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iscalio
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 Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2005 6:43 am Post subject: |
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| Black Fang wrote: |
One thing that contradicts god being Omnipotent that I took back in my first year Logic class.
If got CANNOT create a stone that is too heavy for him to lift, then he is NOT omnipotent since he cannot create that stone.
If got CAN create a stone that is too heavy for him to lift, then he is NOT omnipotent since he cannot lift that stone. |
God as he is conceptualized in Judaism, Christianity and Islam cannot do things which are logically impossible. A rock which is so heavy that not even God can lift it is simply not possible, since weight is no constraint for God at all. Just because you can say it doesn't mean it is possible. Even God cannot act against pure logic. This does not - of course - imply that the concept of logic is above God, but rather that the concept of logic is a mode of action of God and he does not want to act against himself.
God envelopes perfect Knowledge, Will and Power. He knows everything and therefore knows what is best. His perfect Will wants only what is best since it's perfect. His Omnipotence fulfills everything he wants, which is what is best. He cannot do something what is not good because this would contradict his perfect knowledge and benevolent will.
| Saben wrote: |
| My belief is that if a God or gods exist then they take a passive role.... They created the earth but now they let things take their own path with minimal interferance; |
Since God is above, is beyond time he is not immersed in time. Therefore he exists in perferct eternal present. He therefore cannot ever change, since change requires time, he is the one and the same. Therefore his act of creation never stopped, he constantly creates and preserves everything. His creation lasts only "one moment" for God, but God himself is only this "one moment" in eternity. We on the other hand are part of creation, as is time, and therefore we perceive in time. Because of this we have to perceive creation as temporal, which is why astrological cosmology and evolution are part of strict monotheistic teachings.
Of course this is only relevant within monothesitic religions.
The theodizee problem which THe_Hot_Ice mentioned is one of the greatest problem of strict monotheisim (Judaism, Christianity, Islam), but there exist numerous solutions for it. They're too complex to post them here, though. It would require too much time. If you're interested, read some books. |
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Sophita
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| Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2005 9:07 am Post subject: |
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| Sinocard wrote: |
| Do not think that with this I wish to diss any of you but the fact is that God an religion exist only to hinder humans. |
Uhm, in Catholicism, God exists, and more importantly to the religion itself, you believe Jesus is God. God-Jesus-Holy Spirit/Ghost = Holy Trinity. 3 in one God. It's pretty much the main belief of the religion. What you say pretty much is completely against that.
| Quote: |
| Tower of Babilon - why would he stop humans in their development |
Because humans were trying to be greater than God: "Come, let us build ourselves a city, and a tower with its top in the heavens, and let us make a name for ourselves, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth."
They were inspiring revolution against God.
And we all speak the same language when we're born, really; it's only as we grow that we learn English/Japanese/Chinese/Wookie.
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[quote="Death"]i've got enough talking about the serious stuff, so does christian teaching really have santas and angels ?
maybe santa is more (highly) unlikely to exist, but are angels different from holy spirits / ghosts ? |
Can't speak for all Christian schools, but I did go to Catholic school, and Catholic School teaches on both, but -
a) Santa is only taught about as Saint Nicholas. In the younger grades, I remember the question of Santa being "alive" was avoided, as was St. Nick's death date but you did learn the legend surrounding him.* In older grades (Jr High) they didn't avoid saying St. Nick had died so much, IIRC, but mentioned that people were often inspired to carry on the Christmas season in honor of him. We also played Santa to the younger grades - they would leave shoes out, and we would give them Candy and little toys and the like.
b) Angels were taught, both in specifics and general. They're God's messengers, ministers of God, and agents of revalation. Angels were covered by name; you learned about Gabriel, Michael, Beezlebub, Lucifer/Satan, etc. Less time spend on the classes of Angels that you might get with Jewish teachings but still covered a bit of it. (Seraphim, Cherubim, etc.)
* And truthfully, St. Nick only came up at Christmas time in the younger grades - work on the Saints was usually avoided until you were closer to confirmation, when you'd learn about several and, in fact, had to do research on many more, as you choose to take on a Saint's name as one of your confirmation names (in my experience, anyway; I know several people don't get to choose theirs, as it is often chosen for them).
| Quote: |
| maybe santa is more (highly) unlikely to exist, but are angels different from holy spirits / ghosts ? |
The Holy Spirit, in Christianity, is considered to be part of the Blessed Trinity, and thus, God himself. Holy Ghost is another name for Holy Spirit. Most Christian demoninations use Holy Sprit now, as "ghost" has taken on the meaning of being a disembodied dead soul and lost it's use as being a person's spirit or soul. But some still do use Holy Ghost - Mormons do, I'm relatively sure. (Saben, can you confirm that for me?)
