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Tron Bonne
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 Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Leb wrote: |
What do you mean by "defend themselves"? These are always quick strikes that end in moments. Do you mean that you believe both sides should retaliate?
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yes. I think there should be retaliation. On both sides. I just think the Jews should retaliate even harder, since they are trying to keep their land.
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iscalio
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| Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 8:22 pm Post subject: |
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| The badguy from Tron wrote: |
| yes. I think there should be retaliation. On both sides. I just think the Jews should retaliate even harder, since they are trying to keep their land. |
I think your position is awful, badguy from Tron. Awful and sad. |
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Leb
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| Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 9:33 pm Post subject: |
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| iscalio wrote: |
| You are heavily misunderstanding the meaning of the word islam. It has certainly nothing whatsoever to do with conversion. It relates to the submission of the faithful before God, not to the submission of the "heathen" before the muslim conquerer. |
The word Islam means "submission to God's will". I don't presume to know as much as you in this subject, but I was taught that submission in that context is ambiguous. |
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Filipe
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| Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 9:40 pm Post subject: |
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This isnt a war of retaliation and counter retaliation it's a war of attack and reprisal. The Jews for some time were more than content on living peacefully and for quite some time did nothing at all. The entire time the Palestineans continued to blow themselves up killing innocent men, women, and children who were out shopping, walking down the street, or at a club with their friends. Thats what was happening on an almost weekly basis and what did not retaliating and trying to make peace get them? Absolutely nothing. Whats ironic about the whole situation now is that now that the Israeli's are finally fighting back and trying to do something to stop their own people from being killed the world makes them out to be a bad guys. Last time i checked defending yourself from people trying to kill you because you exist does not make you the bad guy but thats just me.
However due to the situation as it is that I just mentioned it is more like why should the Israeli's not respond when they are attacked? It would just reign in more attacks just like the last time. While a lot of the things the Israelies do I dont personally agree with their right to fight back is something I will back the whole time. Thats like saying, the US shouldnt have gone after Al Qaeda following 9/11.
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Leb
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| Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 9:51 pm Post subject: |
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| As long as Israel has been a nation, they have always defended themselves. Hell, they actually expanded their territory in some cases. |
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Tron Bonne
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| Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 9:56 pm Post subject: |
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| iscalio wrote: |
I think your position is awful, badguy from Tron. Awful and sad. |
well, that's fine if you disagree with me. this is a forum, and forums are where people voice their opinions and views on topics.
but for the record, I'm going to be biased towards the Jews, since I am one.
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Leb
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| Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 9:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Are you good at jokes? Do you know Mel Brooks?! |
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Weyoun
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| Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 9:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Leb wrote: |
| As long as Israel has been a nation, they have always defended themselves. Hell, they actually expanded their territory after the Six-Day War. |
Yea and the Yom Kippur war as well. How could they attack on Yom Kippur? its unhuman!!!
But of course they did give the territory back to Egypt, right? Sorry have not been to Hebrew School in awhile, thats effected my memory a bit.
| The badguy from Tron wrote: |
but for the record, I'm going to be biased towards the Jews, since I am one. |
Yay another we have another Jew here. Even better he is also a fan of Family Guy. But hey isn't every Jew a fan of Family Guy?
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Tron Bonne
The party members you never use
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| Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 10:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Leb wrote: |
| Are you good at jokes? Do you know Mel Brooks?! |
yeah. I'd say I'm funny. and I don't know Mel Brooks personally. One day, though, I might get to meet him.
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Kohaku
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| Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 10:13 am Post subject: |
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| Badguy from Tron wrote: |
| but for the record, I'm going to be biased towards the Jews, since I am one. |
Well, it's alright I think. This is a free forum, I am a Muslim myself and you may find one time or two that I speak in the favor of Palestine. But I'll try to be objective and neutral whenever possible, and I hope you do the same too. I don't hate the Jews, no, I believe we shouldn't let action by some people lead us to a conclusion that the whole community are like that. It just like considered every Muslim as barbarous and such after 9/11 tragedy, which I didn't like.
| Felipe wrote: |
| The entire time the Palestineans continued to blow themselves up killing innocent men, women, and children who were out shopping, walking down the street, or at a club with their friends |
Well, when I said it's a retaliation, I mean it. Time to time Israel expand their territory little by little, abandoning the agreement and what did the UN do? the UN ends up almost doing nothing. And Palestine didn't have a good army. Yes, I agree with you that they shouldn't attack civilian, but then the ones that the Israel army killed are mostly civilian, so both sides have their own sins.
