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Ujitsuna
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 Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 2:28 pm Post subject: Speculation: Kreutz is actually Georg Prime! |
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I'm really only reposting this for reference, but I hope theres some new points or new faults we can find.
Kreutz is actually Georg Prime!
This speculation is to show how the mysterious Kreutz is actually the premier swordsman Georg Prime.
Richmond's description of Georg's history:
"He's got a hell of a history. In the Scarlet Moon Empire, he was 1 of the 6 Generals. In the Grasslands, he was an Ebony Moon Knight, and in Falena he was a Royal Knight. He just threw it all away."
1. He didn't throw it all away, he went back to Toran.
Georg originally serves as one of the Six Great Generals for Barbarossa Rugner's Succession War. After the war Georg supposedly dissapears and travels to the Grasslands and the Queendom of Falena leaving his infamous mark. However, in between the events of Suikoden I and II, there is a gap of inactivty from the famous general. Well, this believed inactivty is false, Georg actually fights in the Toran Liberation Army under the alias of Kreutz, one of Geil Rugner's (the previous emperor's) servants.
2. The known story is a lie.
It is believed by most that there were Six Great Generals that helped Barbarossa Rugner oust Geil Rugner and reclaim his right to the crown. By others, it is believed that there were only Five Great Generals at the start of the Gate Rune Wars:
#1 Teo Mcdohl
#2 Kwanda Rossman
#3 Kasim Hazil
#4 Kilawher Shulen
#5 Milich Oppenheimer
Why would Georg just be erased from history like that, or why would he just leave his position? Kreutz is supposedly a general for Geil Rugner who refused to work for Barbarossa Rugner following the Succession War, and then left the country (to the Grasslands where he attains the rank of 'Ebony Moon Knight' and to the Queendom of Falena where he becomes a Queen's Knight all under the name Georg Prime), only to return to Toran and find refuge in Goya. This evidence shows that these two characters could easily be the same person whos using two aliases so as not to arouse suspicion.
NOTE: An exact date or year when Georg/Kreutz leaves Toran is never given.
3. Corrupt Government.
Georg Prime always fights for what he believes is right, this is what causes him to go from land to land aiding heroes in their fights against evil governments and invaders. There are several examples that would cause Georg to join the Liberation Army in the Gate Rune Wars. As Georg left his position as a general in the Scarlet Moon Empire immediately after the Succession War claiming "I've fulfilled my promise." Here are the reasons Georg came back and fought against his ex-allies, and also sheds light on why he appears in other wars.
The "Kalekka Incident."
- Was a plan devised by Leon Silverberg to boost public morale in aid of pushing Jowston forces out of Toran completely, as they had invaded a year after the Succession War attempting to take advantage of the weakened nation. Leon Silverberg proposed that the citizens of Kalekka be massacred to get the rest of the public to support Barbarossa in his war against South Window and Tinto who represented the City-States of Jowston.
Corrupt Government Officials
- Government workers such as Kraze Miles and Kanaan, both never accomplished anything in their lifetime, and were only able to get their positions in the Scarlet Moon Empire by "brown nosing."
Court Magician's Abuse
- Probably the biggest point, Windy, the court magician was given freedom to do what she wanted in the country. This lead to Neclord being declared governer of Lorimar (and we all know that guy shouldn't be a governer) and Yuber eventually leading the Imperial Army (with Kanaan beneath him).
It's easy to see that Georg would find the Scarlet Moon Empire he once fought for now as an enemy, which is why he joined in the fight against the Emperor under the alias of Kreutz.
4. Connection to Humphery.
Humphery Mintz is a soldier from the battalion that was forced to strom Kalekka and leave no survivors, he expresses sadness and attonement for this act when he speaks with Kreutz in Goya who he seems to understand was equally as upset and angry at this act as he is. Humphrey also compliment's Kreutz's abilities as a general. It is famously known that Georg Prime is a skilled general worthy of compliment as well. This leads us to believe that both Kreutz and Georg have similar traits and could very well be the same person.
You could say that in Suikoden II there would be more dialogue or a relationship between Georg and Humphrey, this would in face be incorrect as Georg is posing as himself and not Kreutz!
5. Kreutz's expressed desire for his master (Geil Rugner) and participation in the Succession War.
Kreutz's mentioning of his only master being Geil Rugner is a cover that he uses so no one suspects that he is really one of the Six Great Generals: Georg Prime. Why he uses the alias Kreutz is unknown, but he must have his reasons, possibly due to the events of his departure/escape from Toran.
Kreutz is also confirmed to have fought with Barbarossa Rugner's army with Geil Rugner's generals: Schmidt and Bergen. Since theres no exact date that Georg Prime joins Barbarossa Rugner during the Succession War, it is entirely possible that Georg/Kreutz fought for both sides in that war, he may have changed his mind based on his morals and decency as to which side he should fight for.