Angels, on the other hand, are spiritual beings that assist God.
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| cute kids' stuff :D . |
Uhm, no offense, but it is incredibly offensive that you call angels "kids stuff"; Judiasm, Christianity, Islam all believe in angels. I don't think you meant it as thus, but in topics like this, that can start flame wars, so you might want to consider your words carefully.
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| by the way, is it told in the bible how the three-what-men knew about the birth of jesus ? |
They saw his star in the east and came to worship him:
| Matthew 2 wrote: |
After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem 2and asked, "Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star in the east and have come to worship him."
When King Herod heard this he was disturbed, and all Jerusalem with him.
When he had called together all the people's chief priests and teachers of the law, he asked them where the Christ was to be born.
"In Bethlehem in Judea," they replied, "for this is what the prophet has written:
" ‘But you, Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, are by no means least among the rulers of Judah; for out of you will come a ruler who will be the shepherd of my people Israel.'"
Then Herod called the Magi secretly and found out from them the exact time the star had appeared. He sent them to Bethlehem and said, "Go and make a careful search for the child. As soon as you find him, report to me, so that I too may go and worship him."
After they had heard the king, they went on their way, and the star they had seen in the east went ahead of them until it stopped over the place where the child was. When they saw the star, they were overjoyed. On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him. |
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Saben
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| Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2005 11:08 am Post subject: |
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| iscalio wrote: |
Since God is above, is beyond time he is not immersed in time. Therefore he exists in perferct eternal present. He therefore cannot ever change, since change requires time, he is the one and the same. Therefore his act of creation never stopped, he constantly creates and preserves everything. His creation lasts only "one moment" for God, but God himself is only this "one moment" in eternity. We on the other hand are part of creation, as is time, and therefore we perceive in time. Because of this we have to perceive creation as temporal, which is why astrological cosmology and evolution are part of strict monotheistic teachings.
Of course this is only relevant within monothesitic religions. |
Well, by creation I mean "man and the world as we know it coming into being", yes the creation process is still going on, that is why the world and man continue to change and evolve. A stop to creation would imply an end point, a total stagnation in and of the Universe which is obviously not the case. Scientists talk about the Big Bang as an explanation of why the Universe continues to expand however theologically it is possible that the expansion of the Universe is simply a result of the contual creation of God.
However this does conflict with the Biblical account which says that the seventh day was God's day of rest (with the subtext implying, in my opinion, that he was resting from creation), it also conflicts with the Biblical idea of the creation as seperate stages all of which are set in the past tense.
In fact I agree with the idea of a constant creator to some degree, I just don't believe that he takes an active role in interfering, things have always been in motion and moving in the way which God desires so there is no need for him to take free choice away from things and 'interfere'. I'm still not convinced that a "constant creator" meshes with mainstream Christian Theology, though.
| iscalio wrote: |
| The theodizee problem which THe_Hot_Ice mentioned is one of the greatest problem of strict monotheisim (Judaism, Christianity, Islam), but there exist numerous solutions for it. They're too complex to post them here, though. It would require too much time. If you're interested, read some books. |
Wouldn't a simple explanation be that God knows that negative experiences lead to a "greater good"? He wants as many people as possible to go to heaven and people usually (not always) try to become better people if they live through hardships. Thousands of deaths could cause millions of believers so while He may not sit down and think "how can I cause faith through destruction today?" He may well just have put things into place in the beginning so that there was a possibility of it happening and now that it does happen He has no reason to interfere.
EDIT: I didn't see Sophita's post before I hit the reply button- that is one of the only problems about posting things that are big and long.
