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Kobold
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 Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2004 7:20 am Post subject: Some questions/discussions arising from Suikoden 3 |
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I recently replayed S3, with after playing it, i had some thoughts and queries which i very much wonder and would love to have them answered. Some i think i've asked before, but i'll ask again. I doubt if there are any official answers, but if there are, great! I'd like to be enlightened. If there isn't, discussion would be nice.
The first thing which i'm very bugged about... How EXACTLY did Luc manage to conspire to the position of Bishop without revealing his name or face? Yeah Albert's smart, but i wanna know how he did that. The game says thought Hikusaak, and Sasarai says that he received instructions from Chief Bishop Hikusaak to appoint him, but HOW? Did he manage that?
In Luc's chapter, whe Yuber is sent to assasinate Lizard Chief Zepon, he says "i have an old grudge to settle with Zepon" Now how on earth did Zepon get aquainted with Yuber? And why would Yuber have an "old grudge" with Zepon? Could it be possible Yuber was involved in the first fire bringer war as well? Or what other reason could there be?
Albert learned how to summon Yuber from Leon. That we should all know. But it seems that Albert knows how to summon, and it isn't just Yuber. He is seen summonning a Nariqua towards the end of Chapter 5, when the Flame Champ and Caesar faces him to teleport out. Does this mean that through learning the method of summoning Yuber, Albert also learnt the general summoning method? And if that's the case, does it mean that Summoning is simply a technique one can learn, and one does not need to be magically inclined to do that. Or it is possible that Albert as a strategist learnt some form of sorcery as well, specifically, summoning magic. But of course, he isn't that powerful, and is unable to summon hordes of monsters to battle for him.
Last thing. Is Luc stupid or what? why did he bother trusting Albert? I mean, come on. Albert is a human, Luc himself knows that Albert is only helping him because he wants to gain fame. Towards the end of the events, why would Luc even believe that Albert would stay loyal to him? I mean, come on... Albert is a human, he definitely doesn't want to have the entire continent destroyed. Luc SHOULD know that Albert wouldn't want to have the continent destroyed, meaning he would not be loyal ultimately, unlike Sarah, or even Yuber who had a reason to stay with Luc's cause.
And one last part which isn't really a query or anything to do with the plot, but is something which keeps bugging me... In the Fire bringer's chapters, whenever you fought Yuber, so very oftenly, he will parry your attacks. In facts, he parries so friggin often, and is even seen parrying arrows. He parries more often than any of my own characters with A in parry. Yet, in Luc's chapter, that friggin Yuber didn't even HAVE the friggin Parry skill!!! And obviously, not once did he parry when used in battle... Urgh! That is just something very very annoying!
Ok thats all for now...
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Beecham
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| Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2004 9:17 am Post subject: Re: Some questions/discussions arising from Suikoden 3 |
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| Kobold wrote: |
| I recently replayed S3, with after playing it, i had some thoughts and queries which i very much wonder and would love to have them answered. Some i think i've asked before, but i'll ask again. I doubt if there are any official answers, but if there are, great! I'd like to be enlightened. If there isn't, discussion would be nice. |
Always good to see someone impassioned about GS3. While it isn't my favorite of the series - that would be the second installment - it isn't far behind, either. I'll see what I can do to answer your questions, though I don't quite know the answer to all of them.
| Kobold wrote: |
| The first thing which i'm very bugged about... How EXACTLY did Luc manage to conspire to the position of Bishop without revealing his name or face? Yeah Albert's smart, but i wanna know how he did that. The game says thought Hikusaak, and Sasarai says that he received instructions from Chief Bishop Hikusaak to appoint him, but HOW? Did he manage that? |
This is one answer I do know: Luc may not have revealed himself publically, or to his "brother," but he -did- reveal himself to his "father." His overtures of reconcilliation with Harmonia were, apparently, precisely what Hikusaak wanted to hear, and Luc thus played him like a fine tuned fiddle. Tell anyone what they want to hear, something they want badly enough, and unless they have a good reason to be suspicious, they're going to believe. Luc was kidnapped, remember; his anger with Leknaat, while unrelated to his kidnapping, did not need to be feigned. It seems almost childsplay for him to have woven a tale with just enough truth in it to bring Hikusaak around.