7. The eyepatch.
As shown in the Queendom of Falena and the Dunan Unification War, there is no need to Georg to wear an eye patch, but he does wear one during the Succession War anyway. Georg removed his eyepatch after his trip to the Queendom of Falena to fool anyone in Toran who would usually recognise him. Under a different name and different face, Georg and Kreutz are hard to diffrentiate.
 to 
The resemblence is astounding! Look at that trademark determind expression they both have! I could stop right here and theres enough evidence to prove this.
As proven by other characters in Suikoden, hair dye is accessible, and it's entirely possible Georg used this to make himself look older to look like another man completely.
8. Georg Prime is confirmed to fight under aliases (Kreutz).
It is confirmed that Georg Prime fights in many wars under different names, this leads us to believe that he can indeed be Kreutz following the above information. It is also confirmed that Georg leaves specifically for the Northern Continent (where the Scarlet Moon Empire was located) from the Queendom of Falena.
9. The endings.
Georg Prime travels to Toran, when the Gate Rune Wars take place, Kreutz leaves the country after the Gate Rune Wars, having defeated his enemy, then Georg Prime appears later in the Tinto area to participate in the Dunan Unifcation War (without his eyepatch, and under the name Georg Prime).
10. Different star, different birth date and different sword.
There are some differences that make this theory hard to prove, such as Georg and Kreutz having a different star. I think that because Georg is imitating such a different person to himself, than why should he not have a different star? Theres technically no law against it and I see no reason why it can't buck the trend. Kreutz uses a different sword to Georg because he wants to keep his identity a secret in Toran. He is famously known as Deathblow Georg and he doesn't want anyone to recognise him, even his fighting technique. Remember that Georg also needlessly fights with an eyepatch sometimes, so using a different sword occasionally is not going to be insane to him. Kreutz's date of birth is IS 423, while Georg Prime's is IS 420, this makes Kreutz three years older than Georg, but there is hardly any age difference visually, Georg (as Kreutz, or perhaps as himself) may have lied about his age so as not to arouse any suspicion and aid his undercover activities.
Judging by this overwhelming evidence, it is easy for us to come to the conclusion that Kreutz is actually Georg Prime, and that Georg was indeed present in the first Suikoden!
This is the revised and improved version, which I hope is at least fairly believable. Bare in mind though this is only really a bit of fun. :) |
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Firefly
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| Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 4:33 pm Post subject: |
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I dunno, the different star, birth date and sword are more than enough to throw your theory in the trash. Besides, I don't see any good reason story-line wise that Georg would pretend to be Kreutz or vise versa. And I'm sorry but they don't look ANYTHING alike to me, besides the fact that they are both swordsmen.
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Ujitsuna
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| Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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| It wasn't enough to push the Mike/Zaj theory away, maybe the different star but there are examples that show how it can be possible. I put down them not looking THAT much like eachother down to the Suikoden I artwork, V's is much more refined. The fact they are both swordsmen has nothing to do with the theory to be honest. |
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Jhones
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| Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 10:29 pm Post subject: |
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You get points, but Gerog was working for Barbarossa during the Succesion war. How can be be a general for both sides? Aside from him an Krutz not looking at all alike, nor having the same weapons, And most importantly, Georg was in the Grasslands during this time.
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Ujitsuna
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| Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:08 am Post subject: |
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| Jhones wrote: |
| You get points, but Gerog was working for Barbarossa during the Succesion war. How can be be a general for both sides? Aside from him an Krutz not looking at all alike, nor having the same weapons, And most importantly, Georg was in the Grassland during this time. |
He wasn't in the Grassland during the time because you can't prove that. It never gives a date while hes in the Grassland. Fair enough, but keep in mind this speculation was only for fun and for reference. |
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Sophita
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| Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:20 am Post subject: |
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| Wes wrote: |
| I put down them not looking THAT much like eachother down to the Suikoden I artwork, V's is much more refined. |
Actually, Georg has Suikoden I artwork. Unfortunately, I don't have any scans available (anyone with that picture help an uqeen out?), but if you happen to have the US copy of Suikoden I just oh, laying around, open it up to the table of contents and Georg is in the bottom-left picture with the other 5 SME generals, to the above-right of Milich.
And they still don't look much alike even when drawn in the same art style.
It's an interesting theory, but I think the different star thing is enough to sink it. Considering Valeria or Kasumi take up their old star and Tomo takes whatever is left, I think that's proof that you don't change stars in your lifetime, even if the role you're serving is diffferent. Yeah, you can say Little Viki and Viki don't have the same star, but to be honest, we know so little about Viki - and what we do know is that she tends to have ...unique qualities ala teleporting and being seemingly ageless - that I'm a bit hesitant to use her as proof of anything.