| Sophita wrote: |
| The Holy Spirit, in Christianity, is considered to be part of the Blessed Trinity, and thus, God himself. Holy Ghost is another name for Holy Spirit. Most Christian demoninations use Holy Spirit now, as "ghost" has taken on the meaning of being a disembodied dead soul and lost it's use as being a person's spirit or soul. But some still do use Holy Ghost - Mormons do, I'm relatively sure. (Saben, can you confirm that for me?) |
LDS members use both "Holy Ghost" and "Holy Spirit" interchangably but they have the same meaning, I think recently Holy Spirit might be being used more commonly for the reasons you mentioned- specifically clarity, but the LDS Church is perhaps somewhat behind the 8-ball on making it official. The Mormon idea of the 'Godhead' is basically the same concept as the Trinity, although the Theology is vastly different and the Holy Spirit is a part of the Godhead. He is a spirit, not a ghost, although he is a distinct being from God and Jesus (who are also distinct from each other). Mormon Theology says all three are distinct beings who are one in purpose, Jesus is literally the son of God and who was conceived by Mary through God's power. Everyone was originally spirit that used to dwell with God and the purpose of coming to Earth is to gain a physical body. The Holy Spirit is a spirit like we used to be, but he is yet to come to Earth to gain a body, if I remember correctly he will be born on Earth after the Second Coming of the Saviour because once Jesus returns to reign during the Millenium the comforter will no longer be needed. I think that's already more than you asked to know, though! Any more questions and I'll be happy to answer them. |
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Vextor
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| Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2005 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Sophita, Queen of all Falena wrote: |
Uhm, no offense, but it is incredibly offensive that you call angels "kids stuff"; Judiasm, Christianity, Islam all believe in angels. I don't think you meant it as thus, but in topics like this, that can start flame wars, so you might want to consider your words carefully. |
Just to be nitpicky, angels exist in Zoroastrianism as well--they even have angels that correspond to the rest of the Abrahamic religions. |
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Serge
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| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2005 11:06 am Post subject: |
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| I don't believe in any religion so I can't tell which one is right or wrong. |
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kuwaizair
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| Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2005 11:29 am Post subject: |
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speeking of reliigon, I saw this funny MST of a Jack Chick track. anway Jack Chick is a good comedian.
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0074/0074_01.asp
(can i link to the MSTed one?
anway, I hope most of the people here have reserch and not just feeling, really.
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Or at least use things others have said, I saw somone make an entry in their LJ in 01 about how sad she is "because when they die the're gone", she was talking about all her friends who we're her religion (some brance of Christainatiy or somthing) really, thats just crule I mean if you were anything but what she is, when you die you don't get a soul, only people of her religion are alllowed to.
how can you have tolerance and fluff for this? I mean I get to have an afterlife...but you don't because you aren't friends with my god.
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anway, I have my own ideas, spawned form infulances of feeling and others. Do you seriously think God wants us "to know what (it) knows"? really that would be a challange, or become like or the same, even better than god. What is the kick in the butt is that what we need is "hidden" in places that are "bad/evil/shaodwy/dark" anway yeah, thats why those are bad, ask a tree it'll tell you, you'll be burned alive for it..
also according to some people, those of you who are role playing aren't very religous/serious/holy either.
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Pilika
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| Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2005 6:13 am Post subject: |
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Also in the story of Adam and Eve they ate from the tree of recognization? So what if they recognized that God is not all good, that he has a part of him that is evil? Also if God did not have evil in him there would not be evil people or fallen angels. There is an interesting theory saying that Lucifer came to recognize evil in him thus recognizing it in God which made him rebel. Also there is a theory that God and Saton are the same person
God - the creator
Saton- the oppresed one, the destroyer
When God realized his evil part (wheater it was from Lucifer or Adam and Eve) he created a whole part of him which he threw away - Saton. |
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Suikomaniac
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| Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2005 8:06 am Post subject: |
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Well, I believe in Christianity. I really like to keep my beliefs to myself though. Because in my house, I'm really the only one and I'm not perfect. But after you get saved..you should repent from your sins. I also deeply hate the extremists who say if you eat the green part of the watermelon you'll go to hell or base it off of Music Choices and Life.
I was told you are saved if you understand the bible which I do and see how many dont. But I ain't gonna call someone stupid though |
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kuwaizair
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| Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2005 1:26 pm Post subject: |
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oh thats all find and good for you, but the universe dosen't agree.
the god-satin is the same thing sounds plausable, but to "pagan", other people have twofaced gods, but not "this one" they need somthing hip and new, its black and white. only good and evil.
its good for plenty of "fantasy stories", like destroying both to set a new age, or making "god one again", or "god" being a pawn for a higher being.
i'd like to meet the puppetier of the gods, and trick the devil itsself. tricking the devil shows how good you are no? if his antcis are so hard not to be sucked into, like the allure of roleplay, pleasure and all things that don't involve self flaguation.
go read some jack. its funny.
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St. Ajora
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| Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2005 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Sinocard wrote: |
| Also in the story of Adam and Eve they ate from the tree of recognization? |
There is no such tree as the recognization. It was the Tree of Life. There is a huge difference. Before that, they were without modesty and "sight" for their nakedness (among many other things).
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| So what if they recognized that God is not all good, that he has a part of him that is evil? |
Like I said, it is not the "Tree of Recognization". And such a suggestion is completely ridiculous. God created them, told them not to disobey and they did. Now, I think that's pretty much the fault of Eve and Adam, and perhaps even Lucifer, but how would they recognize the so called evil in God? A creator who loves His creations and wishes for them to live a most noble and good life possible, to accept them into eternal life? I think you got a lot of your facts wrong.
