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Vextor
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 Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 12:48 am Post subject: |
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Nah, "Romance of the Three Kingdoms" was compiled by Luo Guanzhong during the Ming Dynasty some time around the 1600s. He also compiled Shui Hu Zhuan. I say "compiled" because he collected a bunch of folklores about these characters and put them together into one coherent story--which then became widely popular.
The guy you're talking about is Chen Shou, who wrote "histories" and was the grandson of Chen Shi, who served under Liu Bei. Chen Shou served in the Jin Dynasty and wrote "Records of the Three Kingdoms," which is separate from "Romance of the Three Kingdoms" and isn't really a literary work--it's more of a collection of historical records and profiles of various people from that era. There's even a mention of Japan (the first written account of Japan's existence... I think... well, there may have been one more before that). |
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jjrrs
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| Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 3:12 am Post subject: |
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Yeah, the same guy wrote both book in the 1500s I think, on wikipedia they have pretty good facts and information about all of that, and I didn't know this until I looked on there, but despite the fact the first 70 of the 100 chapters in the Water Margin was suppose to be written by a different author, it's all but confirmed that the person who finished the novel (the same person who wrote ROTK) was actually the same guy.
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I've read outlaws of the marsh.. It's a good read, but it's amazingly HARD to keep track of everything. So many characters, and so many minor characters that it can get VERY confusing.
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I kind of agree with that, up until the book started to completely focus on the Tenkai Chief Star of Heaven Song Jiang around the time he officially joins the group, the story really bounced around a lot.
I remember getting pretty pissed after finally getting attached to reading about a character I liked, then all of a sudden I had no choice but to read about a completely new person whom the previous character just happened to bump into. But once the entire group of outlaws became basically the army lead by Song Jiang, the story feels a lot more suikoden(the games) like and it's all about the battles, strategies, and recruiting new allies.
I also remember completely hating the Tenkai Star Song Jiang because he really isn't good at anything. He can't fight worth a crap, he's not all that smart and there seems to be no reason why all the others respect him so much. But I guess just like Liu Bei in ROTK, the readers just have to accept the fact the character's role is the well-respected born leader.
Another thing about the novel that feels just like the suikoden games is that with all 108 characters, there are always ones you'd like and ones you don't. The ones I really like or think are underrated are:
Tenei Heroic Star Hua Rong- super awesome guy, in my head he's very Zhao Yun like, honorable, respected, fearless, well dressed, sharp looking guy... except he's way better with the bow which is always just cool for any character (though many times Zhao Yun had also shown amazing bow skills in ROTK, and I'm sure he's not nearly as good with a spear as Zhao Yun but it's never mentioned that his spear skills are any less than great) It's a shame he had to go out the way he did, which was the only thing that was kind of lame about him.
Tenritsu Star of the Standing Spear Dong Ping- a badass fighter wielding twin spears which was a skill I really loved in warriors of those days, just the fact someone could have the coordination to do that alone is amazing, not to mention be good enough to kick everyone else's ass. This guy's a bit of a hot head which lead to his death, and the reason why he joined the group suggests he may not have the greatest personal character, but he was just a pure fighter with no other purpose and he did a damn good job at that. Dong Ping's bloodline lived on through his son with the same twin spears skills in a different war novel of a different author, but he was a character who only made a very brief appearance and I have no idea what happened to him. (Guan Sheng The Great Sword's son and another descendent of Guan Yu was also in that novel, his name was Guan Lin I think)
Tensyo The Swift Star Zhang Qing- I loved the Clive gunner reference in the games here, this guy had the next best thing with his deadly accurate rock flicking during fights which was even cooler than most guys with good bow skills. (Of course seeing how hard it is to be a baseball pitcher, it's obvious that this character was pure fiction) He single handedly dominated many battles with his unique skill that no one had an answer for, he's also always paired up with Dong Ping in battle but seems to show more honor than him, they both died together in a very disappointing way which was just painful for me to read as I really liked both of them.