Another reason of the heated up conflict later, is that some Israel Extrimists, I forgot what they're called, are trying to blow out Masjidil Aqsa, Islam's second holy place. The effort to destroy Masjidil Aqsa was not successful, but for heating up the war, it's a big success.
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John Layfield
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| Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 10:26 am Post subject: |
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Interesting, and in my opinion quite correct view of the matter I read somewhere once.
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Israel apologist "logic" goes like this:
1) "Some Palestinians are terrorists. That means it's OK to violate the Geneva Convention, shoot 10 year olds for throwing rocks, bulldoze homes, etc."
2) "The PLO/PA is a bad organization. This means it's OK to violate the Geneva Convention, shoot 10 year olds for throwing rocks, bulldoze homes, etc."
3) "Many neighbouring nations have said or done bad things. They're Arabs. Palestinians are also Arabs. This means it's OK to violate the Geneva Convention, shoot 10 year olds for throwing rocks, bulldoze homes, etc."
4) "Some guy in a neighbouring nation said something really bad about Israel. He was an Arab. Palestinians are Arabs. This means it's OK to violate the Geneva Convention, shoot 10 year olds for throwing rocks, bulldoze homes, etc."
5) "Holocaust. This means it's OK to violate the Geneva Convention, shoot 10 year olds for throwing rocks, bulldoze homes, etc."
6) "Israel has repeatedly offered a form of "peace" which looks suspiciously like perpetual occupation under Israeli overlordship. Palestinians have refused. Therefore, they must all be hatemongers. Therefore, it's OK to violate the Geneva Convention, shoot 10 year olds for throwing rocks, bulldoze homes, etc."
7) "You don't like Israel. Israel is full of Jews. Therefore, you're an anti-Semite. So start liking Israel, or I'll liken you to Hitler." |
A lot of people have been fooled by the media and maybe by religious upbringing to blindly accept that a Jewish race-state is a reasonable idea, but if you replaced the word 'Jewish' with, say, 'White' or 'Aryan' maybe you can see the problem. The whole concept of a race-state is racist! How can you have a "racial homeland" unless you use controls to keep a majority race, and how can you accomplish this unless you have and use racist policies?
My view is this. Palestine was foistered with the Israeli's after World War II. They demanded that particular land because of religious views. However, there was ALREADY a nation there at the time. This nation was uprooted and replaced with a 'race-state', a fascist state designed from conception to openly promote the needs of one majority race over the others.
In my opinion, the people of Israel have NO claim to the lands they currently occupy. And even IF, IF they did they, every single government should've been ousted. Israel's human rights record is, frankly, not good. Hell, in 2001, the UN's Durban Conference on international human rights and racism was effectively marginalized when Israel and the US stormed out because Israel was not being excluded from criticism! The United States was also the only nation out of more than 50 to vote against a resolution condemning the policies in the "occupied territories" (Jews there can vote but Arabs can't, among many other discriminatory rules) and in fact, the US has a history of repeatedly using its veto to quash any and all UN resolutions against Israel.
For their part, Israel and its so-called "amen chorus" in America point out that Israel is singled out for criticism even though there are other, much worse human-rights violators in the world. This IS a valid point. Many Arab and Islamic nations throw stones from a glass house when they condemn a Jewish nation for racial and religious discrimination. However, Israel still commits human rights violations regardless of whether others do.
