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John Layfield
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 Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Black Pesmerga wrote: |
| To be honest, if Yuber is really *that* dull, I have no idea how you can write 7 paragraphs for his bio in TheirStar while only managing to write 5 for the developed Flik. |
Honestly? I rushed Flik's out because the site needed more 'big player' bios (I don't really like many of the main characters so I mainly do the smaller bios) whereas I took my time with Yuber's.
| Black Pesmerga wrote: |
| So all I'm saying is that Yuber is developed, not by much, but mainly because that's what his role is so far. His role has never allowed him to take the center stage, and thus, no major development on him (yet?). So any reasonable person would understand why his development so far is still minimal. |
It's perfectly understandable, every character's development is tied into their role and screen time in the series. What I was pointing out is that, as you agree, his development IS still minimal. Even Chapman opened a theatre.
I guess the thread title is misleading (although if any decides to reply to a thread title and not read the posts contained therein, they need to be put down) but my issue was that people were treating Yuber as if his, as you admitted, minimal role in Suikoden III suddenly propelled him leagues ahead of Pesmerga and this brief appearance and the few lines of dialogue that came with it was eagerly latched onto by people who seems to be ill-content to like Yuber as a character on his own merits but rather want to pretend he's so much more while being able to enter the "cool crowd" who can bash Pesmerga for being empty and boring while being able to pretend the same criticisms are completely useless on Yuber based on around five lines of interesting dialogue from him in Suikoden III.
And damn that was a long sentence.
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Andarc
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| Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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....lol, this topic in a nutshell: "Yuber is just as developed as Pesmerga (random points blah blah)" "nuh uh" "uh huh!" "actually no because he only has a little role in S3" "NO, BIG ROLE!" "I DISAGREE BECAUSE (irrelevant argument) SEE?!"
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| Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Andarc wrote: |
| ....lol, this topic in a nutshell: "Yuber is just as developed as Pesmerga (random points blah blah)" "nuh uh" "uh huh!" "actually no because he only has a little role in S3" "NO, BIG ROLE!" "I DISAGREE BECAUSE (irrelevant argument) SEE?!" |
If you do not find this thread interesting, I heartily advice you to use the back button on your browser and go on to one you enjoy rather than complain about people discussing things.
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| But bubbles... children love bubbles! XD |
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Andarc
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| Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry, I meant no offense :/
But aside, I agree with the topic creator, Yuber is nothing special because he was featured a tad more prominently in S3. Pesmerga is only featured less in the suikoden as a whole, which means absolutely nothing in the field of developement if their screen time is nothing more than filler.
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Thor McOdin
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| Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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I admit that I was a Pesmerga fanboy during Suikoden II. However, after he failed to return my calls these last six years, I stopped caring. There are several other interesting characters out there, each with there own something special. However, if the series ends with an epic battle between Pesmerga and Yuber along the lines of ultimate control of the universe, I am going to be too upset for words.
Really, all Yuber and Pesmerga can amount to is filler. If either really thought so deeply about each other, one would think that they would have quotes between battles or King Lear type speeches on why they are intertwined in a cosmic sense (although I think Pesmerga says something during a battle in Suikoden 1). Still, maybe it is best to think about them in a movie; maybe Mortal Kombat. While Lui Kang is doing his thing...Pesmerga would probably be Johnny Kage and Yuber...Scorpion. Okay, that example really sucked. Let's try this one. Remember Billy Madison? Well, if Billy would be considered the Hero in the Suikoden Universe, Pesmerga would probably be Jack or Frank...and Yuber would be Roland the janitor. As the last two games have shown us (Suikoden V counts for two games because Suikoden IV doesn't count), we don't need to see either character to have an entertaining or thought-provoking experience.
As for Yuber and his Suikoden III shtick, Does it really matter? I mean Luc employed him for the sake of chaos. Oh, my! We knew he was an embodiment of chaos the first three games! Even though I was disappointed not to see Pesmerga in Suikoden III at first, I still found it to be enjoyable.
Wasn't one of the producers who pushed for Pesmerga and Yuber fired recently? Whatever. If both appear again, that's cool...just as long as it isn't something very cheesy. If not, that's fine, too.
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Aurelien
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| Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 10:09 pm Post subject: |
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| John wrote: |
| but my issue was that people were treating Yuber as if his, as you admitted, minimal role in Suikoden III suddenly propelled him leagues ahead of Pesmerga |
While I do think that his role in Suikoden III is minimal, I do agree that he's (far?) ahead of Pesmerga simply because Suikoden III showed many different things about Yuber that allowed us to learn more about him while we simply got nothing mentioned on Pesmerga. Nothing major like what his motive is, but we learn quite a lot about him when it comes to minor things. Maybe this is what those people thought too when they said that he's far ahead of Pesmerga.
