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Noot
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 Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2005 5:01 am Post subject: |
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Yeah, I think Luc just caught him off-guard. I also don't think Sasarai was as in-tune with his True Rune as Luc (stronger than Hugo, Geddoe, and Chris maybe, but not the same power as Luc).
| Hrestelan wrote: |
| Also, it's said that Harmonia wants to collect the True Runes. Why stop after Luc's defeat? It ends the war between Grasslands and Harmonia as if it were the main point. |
I think Harmonia withdrew because they realized that they had been puppets of Luc the whole time, and they truly had no purpose in the Grasslands. Sure, Hikusaak wants to collect all the True Runes, but he's also M.I.A. and clearly not the leading voice of Harmonia. Until he reveals himself, his own personal quest will wait.
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Carabbit
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| Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2005 3:53 am Post subject: |
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I don't know if Sasarai was had a stronger connection with his true rune than Geddoe did. Geddoe did have it for quite a bit longer than Sasarai, and could even repel Luc's attempt at first when the crazy little mage was using only his True Wind rune. (This of course, doesn't apply if you chose Geddoe as your FC, because then he would only have had it a short time.)
Maybe it was one of those elemental weakness things. Maybe Wind trumps Earth. There's some deep thinking for you. ^_________^
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Starslasher
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| Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2005 9:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Hrestelan wrote: |
Also, it's said that Harmonia wants to collect the True Runes. Why stop after Luc's defeat? It ends the war between Grasslands and Harmonia as if it were the main point.
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The Holy Kingdom of Harmonia wanted to acquire all of the 27 True Runes. How do you think they would have felt when they found out that Luc wanted to actaully destroy one? Well, assuming that they Luc did tell Sarasai about his intentions. I can't remember too much with the dialogue.
| Hrestelan wrote: |
| So there, another unclear event. So many things needed to be elaborated in chapters 4-5 and were just rushed. Damn it, that's why Suikoden 3 somehow bombed at the end, IMO. |
I think this was done on purpose. I think some of us thought that. Holes were put there to make a "Suikoden II" for SIII i.e. a Suikoden V. Just as Suikoden II helped fill in some holes from SI (e.g. Viktor and Neclord), A sequel Suikoden V would help fill in some gaps, like Geddoe and Yuber. And of course what happened to Pesmerga.
On a different topic, I'm happy that i'll be getting my 10,000 soldiers with this post! YAY for me! I'm going to make it after all!
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Sai Fujiwara
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| Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2005 11:43 pm Post subject: |
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Just browsing around a little, nice to see some spirited discussion, as usual :D
| Hrestelan wrote: |
| This has to be the biggest plot hole IMO. The Oh-so-mighty Harmonia withdraws against a much weaker force after some small skirmishes. Just because a bishop turns traitor? The only reason I can think of is... They're scared of the bearers of the elemental runes. Or something like that. |
Well, now I totally disagree here. No offense, or anything, but as I can see it, this isn't a plot hole at all... It just requires you to do some really deep thinking. To me, what confuses me more, is why not send out your logbowmen & heavy cavalry to just pulvarize the Grassland armies quickly and be done with it? Heck, Harmonia only sent a division or two of infantry, and expected this to be enough to handle the Grassland forces. :? While it was enough, they were also anticipating on the Zexen and Grassland forces to be at odds with one another, and hence were not prepared to defeat such a unified (and highly spirited) army. They must've figured, these fools are constantly killing one another, so we'll just send a large enough force... And by that, I mean just large enough force to deal with the Grassland and Zexen armies. They must've figured that after routing the Grassland armies, that they could storm Brass Castle, then march right into Vinay del Zexay.
Obviously, it appears to me that they didn't take into account the fact that the Zexens might be willing to aid the Grasslanders, and hence the Harmonians had an incredibly hard time trying to take Brass Castle, (which, mind you was a incredibly defensible position and very hard to attack.) Faced not only with the Zexen army, Harmonia now had to fight (at the same time) the left over armies of the six clans at Brass Castle, since they weren't able to wipe them out earlier. They were unprepared (just like their initial siege on Chisa Village) and were forced to withdraw. Certainly Harmonia had the power, and maybe some of the will, irregardless of what Luc's intentions were. I don't believe that Luc's intentions would've, or even should've derailed Harmonia's ambtions of taking the Grasslands, but one thing was certain that doesn't seem to have been mentioned yet...
Just at the end of the battle, the Free Knights of Kamaro, along with some of the Tinto Army had come to assist the Fire Bringer... While (again) Harmonia could've defeated all three nations, this undoubtedly would've eventually led to the intervention of the Dunan Republic. Now, this is the REAL plot hole, IMO... I really don't think that President Teresa Wisemail would stand by idly, while Harmonia attempted to bully around a neighboring nation... I don't understand why maybe some of the Knights of Matilda, or part of the Dunan Army didn't rush to your aid (Lol, imagine an older Camus or Hauser rushing to your aid!), but... Again, I guess only Konami knows the answers there...