| Kobold wrote: |
| In Luc's chapter, whe Yuber is sent to assasinate Lizard Chief Zepon, he says "i have an old grudge to settle with Zepon" Now how on earth did Zepon get aquainted with Yuber? And why would Yuber have an "old grudge" with Zepon? Could it be possible Yuber was involved in the first fire bringer war as well? Or what other reason could there be? |
This I missed playing through the game. I could offer speculation, but the best I could come up with is agreeing with your musings that perhaps Yuber was involved in the first Fire Bringer War. *shrugs* Sorry I couldn't be more helpful, here.
| Kobold wrote: |
| Albert learned how to summon Yuber from Leon. That we should all know. But it seems that Albert knows how to summon, and it isn't just Yuber. He is seen summonning a Nariqua towards the end of Chapter 5, when the Flame Champ and Caesar faces him to teleport out. Does this mean that through learning the method of summoning Yuber, Albert also learnt the general summoning method? And if that's the case, does it mean that Summoning is simply a technique one can learn, and one does not need to be magically inclined to do that. Or it is possible that Albert as a strategist learnt some form of sorcery as well, specifically, summoning magic. But of course, he isn't that powerful, and is unable to summon hordes of monsters to battle for him. |
I -think- I know this one. It seems, much to my recent surprise, that non-Runic magical ability is more common than I thought. Under normal circumstances, I would look to Albert's forehead for a Blue Gate Rune - just because the game has four very specific summons doesn't mean that the Rune only has those uses from a story perspective - except that I already know that the game engine never bothered to take this into account and alter the 3d model. It would have been easy enough, I think, but.... *sighs* Ah well. Regardless, if he was -capable- of learning the ritual from Leon, I'm going to say it is safe to assume that he - and Leon himself, really - has at least some inborn sorcerous talent. Leon, from all appearances, never trained this ability beyond the need to summon Yuber - after all, his talents lay elsewhere, and surely he could have had others working forh im that were far better at magic - but it seems that Albert for whatever reason trained his abilities further, expanding his abilities at summoning and even learning the teleportation abilities of his companions. Although, perhaps, the teleportation ability could be some sort of Rune. Any number of things could be possible here, and however likely or unlikely the speculation is, we likely won't ever know.
| Kobold wrote: |
| Last thing. Is Luc stupid or what? why did he bother trusting Albert? I mean, come on. Albert is a human, Luc himself knows that Albert is only helping him because he wants to gain fame. Towards the end of the events, why would Luc even believe that Albert would stay loyal to him? I mean, come on... Albert is a human, he definitely doesn't want to have the entire continent destroyed. Luc SHOULD know that Albert wouldn't want to have the continent destroyed, meaning he would not be loyal ultimately, unlike Sarah, or even Yuber who had a reason to stay with Luc's cause. |
Hah! No more than Hikusaak really, but that isn't saying much for Luc's defense ;) Tell someone what they want to hear, what they truly want to believe.... Luc is naive. That much seems obvious. A Silverberg proved himself silver tongued enough to fool a boy like Luc - and yes, I know that in GS3 he was older than I am now, but he -still- seems like a boy to me - which honestly doesn't surprise me at all.
| Kobold wrote: |
And one last part which isn't really a query or anything to do with the plot, but is something which keeps bugging me... In the Fire bringer's chapters, whenever you fought Yuber, so very oftenly, he will parry your attacks. In facts, he parries so friggin often, and is even seen parrying arrows. He parries more often than any of my own characters with A in parry. Yet, in Luc's chapter, that friggin Yuber didn't even HAVE the friggin Parry skill!!! And obviously, not once did he parry when used in battle... Urgh! That is just something very very annoying!
Ok thats all for now... |
Hmm. Never even noticed that. That -is- rather annoying, now that you point it out. |
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Kobold
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| Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2004 1:36 pm Post subject: |
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Actually, i'm not that all passionate about S3 either, as compared to the other suikodens, which is exactly why S3 is the only series i still have queries about...