I'll try my best to point out some of the significant bits on Suikoden III about him (a bit of a stretch too I might add). My memory is of course a bit blurry, so do correct me if I'm mistaken, or add things if you know what I don't remember.
1. Yuber can be summoned by anyone.
In Suikoden I, he worked for Windy but we never really got to know what the deal was between them. In Suikoden II, he was summoned by Leon Silverberg. We didn't know how other than it's using a "technique", but we knew that Leon was able to do so. By being hired by Albert Silverberg in Suikoden III, it confirmed that Yuber can be summoned by anyone and this so called "technique" is something that can be taught to others Therefore, he can be summoned by anyone as long as they know how. We don't even know how Pesmerga showed up to begin with.
2. The appearance change.
Sure changing clothes is not *that* big of a deal, but for Yuber's case, I personally think that it is. From the first two Suikoden games, Yuber and Pesmerga are both tied with the idea of "They're the Black Knights with big sword and badass dark heavy armor" (and subsequently, I think that's why most of their fans like them to begin with). But Suikoden III broke that idea by allowing Yuber to wear a different clothing and use a different weapon. It even fooled many veteran fans as none really noticed that it was a screenshot of Yuber when they first saw Michael Jackson-like character. He was branded "Man In Black" instead. When we learned that it was indeed Yuber, the whole concept of Yuber being badass with heavy armor is really shattered. People can no longer associate Yuber with only dark heavy armor (unlike Flik and his blue clothes which is a trademark). As for Pesmerga? We don't even know if he's still alive or not during Suikoden III timeline.
3. Yuber is able to fight with two-swords.
Weapon change is not *that* big of a deal once again, but it showed his mastery of combat skills. And if I'm not mistaken, only Luc, Lorelai, and Futch have changed weapons with Lorelai as the only one that did it before Yuber. By giving Yuber two-swords instead of one as he used before, this is another side of him that we were not aware of before, and it opens up the idea of Yuber might be able to fight with other weapons too just as well.
4. Yuber speaks (a lot).
I think this is what SirYuber meant before but didn't manage to get the point across. What he meant with "Yuber speaks" is not literally only stating that Yuber speaks (like gazillion town NPCs), but the fact that Yuber speaks allowed us to learn how he communicate (and to a certain extent, his characteristic) and other little information about him. Random people on the street might greet you and say "Good Day", but that doesn't mean that you know how they are. But if you hang out and communicate more often, then you can start to know what they are like by the way they speak.
This is what happened to Yuber, especially in Luc's POV. We got to learn the way he speaks and the way he reacts. Even little things like how he finds blood smell to be quite sweet, or how patience he is (when Luc said that he's not as patient as Yuber), or how Yuber is punctual (notice many times he said "You're late" to others), or how Yuber follows orders from others despite wanting to do the opposite, and other little things that develop his characteristic. We don't get any of those with Pesmerga because we barely ever communicate/interact with him.
5. Yuber will stay til the end if needed to.
The first two Suikoden games showed that Yuber ran away during the last major battles. This is taken by many players as "He's running away because he knew that they're (Scarlet Moon Empire and Highland) not going to win" and some labeled him as a coward for doing so, but Suikoden III showed that he stayed until the very end when he lost. This showed that the reason why Yuber ran away in Gate Rune War and Dunan Unification War is because order would be put once again as one nation is defeated. And as we know, he likes chaos. In Suikoden III, it's a different case, he fought until the end because he's fighting for his personal cause too (which is destroying True Rune) showing that he's not a coward, but simply picking his fight.
So in the end, if compared to well developed main characters like Luc, then yes Yuber falls behind and his development is minimal because they're on different level of exposure. But if compared to Pesmerga, who is pretty much not developed at all other than *very* minimal, then Yuber is clearly (far?) ahead. Whether it is far ahead or not, it's really up to the interpretation and expectation of the person.
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Yvl
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| Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 10:14 pm Post subject: |
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Wasn't one of the producers who pushed for Pesmerga and Yuber fired recently? Whatever. If both appear again, that's cool...just as long as it isn't something very cheesy. If not, that's fine, too.
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The head producer quit during S3, if that's what you're talking about. He said that the final battle was going to take place between Pez and Yuber. But again, he quit, so now we don't know. But they are FAR from filler, and no offense, but you're probably not thinking hard enough if you assume just because they haven't done anything major with each other so far that nothing major will ever happen.