The deep thinking has to go with, sure we can do it... But, as with anything, there are consequences to your actions. It would seem as if Harmonia decided to weigh the pros and cons of a continued war, and figured that it wasn't worth the hassle. (And if you ask me, they're lucky that Dunan didn't get involved. More than likely -Especially if Shu got involved- :P they would've coaxed the Fire Bringer Army into liberating Le Buque and the Safir Clan, and quite possibly capturing Caleria...)
In my honest opinion, I really don't know if Suikoden V should have to take place after III... Personally, I want to know more about the world of Suikoden, and especially (FINALLY) get to explore Harmonia in its entirety... Of course, I do realize that the final Suikoden game will have to take place after III... But I already have my own ideas on how that one should go... 8)
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kagematsuri
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| Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2005 1:17 am Post subject: |
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Yeah, Luc that's the gist of it. ^^ You can see that particular scene in Chapter 6/Luc's own chapter. Pretty interesting, IMO.
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Hrestelan
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| Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2005 3:37 pm Post subject: |
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After playing some more S3, I myself came up with some possible and (to me) satisfying answer...
As Geddoe says in Chapter 5 while facing Luc, it should be easy for Harmonia to simultaneously defeat Zexen and the Grasslands. That is, if they *really* wanted to do it. But most probably, Luc and Albert were the ones behind the whole deployment of the army into the Grasslands, Sasarai being a support.
And since they were the leads, Luc's defeat and Albert retiring just ended it all. Not a plot hole after some brainstorming.
Luc taking Sasarai's rune is still dark, though. And Hikusaak's involvement, I don't even dare to get near that subject. |
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kagematsuri
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| Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2005 1:51 am Post subject: |
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How is Luc taking the rune dark? It showed you the scene where he took it.
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Sai Fujiwara
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| Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2005 2:39 am Post subject: |
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As Geddoe says in Chapter 5 while facing Luc, it should be easy for Harmonia to simultaneously defeat Zexen and the Grasslands. That is, if they *really* wanted to do it. But most probably, Luc and Albert were the ones behind the whole deployment of the army into the Grasslands, Sasarai being a support.
And since they were the leads, Luc's defeat and Albert retiring just ended it all. Not a plot hole after some brainstorming. |
I think you might be on to something, Hrestelan. I like the whole political explanation that I came up with :D , but your theory is shorter, more simple and easier to understand. Furthermore, since we must speculate on this (as no real answer is given) your theory holds just as much weight, and I don't see anything wrong with your logic.
However, I do think that Harmonia was actually interested in conquest, not just gathering the True Elemental Runes. Certainly, they make references to the hunt for the True Runes, as Sasarai is seen given a speech to the mercenaries at Caleria. However, I do not think that the Harmonians would've gone so far as to attack Zexen, as there was no evidence of any True Runes being in Zexen as of that time. I think the answer lies in Harmonian ambition (and possibly because of Luc and Albert, as you mentioned.) Personally, I'm pretty certain that Hikusaak had to have played a role in this. Just think on how quickly Luc became Bishop. Sasarai didn't even know who he was, because he wore that mask, so it would seem that someone more powerful than Sasarai must've suggested his ascention. The only person more powerful than Sasarai, within Harmonia, is Hikusaak.
I think Luc, along with Sir Nutflush gave you a good idea of how Luc was able to steal Sasarai's rune at Circle Palace. Sasarai was caught off guard, got sick, and Luc had an easier time stealing the True Rune from him, just the same way he did from Hugo. Also, I believe that Sasarai and Luc have an equal affinity with their True Runes, but this is my assumption, and certainly the scene where Luc steals Sasarai's rune would seem to contradict that theory.
However, I still think that Dunan not being involved is still a plot hole. I can see how that might be considered speculation, but, I think that it is a plot hole. I'm sure Teresa would be interested in restoring relations to the Karaya Clan, as well as being interested in getting in a good swipe at Harmonia for the whole Higheast Rebellion. Of course, Teresa doesn't necessarily strike me as the type for retribution, either, so it makes some sense that they might not rush right in. It's all opinions and speculations and is what makes this site great! :P
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Noot
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| Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2005 3:55 am Post subject: |
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Blue Lightning Flik, this hopefully answers your plothole about Dunan's involvement.