(...Besides, we do even know Little Viki is the same person as Viki?)
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Aurelien
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| Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 9:27 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Well, this believed inactivty is false, Georg actually fights in the Toran Liberation Army under the alias of Kreutz, one of Geil Rugner's (the previous emperor's) servants. |
This is most likely incorrect because Kreutz served under Geil Rugner on Succession War while Georg was on Barbarossa's side. Therefore, it is impossible that one person served for both sides when it's quite clear that they are two different people.
| Quote: |
| It is believed by most that there were Six Great Generals that helped Barbarossa Rugner oust Geil Rugner and reclaim his right to the crown. By others, it is believed that there were only Five Great Generals at the start of the Gate Rune Wars |
There were Six Great Generals during the Succession War, while there were Five Great Generals during the Gate Rune War. The reason? Simply because Georg left the Great General position without having any replacement so the six became five.
| Quote: |
| Why would Georg just be erased from history like that, or why would he just leave his position? |
He was not erased from history. That's why everyone knew that there were Six Great Generals during Succession War. As for why he just left his position, it's simply because Georg is that kind of person (as shown by what he did later on for the Ebony Knight and Queen's Knight).
| Quote: |
| This evidence shows that these two characters could easily be the same person whos using two aliases so as not to arouse suspicion. |
No, it doesn't show that they could easily be the same at all. You didn't even give any evidence at all on your point #2. What you did was simply speculating that Georg went back to Scarlet Moon Empire and worked against Barbarossa during the Gate Rune War. Where was exactly the evidence?
| Quote: |
| It's easy to see that Georg would find the Scarlet Moon Empire he once fought for now as an enemy, which is why he joined in the fight against the Emperor under the alias of Kreutz. |
However, the same applied to every other good person, and not just Georg. Every one that would fight for what they think is right can do this. And you're forgetting that the name "Kreutz" was already well known during the Succession War.
| Quote: |
| Connection to Humphery. |
This is another big flaw in the speculation. The connection to Humphrey showed that "Kreutz" really existed and not the same person as Georg Prime. This is especially further on shown by Joshua being the Dragon Knight's leader at Goya. To be able to seek refuge there, you can't just come and stay. You've got to have sort of permission from the leader. Joshua would definitely knew if it was Georg or Kreutz due to Dragon Knight's familiarity with Scarlet Moon Empire.
| Quote: |
| You could say that in Suikoden II there would be more dialogue or a relationship between Georg and Humphrey, this would in face be incorrect as Georg is posing as himself and not Kreutz! |
I'm sorry but this doesn't make much sense at all. If Humphrey could not recognize Georg as Georg but could recognize Kreutz, it's either Georg is REALLY THAT GOOD in disguising himself, or Humphrey is really poor judge of character.
| Quote: |
| Since theres no exact date that Georg Prime joins Barbarossa Rugner during the Succession War, it is entirely possible that Georg/Kreutz fought for both sides in that war, he may have changed his mind based on his morals and decency as to which side he should fight for. |
This is another weak point to the speculation. Kreutz served Geil Rugner until the end of Succession War. Regardless of when Georg joined Barbarossa Rugner's side for the Succession War, there would be a period where Georg cannot be Kreutz due to the simple fact that one person can't be at 2 different places at one time. And you missed point #6 by the way, you jumped from #5 to #7.
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The resemblence is astounding! Look at that trademark determind expression they both have! I could stop right here and theres enough evidence to prove this.
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So if someone takes a picture by having determined expression, then that someone is definitely Georg/Kreutz? I could also stop right here and just consider this speculation to be really really really really awful too. Just kidding ^^ but you get the point.
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| then Georg Prime appears later in the Tinto area to participate in the Dunan Unifcation War (without his eyepatch, and under the name Georg Prime) |
This contradicted your previous point in which you said that Georg removed his eyepatch so that people in Toran cannot recognize him. If the eyepatch removal was so that others wouldn't recognize him, it wouldn't make sense for him to introduce himself as Georg Prime during the Dunan Unification War, especially seeing that there were people from Toran Republic fighting to aid the City-States of Jowston.