And thanks for the answers. They were rather useful at least to me. I'd have thought Luc did reveal himself to Hikusaak, but i needed a definite answer. But this would then again prove that Hikusaak is very much alive and well, and not missing in action as some people claim.
As for Albert, i don't think he knows how to teleport himself. I'd rather believe that teleportation is reserved for people who are skilled with magic, or certain creatures. Which is why Albert had to summon the Nariqua to teleport for him in chapter 5. It IS possible Albert has a Pale/Blue gate stuck on his forehead... Afterall, he does have the tutor skill, which suggests he might be good with runic magic...
And Luc IS like a kid... Although relative to normal humans, he's middle-aged already at 30, but as a true rune bearer, he's still a child as Wyatt/Jimba pointed out before his death. He's only been cursed as he says by a true rune for 30 years and he's grumbling. Sierra should slap some sense into him for being the oldest creature alive...
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Axiose
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| Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2004 3:16 pm Post subject: |
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Kobold wrote:
In Luc's chapter, whe Yuber is sent to assasinate Lizard Chief Zepon, he says "i have an old grudge to settle with Zepon" Now how on earth did Zepon get aquainted with Yuber? And why would Yuber have an "old grudge" with Zepon? Could it be possible Yuber was involved in the first fire bringer war as well? Or what other reason could there be?
This I missed playing through the game. I could offer speculation, but the best I could come up with is agreeing with your musings that perhaps Yuber was involved in the first Fire Bringer War. *shrugs* Sorry I couldn't be more helpful, here. |
I don't think it's official but it is highly theorised that Yuber took part in the first Fire Bringer war. Logically you can see that Yuber would want to take part in a conflict of that magnitude, and especially as that would've been the time around which Zepon would have been an active warrior (much like his predecessor in Suikoden III was active in the war). So it is fairly likely that he took part.
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| And one last part which isn't really a query or anything to do with the plot, but is something which keeps bugging me... In the Fire bringer's chapters, whenever you fought Yuber, so very oftenly, he will parry your attacks. In facts, he parries so friggin often, and is even seen parrying arrows. He parries more often than any of my own characters with A in parry. Yet, in Luc's chapter, that friggin Yuber didn't even HAVE the friggin Parry skill!!! And obviously, not once did he parry when used in battle... Urgh! That is just something very very annoying! |
I'd say that's more story based than gameplay itself.
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Thief
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| Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2004 8:06 pm Post subject: |
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It's interesting to note that while Hikusaak approved to appoint the Man in a Mask as a bishop, he wasn't present at such an important ceremony. Doesn't that count as being missing in action? Or, worse, maybe he's a physically challenged now that he can no longer move and attend it in person, who knows?
Either there is a direct contact between Luc and Hikusaak (as you said), or the conspiracy actually did begin even before Luc's admission into the Kingdom's ranks and thus becoming a Bishop was part of the plan. If Hikusaak was absent (or did not make direct contact with his people), anything was possible. Especially with Albert's help.
I'd assume that Zepon and Yuber had a meeting in battle previously. Coming to the conclusion that this was indeed the original Fire Bringer War isn't too far off, in fact a strong one, but it's not exactly very conclusive either.
As for summoning of Yuber, I'd view is similar to contracting with demons, instead of merely simple sorcery. After all, Yuber did insist that he was helping out with Luc's cause because he was promised 'chaos' in return for his service. As for the Nariqua, I imagined Sarah lent it to him for the teleporting ability, since he's the only Destroyer without such natural ability. But, you're right. Albert becoming proficient in summoning isn't too unbelievable, but Leon sure kept the skill to himself throughout the first two Suikoden games.
Luc and Albert. Perhaps ultimately it's just a contest of wit between the two. They wanted to use each other's specialty to bring forth personal objectives. But in the end, I too believed Luc was tricked by Albert's sweet words. He was totally into his "perfect suicide" that he ended up being so easily bought by the strategist's devious ways. Too bad, o great Masked Bishop. |
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Noot
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| Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2004 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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Well, remember that it was Leon who brought out the full power of the Beast Rune, and Yuber's appearance in SII could have been due to Leon's involvement. So I think it's actually a very good bet that Leon was a master strategist and a very capable mage. He only wore one hat at a time though, it seemed.