Teresa said all those pretty words to Lucia in SII about how she'll look into the murder of the Karaya leader, and it only leads one to assume that the two are not allied as of SIII (Lucia apparently has moved past her grudge). So I think all she had to do was send a messenger (Hugo riding on Fubar would have sufficed) to Muse to tell them the situation and they'd be sure to have reinforcements, right?
I think all but Matilda would answer. Matilda trades with Harmonia quite often, so if they fought against them for the Grasslands' sake, then that would sacrifice their market. They would remain neutral I think.
I just don't see enough time for Jowston to organize and send a force into the Grasslands. First of all, how would they travel their large army there? They'd have to pass through the mountains by Tinto, and that would take a long time for a force of a good number (say 10,000 soldiers). In the end, they would arrive too late.
Tinto's army, on the other hand, is just a hop and a skip from Brass Castle. I was somewhat surprised that Tinto didn't side with Harmonia, because they've wanted a piece of the Grasslands for a long time (Lilly's involvement played a key role here).
But for Jowston to come to an agreement about action, organize the force, and travel through the mountains by Tinto, then cross several miles to get to Brass Castle, it just seems very unlikely.
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Hrestelan
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| Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2005 10:46 am Post subject: |
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How is Luc taking the rune dark? It showed you the scene where he took it.
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Actually, it's because I didn't really get something that Luc said while taking Geddoe's rune. He said something like "I only need other True Rune, Water, Earth or Lightning to seize them all". That's why I assumed at first that two True Runes were necessary for the procedure of "stealing" another True Rune from its host.
But he took Sasarai's rune without another one, and Sarah using only True Earth got the Water one from Chris. So a little clarification on the whole subject would've been appreciated, since it's not very elaborated in the game.
It's kind of how they don't go into detail about Jimba's sealing of the True Water Rune. At least that last one was clarified in the manga! |
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Sai Fujiwara
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| Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 12:03 am Post subject: |
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| Nutflush wrote: |
Teresa said all those pretty words to Lucia in SII about how she'll look into the murder of the Karaya leader, and it only leads one to assume that the two are not allied as of SIII (Lucia apparently has moved past her grudge). So I think all she had to do was send a messenger (Hugo riding on Fubar would have sufficed) to Muse to tell them the situation and they'd be sure to have reinforcements, right?
I think all but Matilda would answer. Matilda trades with Harmonia quite often, so if they fought against them for the Grasslands' sake, then that would sacrifice their market. They would remain neutral I think.
I just don't see enough time for Jowston to organize and send a force into the Grasslands. First of all, how would they travel their large army there? They'd have to pass through the mountains by Tinto, and that would take a long time for a force of a good number (say 10,000 soldiers). In the end, they would arrive too late.
Tinto's army, on the other hand, is just a hop and a skip from Brass Castle. I was somewhat surprised that Tinto didn't side with Harmonia, because they've wanted a piece of the Grasslands for a long time (Lilly's involvement played a key role here).
But for Jowston to come to an agreement about action, organize the force, and travel through the mountains by Tinto, then cross several miles to get to Brass Castle, it just seems very unlikely. |
Hmm, I think you're on to something, Sir Nutflush. I wasn't aware that Mitilda traded extensively with Harmonia, but at the same time if you talk to one of the traders in Caleria he constantly talks about food from Muse, as well as Higheast Province, so it's only logical to assume that Dunan traded with Harmonia.
Again, I don't see why Lucia didn't ask Hugo to talk to Teresa, you seem to agree with me that she would've helped, so why not? I certainly think that this would've made for a much more interesting plot. Certainly, they would've been unable to fight in the initial battle at Brass Castle, but they certainly could've help stage a counter-offensive at the Safir Village, and Le Buque. Like I said, I really think that this would've made for an interesting twist, and it's a shame that the producers at Konami didn't give us an opportunity to explore the possibilities.
As for Tinto, I completely agree that Lilly was behind that. I think she kind of has a crush on Hugo, but that's total speculation.
I have to dispute some of what you mentioned though, about having to travel through Tinto to reach the Grasslands. If I'm not mistaken, isn't Greenhill supposed to be just south of the Grasslands, and not far away? If it's so far away, why on earth would Alec Wisemail and Gorudo even waste their time worrying about the Karayan tribes? It just wouldn't make any sense, if Grasslands is that far away. Anyway, I did previously mention that I didn't think that they'd arrive until the end of the battle at Brass Castle, and not in time to lend a hand at that first major battle.
Also, I would dispute Mitilda's involvement, too. That is, if all of Dunan was to aid the Grasslanders. One of the main reasons for the war in Suikoden II was to create a powerful central government that could force the states to cooperate and operate as one nation, since the state was in total disarray when Highland invaded. As such, Matilda wouldn't have much of a choice, they'd be helping out, too.