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| I think that because Georg is imitating such a different person to himself, than why should he not have a different star? Theres technically no law against it and I see no reason why it can't buck the trend. |
Yes there is a "law" about stars. People got stars when they were born, not them just picking which stars they wanted to be. Therefore, if Georg and Kreutz were to be the same person, they had to share the same star. In this case, clearly they have different stars.
| Quote: |
| Kreutz's date of birth is IS 423, while Georg Prime's is IS 420, this makes Kreutz three years older than Georg, but there is hardly any age difference visually, Georg (as Kreutz, or perhaps as himself) may have lied about his age so as not to arouse any suspicion and aid his undercover activities. |
One small thing, Kreutz is 3 years younger than Georg. While he might have lied, can you prove it that he did?
| Quote: |
| Judging by this overwhelming evidence, it is easy for us to come to the conclusion that Kreutz is actually Georg Prime, and that Georg was indeed present in the first Suikoden! |
Unfortunately, there is no overwhelming evidence at all. While I realized that this is mainly for fun, a speculation has to be firm for it to be considered as a good speculation. To me personally, this speculation only shows that Kreutz and Georg might be the same. It doesn't show that they are the same at all. There is no single evidence that said that they are the same person at all because you relied on "it's possible that so and so happened because there's nothing said against it" rather than focusing on what actually did happen. Therefore, the evidence that you showed are fairly the weak ones and you failed to tackle the harder and more important issues such as the different stars.
Or in other words, if they are using different names, they are using different swords, they have different stars, they were born in different years, and they look different, wouldn't it be easier to say that hey, they are indeed two different people?
| Quote: |
| Actually, Georg has Suikoden I artwork. Unfortunately, I don't have any scans available (anyone with that picture help an uqeen out?), but if you happen to have the US copy of Suikoden I just oh, laying around, open it up to the table of contents and Georg is in the bottom-left picture with the other 5 Scarlet Moon Empire generals, to the above-right of Milich. |
Not sure if this is what you meant or not, Sophita, but this is the only one I have from a friend. Sorry if it's a bit big.
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Sophita
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| Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 9:28 am Post subject: |
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Yep, that's it! And in full color, too. Thanks BP.
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Ujitsuna
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| Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 1:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Sophita wrote: |
| Wes wrote: |
| I put down them not looking THAT much like eachother down to the Suikoden I artwork, V's is much more refined. |
Actually, Georg has Suikoden I artwork. Unfortunately, I don't have any scans available (anyone with that picture help an uqeen out?), but if you happen to have the US copy of Suikoden I just oh, laying around, open it up to the table of contents and Georg is in the bottom-left picture with the other 5 Scarlet Moon Empire generals, to the above-right of Milich.
And they still don't look much alike even when drawn in the same art style.
It's an interesting theory, but I think the different star thing is enough to sink it. Considering Valeria or Kasumi take up their old star and Tomo takes whatever is left, I think that's proof that you don't change stars in your lifetime, even if the role you're serving is diffferent. Yeah, you can say Little Viki and Viki don't have the same star, but to be honest, we know so little about Viki - and what we do know is that she tends to have ...unique qualities ala teleporting and being seemingly ageless - that I'm a bit hesitant to use her as proof of anything.
(...Besides, we do even know Little Viki is the same person as Viki?) |
I know he has Suikoden I artwork, hes 27 in it, but technically it's still not a portrait, just instruction book art. The fact that Tomo takes whatevers left makes you think that perhaps the star system is more flexible than you think? |
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Lonelion
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| Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Wasn't the Tomo thing just a little gameplay aspect that gave the player a reason to replay Suiko2; and to let the player choose the character, he/she prefered from either Valeria or Kasumi without getting penalized? |
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Ujitsuna
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| Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Cupil wrote: |
| Wasn't the Tomo thing just a little gameplay aspect that gave the player a reason to replay Suiko2; and to let the player choose the character, he/she prefered from either Valeria or Kasumi without getting penalized? |
Yeah, thats fine, but what I'm saying is that Tomo can take a different star. Shes not assigned one star in particular officially. Her star changes.
| Lonelion wrote: |
| Kreutz is not Georg Prime,they are 2 different people nice try Wes. |
:evil:
Black Pesmerga I don't have it in me at the moment to answer your post, your time will come. :D Also people, just because I made this speculation doesn't mean I believe it, it was just an idea I had at the time and I tried to prove it to myself, this is the result. |
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Aurelien
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| Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 8:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Wes wrote: |
| Yeah, thats fine, but what I'm saying is that Tomo can take a different star. Shes not assigned one star in particular officially. Her star changes. |
This is incorrect because her star never changed whatsoever. She could have 2 different stars, but not at the same event/timeline. Therefore, she had the same star no matter what.
Think of it this way. If you choose Valeria, then Tomo got Kasumi's star. If you choose Kasumi, then Tomo got Valeria's star. Regardless of who you choose, Tomo still only had 1 same star (which was assigned to her when she was born). It's just a matter of who Riou picked from Toran Republic to determine what star she was born under.
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Ujitsuna
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| Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 4:40 am Post subject: |
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| Yeah, but she can have a different star, it doesn't have to be one in particular. I'm saying that perhaps the stars are a biut more flexible. |
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