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| Also if God did not have evil in him there would not be evil people or fallen angels. |
Maybe that has something to do with free will. Maybe God did create evil. Does that suggest that He was evil Himself? Do we always blame the parents for when their kid commits a crime? Sometimes, you can be the best parent you can be, and your child can still choose to lead a life of wrong doing. I'm not saying that that situation can be applied to God and angels, but it's similar. "Evil" is a concept. Just like "wrong" is. God created us, but did he create our thoughts, our motives, our feelings? Did God instill evil within us and then "Create" it in our minds? That's stretching it.
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| There is an interesting theory saying that Lucifer came to recognize evil in him thus recognizing it in God which made him rebel. |
Theories are made up by compiling facts and evidence; you can't just make one up and then have a lack of proof. Lucifer wanted to be more powerful than God, end of story. It was more to it than that, but there is nothing to suggest that Lucifer recognized evil within himself and God. That's ridiculous. The reason he fell was for selfish, greedy reasons, not some half good, half bad motif. You may have interpreted it differently, but that whole story is an objective one...
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| Also there is a theory that God and Saton are the same person |
Also ridiculous, and a bit offensive to me. What "theory"? Some moronic statement that has no backing from the Christian community at all? How can God rule the heavens and rule whatever version of hell or purgatory and be two seperate, opposite entities combined? Well, very easily, I suppose, but come ON. There is NOTHING to suggest that they are the same person. This is one of the most silly things I have ever seen in a religious discussion. Maybe it's possible, but it's not, since there are stories related to God and Lucifer that completely contradict that. Plus, it is accepted that Jesus is God in flesh and blood- how come God argued with himself when the Devil tried to tempt Jesus? There is no credibility behind this "theory" at all.
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| When God realized his evil part (wheater it was from Lucifer or Adam and Eve) he created a whole part of him which he threw away - Saton. |
Man oh man. God is not an angel! Humans aren't angels. They are seperate entities God MADE angels. He did not "throw away" part of himself which was "evil" because that just f's up just about every myth and story in the bible and everything that is accepted in the Christian community. I really think you need to read up on some bible studies or read the actual book before you start posting content like this because it's just not true at all :P I seriously hope you don't believe any of that.
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| I was told you are saved if you understand the bible which I do and see how many dont. But I ain't gonna call someone stupid though |
No...you get saved if you believe in Christ. The bible has nothing to do with it. You believe in, or worship or love Christ, up you go. I personally believe that all good people, regardless of religion, regardless of sin, will make it through the afterlife peacefully. But don't listen to anyone telling you that you have to understand the bible to go to heaven. If we understood it, religious and non religious people alike wouldn't still be arguing over its authenticity and meaning.
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| the god-satin is the same thing sounds plausable, but to "pagan", other people have twofaced gods, but not "this one" they need somthing hip and new, its black and white. only good and evil |
What are you talking about? Hip and new? What are you dare suggesting? Please stop posting so bluntly, because it may rub people the wrong way (namely me). I've already refuted your God Satan "thing" (in a rather poor explanation, sue me) and pagans aren't "other people".
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| its good for plenty of "fantasy stories", like destroying both to set a new age, or making "god one again", or "god" being a pawn for a higher being. |
I'd rather you not compare my beliefs to fun fantasy stories and their worth, nor mention destroying God. |
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Nihilive
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| Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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I believe heavily in Pascal's wager, but question that if there is in fact a deity that governs us all, that he would be aware of such a wager. I used to be an atheist, but I have become a daoist.
I accept that there must be some higher force, whether they be creator aliens or an omnipotent god, but I do not accept the dogma of scriptures written by man. |
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Vextor
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| Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2005 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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| I can't go into much detail because I am on limited time, but the discussion on Satan was quite incorrect. For those who are interested in learning about the development of the concept of "Satan," I strongly suggest reading "Origins of Satan" by the Princeton scholar, Elaine Pagel. She is one hell of a good writer, and her books are pretty easy for normal people to read. |
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Deleted User 1
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| Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2005 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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| well if you want information on the visions of satan and such... I heard that Dante's inferno' novel has a lot of information in this and pictures of the possible hell and satan and such... |
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Sophita
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| Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2005 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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You do realize Dante's Inferno* are all made up by Dante and have next to nothing to do with the religious beliefs of the time, right? *sweatdrops*
* Part of the Divine Comedy, which also features Dante's ideas of Purgatory & Heaven
On the subject of religiously-inspired literature, though, for an interesting portrayl of Satan, read Milton's Paradise Lost.
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Deleted User 1
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| Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2005 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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| actually I didn't know that... I was studying visions of the devil for a project in college and was advised this and after hearing/reading wat High Priest Saben posted I thought that I should see what happens when I post that... well thanks a lot for the info then... |
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