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John Layfield
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| Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 10:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Black Pesmerga wrote: |
| 1. Yuber can be summoned by anyone. |
Well, as you say, some of it's a stretch. Yuber being able to be summoned by anyone who knows how isn't that big a deal. Two vastly different people had done so prior to Suikoden III (Windy and Leon). It would appear that this is just a Suikoden II tidbit repeated (and thus reinforced) in Suikoden III.
| Black Pesmerga wrote: |
| 2. The appearance change. |
His appearance change is minor. Yes, it marked a much larger change than, say, if Viktor got new pants or Luc's own costume change. This could mean one of two things. Either Yuber's costume is such a huge part of his identity that, yes, it's a big deal or Yuber is so baseless compared to others that we have to latch onto such things as getting a new suit in order to formulate some idea of change and progression in the character.
| Black Pesmerga wrote: |
| 3. Yuber is able to fight with two-swords. |
While the third point, regarding his dual swords is sort of weak, to me, I can accept it, simply because any returning character with a weapon change is usually mentioned. That said, to be honest, due to the lack of mention of his weapon before, for all I know it's a simple ret-con.
| Black Pesmerga wrote: |
| 4. Yuber speaks (a lot). |
The fourth point is entirely valid in offering minor contributions to shape the 'feel' of Yuber.
| Black Pesmerga wrote: |
| 5. Yuber will stay til the end if needed to. |
Fifth point is kinda meh. I mean, people theorise a lot of things. It's not as if we didn't really know this at the time of Suikoden II but with more people whining about how it made him a coward anyway. (My personal other example would be the "Agares Blight is a coward for fleeing to get help and not staying and watching what happened and/or attempting to stop it and getting a sword in the face for his troubles") Re-establishing something we could figure out before is nice but it's not really new.
The main thing, for me, that you missed is Yuber's mention that he's dealt with Zepon in the past. (Technically fourth point, I guess?)
But you're right on the last point, as well, it depends on the expectation of the person, and I suppose, of characterisation in general. Yuber's development, such as it is, in Suikoden III, strikes me as etheral, kind of floating, just out of reach to form something more substancial in some fashion.
But in my mind, I suppose 0.1 for Pesmerga and 0.4 for Yuber both round down to zero to me.
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Andarc
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| Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 11:09 pm Post subject: |
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both of them gain attention mostly because of their "cool" appearance, Black armor is a big deal.
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Aurelien
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| Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 12:08 am Post subject: |
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| John Layfield wrote: |
| Well, as you say, some of it's a stretch. Yuber being able to be summoned by anyone who knows how isn't that big a deal. |
It is a stretch indeed, but I do find the confirmation of Yuber being able to be summoned by anyone is a good information (it's not ground-breaking, that's for sure, but it's much more than knowing that Georg likes cheesecake).
Think about it this way. Suikoden I introduced us to Yuber. In Suikoden II, Leon Silverberg summoning Yuber answered the "How did Yuber appear? How did Yuber get involved in Dunan Unification War?" question. In Suikoden III, Albert summoning Yuber answered the "Who can make Yuber appear? Who can summon Yuber?". As a separate individual point, answering "Who" is not a big deal, but it helps to form the whole thing about Yuber by adding an extra piece that were missing before. I think people mainly overlook this because they're mostly fascinated by the "What is Yuber exactly?" or "Why is Yuber doing this and that?" rather than the two that had been answered before. And as mentioned, it's normal that people have different expectations.
| John Layfield wrote: |
| This could mean one of two things. Either Yuber's costume is such a huge part of his identity that, yes, it's a big deal or Yuber is so baseless compared to others that we have to latch onto such things as getting a new suit in order to formulate some idea of change and progression in the character. |
I personally don't think that it has to be one or the other. I think the change of his appearance offers something new to the fans, and it breaks the association between Yuber and "dark heavy armor". Prior to Suikoden III, when someone said Yuber, people would just automatically associate his name with "blonde dude, long hair, likes chaos, big sword, dark heavy armor" Two out of the five had been changed by Konami in Suikoden III. Appearance might not matter that much, but it certainly provides change. Even a simple haircut like Christian got in WWE back then changed the whole thing (I'm still upset that he was released after receiving big push, but hey I'm not WWE). To me personally, Murayama was up to something when he made those changes. But I'm afraid that we'd never find out what he intended to do.