Albert could have learned the technique from Sarah as well.
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luc
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| Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2004 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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ther is no way we can answer your fist question from what we know of Harmonia they could pit magic users agianst each other and the winner gets the title of bishop
Yuber was in the first Fire Bringer war Geddoe and him also new each other plus in the opining Zepon has a scar on his face probely from Yuber.
Albert learned summoning from Luc witch he states he learned from Lekaant.
Luc never trusted Albret he was knew the Silverberg family and thier way he thought that by that time he would have finished. |
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Filipe
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| Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2004 11:16 pm Post subject: |
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To be honest I have never really bothered to do Luc's chapter as I usually just went and did something else on some other game or just went about starting a new game over. Your statements of the questions that have been posed due to certain things that took place within the game certainly makes me want to finish the game again pretty quick so I could judge it for myself.
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Starslasher
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| Posted: Sat Jan 01, 2005 10:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Luc wrote: |
Yuber was in the first Fire Bringer war Geddoe and him also new each other plus in the opining Zepon has a scar on his face probely from Yuber.
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Where in the opening? I can only remember seeing Dupa there, not any other Lizard. I'll have to check it again...
| Kobold wrote: |
| The first thing which i'm very bugged about... How EXACTLY did Luc manage to conspire to the position of Bishop without revealing his name or face? |
My answer would be very close to Harukaze's. Luc requested to return back to his Holy Kingdom of Harmonia, and Sarasai vouched for him being a Bishop and voila, he is the Masked Bishop.
| Kobold wrote: |
| In Luc's chapter, whe Yuber is sent to assasinate Lizard Chief Zepon, he says "i have an old grudge to settle with Zepon" Now how on earth did Zepon get aquainted with Yuber? |
Aye, I would agree that Yuber was in fact participating in the First Fire Bringer War, and came upon a younger and quicker (you would have to be much quicker to fight Yuber!) Zepon and perhaps a younger and a two-eyed Geddoe (I wonder why no one asked how he got that eyepatch). Maybe thanks to the True Lightning Rune, Geddoe managed to keep Yuber at bay. Who knows, maybe Windy, Neclord and Yuber were there, trying to take back the True Fire, Water and Lightning Runes. But i guess the creators wanted to leave that to the player's imaginations.
| Kobold wrote: |
| Albert learned how to summon Yuber from Leon. That we should all know. But it seems that Albert knows how to summon, and it isn't just Yuber. He is seen summonning a Nariqua towards the end of Chapter 5, when the Flame Champ and Caesar faces him to teleport out. Does this mean that through learning the method of summoning Yuber, Albert also learnt the general summoning method? |
As others suggested, perhaps Albert and Leon have great magical potential, but never took the next step to get a Rune for themselves. But the magic system is not still not entirely revealed. Sarah seemed to have learned the lost art of teleporting, since she didn't seem to need a rune (remember the fight against Luc and Geddoe back in Chapter 5, in Mt. Senai? And you see those Wind and Lightning and Earth rune icons pop up). But then again...Albert and Leon could have had a magician in their keep, who helped summoning Yuber by their instruction. That would be my theory.
| Kobold wrote: |
| Last thing. Is Luc stupid or what? why did he bother trusting Albert? |
Well, I'm not sure about Luc's IQ, But i would assume that he would be pretty smart :P . But seriously, he pretty much only needed Albert's administrative and tactical skills to help him reach his goal. Others touched this as well, so i won't say anymore.
| Kobold wrote: |
| And one last part which isn't really a query or anything to do with the plot, but is something which keeps bugging me... In the Fire bringer's chapters, whenever you fought Yuber, so very oftenly, he will parry your attacks. In facts, he parries so friggin often, and is even seen parrying arrows. He parries more often than any of my own characters with A in parry. Yet, in Luc's chapter, that friggin Yuber didn't even HAVE the friggin Parry skill!!! And obviously, not once did he parry when used in battle... Urgh! That is just something very very annoying! |
Yeah! What's up with that?!
