A Question of chaos and order

[Marnix]

I was talking with my freinds and we came across a topic about how people affect the world. I argued that people would never leave anything the same. We are chaotic people who must change things, even if we are nat aware of it. My freind says that we might have been like that but now being a highly evolved race, we strive for stability.

I think its just natural for people to change things in accordance to their nature. Even if we tried, we couldnt stop changing things. We are constantly creating things, destrtoying things and re-building. But it is never the same.

If for example we tried to create a somthing again, we probably get it close, but never there, and I am aware that most nothing is the same as before, not even at a figuratie level. But I still hold strong to people and indeed anything living i.e biotic, being totally chaotic.

Could someone clear up this arguement? My freind is holding something of mine for ransom till I give him a good reason why I right, or in the unlikely event he is.

[Cedric]

I say you're both right. It's all a matter of perspective. At times, you're going to meet people who never want things to change. They want to live in their current utopia (in their eyes) forever. At the same time, some others prefer excitement and adventure to their lives. They always are looking for a new type of activity otherwise, they'd be eternally bored. I think you'll find that deep down, you're going to find more people in the latter example, but you can never count out the first option.

But change is inevitable, because life refuses to be stable. You either adapt to the change or fall victim to what life offers you. But the interesting part to all this is that change spurs the desires of humanity itself. Those with peaceful lives usually want something more exciting to happen on a daily basis. Others, such as worn-travellers, will likely want something more stable. We're just fickle, sometimes.
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[Schala-Kid]

well, nothing will ever be perfectly identical to whatever has been created. it's obvious in humans, but even in products, it all has slight variations, so slight it cannot be detected, and appears standard. the closer you look at it, the more unique anything becomes.

stability? this isn't true. we are in a constant state of change. preferences, technology, society, everything is changing. what we wear, how we communicate, what we believe. before we thought for domestic freedoms, now politicians are fighting for conformity and less freedoms over our own persons. in a way, isn't this destructive of the progress we've made, be it that you agree or not? it is a change, and we'll always be under some change. blackberries are replacing pdas, so on so forth, the impact of this further incorporates is to our employeer,, who wants on demand labour, this will detract from home life and society, probably putting stress due to an increase expected 'home work', without extra pay?

i'm a little unclear of if this is anything that helps you? your question was worded oddly.

[Baka]

There's no such things as stable... life goes up and down everyday. Even if it is said to be stable, the next moment you know/realized... it may have gone up or down.

[Deleted User 1]

I've always seen life as a bunch of risks and the it evolves according to the choices you make in life.....It's in human nature to destroy then to try to recreate and build...The world is full of chaos and it always will be it's not like enlightenment is going to happen to every person in the world and everything is going to be great....There will always be good people and always be bad people....But if you stop trying to recreate and rebuild then you'll end up with nothing

[Shrew]

This is one of those philosophical questions that doesn't really have a "right" answers. What matters is really the argument, so you won't be able to prove each other completely wrong.

But I'd say that humanity contains tendencies both toward order and chaos. There's always a struggle occurring between them. Evolution is a chaotic system that produces no set result. Whoever is best fitted for the situation wins. However the situation can change at any moment, which might very change who the winner is. Evolution does not neccesarily move toward better overall progress- say our own Human race, but it moves to what is best at the time. That result be very well be worse off in some ways then what preceded it. Mammals survived the dinosaurs, even though the dinos were so powerful.

But human society tends to try and keep order. It seeks to form communities it can rely on and can be hostile to change. Yet we always changing in some way, in our opinions, technologies, or biology. In our current time these changes are occurring even faster, even though we may still feel comfortable with reliable things.

Each individual also contains this struggle to an extent Freud presented the idea of an id, ego, and superego. The id is the more passionate and chaotic part of the mind which seeks pleasure and contains the yearning to survive. The superego craves order and morality and would likely do nothing except for sit rigid and still. The ego is the part that balances the two other parts, as humanity balances its own tendencies toward chaos and order.
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Fear our Vagueness.

[Solitude]

The Chaos Theory states that the smallest change in a system can forever alter that system for better or worse. It also states that nobody can acurately predict what will happen in the future more than a few seconds in.

Look at life as the system for a moment. If one day you come to an intersection and decide to turn left you may just go on your marry way and nothing out of the ordinary will happen. However if you decide to turn right you may run into someone who will alter your life for ever (wife/husband, friend, ect.)

Its all spontaneous and therefor there is no such thing as order. In my opinion all order is is trying to make sense out of chaos. Change is all around even in nature, you cannot stop change. Think about it, order is a man-made thing. Do you ever see order in nature? No, there is only chaos in nature. So therefor, seeming we are part of nature we are naturally chaotic.