| John Layfield wrote: |
| Re-establishing something we could figure out before is nice but it's not really new. |
Like you said yourself, people theorize a lot. But it takes a confirmation to make that theory true. Suikoden III, through Yuber's involvement until the very end, confirmed that Yuber is not a coward. So it is something new, it was something that we can only speculate before, but we can confirm it to be accurate now. You can't say it's nothing new just because we theorized about it before. I'm sure that people were theorizing about what it's like to be out of space in the past, and I'm sure that it got them excited when we first created a space shuttle. Confirming that we can indeed go out of space was new despite there had been ideas of being out of space before.
| John Layfield wrote: |
| The main thing, for me, that you missed is Yuber's mention that he's dealt with Zepon in the past. (Technically fourth point, I guess?) |
I actually purposely left that one out because it's what you considered as "new". To me, it's "too new" that it's a bit unrelated. Zepon is a no one in pre-Suikoden III, and while it gives new information about Yuber, it didn't excite me because it's a stand-alone information. I focused more on Yuber's changes that are related to what we already knew about him before in Suikoden I and II (that's why I made a lot of comparison with what Yuber was like in the previous two games in my 5 points).
I prefer to learn more about Yuber in relation to what we have known before because I like to make connections between the three games. Kind of like if I meet an old friend from elementary school. If I met him after 15 years or so of not meeting one another, I am more interested in learning things about him starting from when we parted ways, I'd be more interested to learn about his relationship now with our mutual friends back then (maybe they went to the same high school, or worked together, or something) rather than listening to his story about his new friends that I don't have a clue who they are because I definitely can relate better to the former while struggling to relate to the latter.
Having said all that, I do respect your opinion of giving 0.4 to Yuber. We do have different expectations indeed. ^^
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Agahnim
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| Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 3:30 pm Post subject: |
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When I first looked through this thread, I found myself agreeing with the conclusion of Deathmask (an obscure wrestling reference that entertains me; read as John Layfield), that people shouldn't refer to Yuber as a developed character, but I gave it some thought and came to a realisation.
Foremostly, one must consider what 'character' is; the qualities, traits, features and moral or ethical standards of an individual. It is this 'character' that we question the development of, in the case of Yuber. 'Character' does not necessarily refer to a knowledge of an individuals motives, origins or ideals. It is my opinion that as such, Yuber is considerably more developed than Pesmerga, by the time we reach Suikoden 3; based solely on information attainable within the games, and not any outside sources or speculation.
One of the main elements that initially drew me to this conclusion is that near enough every time someone speaks, and with every act they make (I would say that with every inaction as well, but in the case of Suikoden this doesn't really stand true, as for most of the game, many members of your army stand around doing nothing), they reveal some of their character; even if it is something as small as their opinion on a giving issue, or their reaction to a certain event or person.
I'll provide a basic outline, through some moments I can recall;
In the first Suikoden, we learn of the chaotic nature of Yuber; as apparently, since he was bored, he decided to set The Village of the Hidden Rune alight. Soon after this, we learn that he is not human, and his 'terrible power' can be sensed even from a distance. Later in the game, by meeting him in the present, we learn that he is either very old, or is another True Rune bearer. We also learn that he can be somewhat whimsical, through his reaction to the defeat at Gregminster.
In Suikoden II we meet Yuber again on the battlefield. When we meet him in Greenhill, we see that he seems to be able to teleport, and also has the power to summon a Bone Demon. Pesmerga also names Yuber as his arch-nemesis and a demon (?) in this game.
In Suikoden III, we learn that he has apparently dealt with Lizard Clan Cheif Zepon in the past, and that he can be summoned; which was apparently done by Leon in Suikoden II and now Albert in Suikoden III (I think we learn this in Suikoden III, but I can't remember when). We learn somewhat more of his personality here, through his reactions, statements and opinions throughout the game; such as "I simply desire a good fight with plenty of blood and the screams of the dying.", Chaos would suit me just fine.", and his statement to Luc near the end, where he resents being compared to humans.
In comparison, this is all we have really ever learned of Pesmerga, beyond that he is seeking Yuber;
* No one has seen him eat or sleep.
* He moves quietly in heavy armour.
* "Some people say he's just a shadow from another existence."
* He likes to say 'HMMM.'
There seems to me to be a significant difference in development there. In comparison to a number of characters, who aren't the main characters in a given Suikoden, I would suggest that Yuber is indeed 'developed' to some degree.
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sybillious
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| Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 1:46 am Post subject: |
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ok, this is just turning into a bash fest; we agree to disagree and let's leave it at that.
-closed-
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