Glad to hear opposing thoughts, though, keep 'em comming, I'll try to reply as best as I can! :D
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Clops
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| Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 12:30 am Post subject: Yubah |
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I read once that Yuber's armor was destroyed when he was attacked by Lucia and a member of the lizard clan between Suikoden 2 and 3. I saw a picture of Yuber running from them. I think it was from a japanese novel, but I don't remember if I saw this on suikosource or what. And I had no idea why he was running from such weak characters, but it didn't tell the whole story of the event.
Since I'm here, I wonder why Suikoden 3 (my favorite in the series) gets thrashed so much and people scrounge for reasons to praise 4. I actually thought 1 and 2 were boring until I beat 3. Then I wanted to know as much as I could about the backstory and beat 1 after that. I played 1 and 2 until about level 30 and forgot about them in the beginning. |
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Rocky
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| Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 3:38 am Post subject: |
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This thread looks great. I look forward to reading it when I get some time. I was just on my way to SARS to post a question, but I figured it could be posted here. It's regarding Harmonia.
What class are members of the Harmonian Southern Frontier Defense Force? I'm not sure if it's stated in the game, but I'd be curious to know as they all (minus Jacques) do not fit the necessary "blonde hair, blue eyes" description that is required for a Harmonian to be a 1st class citizen. However, given their ranking (it appears to be a high ranking position?), is it possible they are 1st class as opposed to 2nd class? Is it addressed?
Thank you. Look forward to reading and maybe posting on the rest of the thread later =D
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Kobold
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| Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 8:59 am Post subject: |
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The southern frontier defence force are not Harmonia. They are merely mercenaries hired by Harmonia, meaning, they're actually not Harmonia citizens. They wouldn't be classified as any of the three classes. All of the members hired have their own weird backgrounds. Like the fact that many of them actually have grudges against Harmonia. So basically, they're neither first nor second nor third since they're not even Harmonian citizens. Just like how Flik and Viktor were not citizens of Jowston, but merely mecenaries hired by Muse.(Although Viktor is from Southwindow by birth)
And regarding an earlier comment about the possibility of Geddoe having better mastery over his rune than Sasarai. Technically, this shouldn't be possible. Sasarai has owned his rune longer than Geddoe actually. Sasarai and Luc are definitely not the same age. Sasarai was created alot longer, meaning he's had his True Earth Rune for a longer time.
Yet, as for why Luc could take Sasarai's rune, one of the reasons already supplied by other members being the fact that Sasarai was under shock, and taken by suprise. Another reason was stated by Luc himself. He mentioned something like "While you were idling your time away in Harmonia, i was working hard" Or something like that. Luc himself had a better mentor to coach him in sorcery. He was basically working hard in the 15 years between S2 and 3, possibly improving himself greatly. Prior to S3, we would have been under the impression that Leknaat is definitely a powerful being, and Luc being her apprentice should not be stronger than her.
But in S3, we've seen Luc mentioning "You can't stop me with that half rune of yours" All these shows that Luc has seriously been working hard on his magical skills, and has reached a level of being an accomplished sorcerer that can hold his own as a True Rune bearer rather well. The fact that he got that future premonition from his rune only after bearing his rune for less than 30 years also supports his improvement. Sasarai on the other hand has stagnated over the years. Even though he's also a mage, and has held his rune for a longer period of time, unlike Luc, he didn't actually went an extra mile to study sorcery and stuff.
This in this sense, Luc IS stronger than Sasarai outrightly, in terms of magic and sorcery and stuff... Which is why he was able to take the rune from Sasarai after sending him into a state of shock with the influx of information.
Now on the Harmonia not simply destroying Grasslands and Zexen. Now, suikoden is a very realistic game. Just because Harmonia has the ability to destroy them doesn't necessarily mean it's wise to do it. Now Harmonia may be all powerful. But face it, a country can't survive alone. Harmonia too has trade with Grasslands and Zexen even if they're not exactly best of pals. At the same time, Dunan and Tinto also has trade with Grasslands and Zexen. This mutual relation is exactly the reason why Harmonia cannot abruptly just march in and wipe out Grasslands and Zexen. Aside from the risk of foreign intervention and the fact that they're making more enemies, there's also the fact that even if it's possible to win, it will take alot of effort. Harmonia will be sacrificing a fare amount of troops to actually wipe out grasslands and Zexen, which means it won't be a smart thing to do.
It would of course be more convenient if they could get true runes without having to go on an outright war with heavy casualties. They may be powerful, but Harmonia isn't exactly a war monger who destroy countries for fun. There're many other factors.
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Thief
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| Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Sasarai is officially 32 years old when Suikoden III took place. Exactly the same as Luc. Geddoe (112) is older than both of them, I'm afraid. |
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