[Marnix]

I suppose all the chaos we do is part of one set motive actually, in a constant trial and error value which is evolution. Basiclly we keep changing to get a better result to what we have for ourselves. I belive we are trying to achive perfection. We keep the things that work as they are and change anything that doesnt fit, sort of like a product being manufactured. Eventually we will get to a point where people will find perfection, even if its very far away (and it certinly looks that way) and then achive some kind of order. For now we will probly remain chaotic, but as we progress to the final stages of evolution as there must be an end to it somewhere, we wil have no need to change things. everything will be perfect. But that is purly speculation into a bilion million years ahead, perhaps we just change in a never ending circle from intellegent and weak back to stupid with brute strentgh and back to weak and intellegent.

[Vextor]

You do see order in nature, otherwise there would be no science. You can see this by looking at snowflakes, or the orderly placements of leaves on plants. The radial uniformity of jellyfish, and identical patterns seen in ripples also show that there is a system defined by natural law.

Look at the genetic level--the DNA is a very orderly structure that replicates titself nearly perfectly for billions of times to produce an entire multicellular liefeform, such as human beings. If nature was chaotic, there would be no mankind or no life whatsoever.

At the molecular level, you see order everywhere. You never see more than two electrons in the first "shell" of an atom, nor will you see an atom without any protons, or composed entirely of neutrons. There is always a certain degree of order in nature.

Where chaos gets involved is with it's application and its relationships with other "systems." We can detect the future up to a certain point with high probability. However, after a certain degree, the "unknowns" become too much that the system falls into total chaos. The chaos theory is more of a mathmatical theory, and has little philosophical application (or at least, I havn't seen it applied to philosophy).

[Solitude]

Yes yes I know there is order in nature, I just simply neglected it to argue one side of the coin.

On the flip side order is all around you as SARSadmin has said. Even at a subconcious level we apply order. Such things like your daily rutine of getting up showering going to work/school, coming home, relaxing, going to bed, then doing it all again tomorrow is an example of order on a subconcious level. How often do we break such routines? And when we do break them we go back to them the next day. Yes chaos is all around us but we also strive for order.

As you see both sides can be argued effectively and there really is no right answer. There is such thing as choas in the world and there is such thing as order. (Contrary to what I said in my last post but that was simply to argue the side of chaos.)

[Inko]

I think that the only thing that causes chaos is the existence of all living things.

[Starslasher]

i believve it when i see it...otherwise known as making generalizations. If you haven't seen rain in May, then you come to a generalization that it never rains in the month of May.

As for me, i left my friends for a year and returned to party with them. One of my friends changed to most. To a nearly 180, in fact. When i left, he was a good boy, does his religion well, becoming respectful to women, swearing not to drink, smoke, etc. When i returned, he became a pimp. He told me of his 15 girlfriends, we drank a bit of wine, and he smoked. i didn't like the change. i really liked things the way they were. So i know come to a generalization that i don't like change. I like things the way they were.

But who knows, i may have changed a lot as well. Chaos, or change, is something natural to us.

I would also like to refer to Valkyrie Profile. There was a conversation, about Odin rising to become the lord of the Gods. he in fact was a lowly god, half human as a matter of fact. But his human blood gave him a gift: change i.e. growth. Gods reamin static in their immortality. But Odin was able to grow in power and hence became their lord.

Such is the matter concerning chaos.
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Guardian of Greenhill & Devoted Protector of Oulan



Bork! Bork! Bork!

[Marnix]

I find order in nature to be more like orginizing differnt shaped rocks into a crude circle. you have your circle but in more closer detail, the circle itself is not really too circular, but resembles a circle. Even at a microscopic level, an atom wouldnt be completly circular, it would be slightly off from a complete 360 degrees.

What we have as "order" is simply a perception of stability. What we have is just a familar order that is assosiated in thought by most people, by commen values shared. If i put ten documents in alphabetical order, someone else might not understand it and put it into numerical order. Its simply assuming what we have as order is order, or even if chaos is really chaos to see the other side.

I think

[Sesshomaru69]

Humans are a very evil type of living thing. They want more and more. For some reason History proves our evil nature. For exmaple Once a person gets power, They will automactily try to increase said power. Usa, Russsai and germany. Everyone on earth has a bit of evil in them. ANd greed thats a very powerful addition to the power of people. Like endangerd animals. The more money they are they mroe they will die. So its kind;a like saying endangerd animals are already dead. I just wish people wouldn't go crazy with power. But soon it'll be all over..
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-To be a rock and not to roll- Led Zeppelin
-STYX

[Marnix]

I dont belive that humans are evil, but simply chaotic, just another part of life. If we didnt exist or any other biotic thing, existance would not change. it would be in a state of continutiy without purpose. And what would the point of simply existing if nothing happend? No change gives way to no growth. Kinda like the earth and biotic things. The earth doesnt nessarly change but it shifts its appearence, while people consume and grow to become better then before to change.