Also, the western world, or specifically the Allied Powers of World War II, bear special responsibility for Israel. Simply put, Israel would not exist if Britain had not promised the land (liberated from the Turks with the help of the Palestinians in return for their independence) to the Jews (who contributed nothing to this liberation but stood ready to swoop in with a 3,000 old land claim based on religious dogma). Israel was eventually formed by the United Nations at the behest of the Allied Powers, and since they created and protected it, Israel should answer to their values, which it does not, in the least.
Of course, the UN point is pretty moot if refered to seeing as the United States has decided that what the UN has to say doesn't matter much depending on how it feels about going to war or war crime courts or anything else.
Anyway, my point is this. The nation of Israel has no moral superiority over either it's neighbours or the Palestinian people it currently subjugates and to whom it refuses to grant human rights. It also has a flimsy POLITICAL superiority with it's supporters calling upon a decree made over 50 years ago at the behest of Britain, America and the other Allied nations.
Basically, I find the idea that a race claiming it "needs" to found a state which is racist in design and nature for survival (which is a lie, it doesn't need to AT ALL) and backing that up mainly with religious texts, which should never be the basis for any political move, laughable.
That's my view regarding the political aspect. The warfare aspect is so screwed up, neither Palestine nor Israel could be considered morally superior at this time, nor have either side been for a long time.
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Tendou Souji
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| Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 10:26 am Post subject: |
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| Somehow all of this are related, and maybe... just maybe.... the real starter of this war is not from both sides... what if there's another opposition to the war? ..A conspiracy of some sort? |
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Vextor
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| Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 10:38 am Post subject: |
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| The badguy from Tron wrote: |
well, that's fine if you disagree with me. this is a forum, and forums are where people voice their opinions and views on topics.
but for the record, I'm going to be biased towards the Jews, since I am one. |
Wrong, this is a forum owned by me, and people are not allowed to voice opinions that are offensive to others. Don't get in the habit of thinking you can say whatever the hell you want. |
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Kohaku
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| Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 10:51 am Post subject: |
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John Layfield, I like your oppinion on this matter. It's speaking of the things that I wanted to say, but I couldn't since my english is limited.
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Filipe
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| Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2005 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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Then entire problem with this situation politically is that both sides have land claims that go back more than a thousand years. Not forgetting to mention that both sides lost the territory thanks to invading armies. Israel was taken over by Muslim armies before the crusades, and the same area was taken by the British during World War 2. Thus it was the British who had claim to the land to do with what they chose. The Jewish people needed a place to go, the Palestineans had an agreement for the land as well. So the only thing to do was to give it to both of them.
If you want to look at the land claims well, the Palestineans have been living there actively since the Crusades as their land. Yet before that everyone from the Egyptians, to the Romans recognized that land as the Jewish homeland. It was until the Muslim armies invaded and took over prior to the Crusades that it changed. They both have equal rights to the land so talking about land claims and religious states is besides the point. On top of that part of the Palestinean reason for wanting that land is because of their religious beliefs so i dont know what to say about that.
To comment on what Kohaku said, I am not saying that I agree with everything the Israeli's have done. However you have to look at it from their standpoint sometimes. You also have to look at it from the Palestineans standpoint sometimes as well. From the Israeli's standpoint, they demolish homes to eliminate areas for militants to attack them from. Homes that have been used as staging points for these attacks. You could say that ues the Israeli's destroyed the homes but if you want to place blame look at both sides for that. There would be no need to destroy the homes if the militants didnt use them. So blame the Israeli's and the militants but not one side or the other.
Then you have this whole killing of children who are throwing stones and such at the soldiers. Now answer me this? Have you ever had a stone thrown at your head? Do you know what kind of damage that could do if it didnt kill you outright? Do you also know that it is considered being attacked and thus they are making themselves into soldiers as well? If your being attacked regardless of the weapon they are using or their age wouldnt you fight back as well? If you really need to look at someone to blame have a look at the militants for getting these kids to throw stones at people, and frickin tanks.
I try to look at the Palestinean situation sometimes as well but others seem to do that for me and sum up my position as well. I tend to lose most of my sympathy for the militants cause, when I hear about them blowing up a supermarket with women and children in it. It's the innocent women and children on both sides that I feel sorry for.
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