Er, not wanting to be picky here, but you said that "He parries more often than any of my own characters with A in parry." Well, i don't know about people's skills and all. Sometimes they just don't work. Edge can get an "A" in Counter Attack. But he doesn't seem to always take his blows. He never parries and he never counterattacks. Same with Watari. He's got an "S" in that, but doesn't bother. I don't know why, but sometimes the skills don't work at times.
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luc
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| Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2005 6:16 am Post subject: |
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Where in the opening? I can only remember seeing Dupa there, not any other Lizard. I'll have to check it again...
The chief that Geddoe talks to in the dark Zepon has a scar that runs across his face and has a head-dress they show him brefly in the opining movie. |
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Hrestelan
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| Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2005 7:36 am Post subject: |
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Hikusaak's role is keep hidden in S3, as much as himself. I don't think he'd be stupid enough to see Luc before him without knowing he's the vessel for the True Wind Rune, the very one he created.
He made Luc a bishop for a reason, but for what? As if he wanted Luc to carry on his plan. What was the relationship between them?
Also, it's said that Harmonia wants to collect the True Runes. Why stop after Luc's defeat? It ends the war between Grasslands and Harmonia as if it were the main point.
This has to be the biggest plot hole IMO. The Oh-so-mighty Harmonia withdraws against a much weaker force after some small skirmishes. Just because a bishop turns traitor? The only reason I can think of is... They're scared of the bearers of the elemental runes. Or something like that. |
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Kobold
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| Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2005 7:42 am Post subject: |
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which is why we all should pray and hope that suikoden 5 will occur not too long after the plot in S3, so that all these annoying lose ends will be tied up and answered. S5 BETTER be a plot after S3...
Well anyway, thanks for all your various answers so far...
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kagematsuri
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| Posted: Thu Jan 06, 2005 1:38 am Post subject: Re: Some questions/discussions arising from Suikoden 3 |
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| Kobold wrote: |
Last thing. Is Luc stupid or what? why did he bother trusting Albert? I mean, come on. Albert is a human, Luc himself knows that Albert is only helping him because he wants to gain fame. Towards the end of the events, why would Luc even believe that Albert would stay loyal to him? I mean, come on... Albert is a human, he definitely doesn't want to have the entire continent destroyed. Luc SHOULD know that Albert wouldn't want to have the continent destroyed, meaning he would not be loyal ultimately, unlike Sarah, or even Yuber who had a reason to stay with Luc's cause.
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Near the end of Luc's chapter when the four of them are at the Ceremonial Site, Luc makes some remark to Albert about his loyalty. I haven't played the game in months so I can't remember exactly what but it seemed like Luc did suspect Albert wasn't entirely loyal, but he basically just brushed it off. Guess he didn't really expect Albert to betray him. *cough*naive*cough*
| Kobold wrote: |
And one last part which isn't really a query or anything to do with the plot, but is something which keeps bugging me... In the Fire bringer's chapters, whenever you fought Yuber, so very oftenly, he will parry your attacks. In facts, he parries so friggin often, and is even seen parrying arrows. He parries more often than any of my own characters with A in parry. Yet, in Luc's chapter, that friggin Yuber didn't even HAVE the friggin Parry skill!!! And obviously, not once did he parry when used in battle... Urgh! That is just something very very annoying!
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Oh jeez, that's like how Sarah could cast Pale Gate magic on your party but then in Luc's chapter she has a permanent Flowing rune on her forehead. Darned game designers. |
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Hrestelan
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| Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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I don't want to let this topic go down without mentioning another huge plot hole (unless it's explained somehow in the manga... gotta get that).
How did Luc acquire the True Earth Rune? Before taking Geddoe's rune, he explains that he needs two True Runes to "steal" it. But he only had his True Wind by the time he met Sasarai, so how did he got away with True Earth? Are we supposed to assume Sasarai handed it over? Or did Yuber appear and sliced off Sasarai's arm (being later re-implanted of course)?
So there, another unclear event. So many things needed to be elaborated in chapters 4-5 and were just rushed. Damn it, that's why Suikoden 3 somehow bombed at the end, IMO. |
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luc
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| Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Sasari got sick from learning what he and Luc are which weakened him or he may have passed out. |
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