Tensui Star of Intelligence Shi Xiu- another fearless badass who killed everyone he needed to kill and put his own life on the line many times without blinking an eye. He was very loyal to all of his sworn brothers and did whatever it took to get a job done, but wasn't nearly as thoughtless as Li Kui The Black Whirlwind. His role got greatly reduced as the story went on, and his died in a really piss ant way as if he was a skill less foot soldier, but I liked the guy plus I share his last name.
Tenkou Clever Star Yan Qing- skilled in everyway, he's so witty that he was the only main character who never got into a shameful situation and was the perfect spy. (I wish Nash had taken his star in III, they really remind me of each other) Young, well dressed, handsome looking, beautifully tattooed, physically skilled, artistically gifted, loved by women, tremendously loyal... he may have just been the most perfect character I have ever read about, I thought this guy was a borderline super hero. He had so much foresight that he was on to the extensive ploy of Wu Yung The Great Intelligence, who was by far the smartest character in the entire story, and couldn't have done a better job advising and honoring his benefactor Lu Jun-yi, it was totally deserving that Yan Qing survived the final campaign to live on a good life.
Chisa The Aiding Star Lu Fang & Chiyu The Helpful Star Guo Sheng- these two guys are like a twofer, they dressed the same except in color, used the same weapons, shared the same skills, stood next to each other protecting the Tenkai Star at all times and always rode out to battle together. Lu Fang modeled himself after Lu Bu of ROTK because he admired him (they are not related) which scores major points with me even though I think Lu Bu is a low life, if I recall correctly both of them never said much but were always around. Their death wasn't pleasant but was way cooler than most: rushing up to attack a hill, Guo Sheng and his ride took a huge boulder head on, while Lu Fang fought a guy with pure strength on the steep sloops only to have both guys and their rides crashing down the hill due to too much force being applied by both fighters.
Chikyu The Intelligent Star Hu-la Niang- said to be a really hot girl with major fighting skills, used a pair of single edge swords and a lasso. She matched up well with the men she fought and captured quite a few that didn't show her the respect they should have, unfortunately she was paired up and married to Wang Ying The Dwarf Tiger who was somewhat of a horny midget while she's tall and elegant. They did care for each other as she died very tragically trying to revenge his death, but was taken by surprise and struck in the face with a flying brick. (That’s just wrong killing a pretty lady by breaking her face, plus who throws a brick in battle? honestly...)
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Starslasher
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| Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 4:51 am Post subject: |
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| jjrrs wrote: |
| Yeah, the same guy wrote both book in the 1500s I think, on wikipedia they have pretty good facts and information about all of that, and I didn't know this until I looked on there, but despite the fact the first 70 of the 100 chapters in the Water Margin was suppose to be written by a different author, it's all but confirmed that the person who finished the novel (the same person who wrote ROTK) was actually the same guy. |
Well, the translation i read had about 72 chapters, not 100 (and about 1200+ pages). I read the one from Pearl S. Buck. Whose did you read from?
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| I also remember completely hating the Tenkai Star Song Jiang because he really isn't good at anything. He can't fight worth a crap, he's not all that smart and there seems to be no reason why all the others respect him so much. But I guess just like Liu Bei in ROTK, the readers just have to accept the fact the character's role is the well-respected born leader. |
I actually liked that Sung Chiang (spelling from the book i read) wasn't a great fighter. It shows that a character cannot be measured merely by strength or power, since it's not the same as piety. Sung Chiang was the most virtuous of them all, probably, despite not being strong, and that was why he was made the leader.
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| Tenei Heroic Star Hua Rong- super awesome guy, in my head he's very Zhao Yun like, honorable, respected, fearless, well dressed, sharp looking guy... except he's way better with the bow which is always just cool for any character (though many times Zhao Yun had also shown amazing bow skills in ROTK, and I'm sure he's not nearly as good with a spear as Zhao Yun but it's never mentioned that his spear skills are any less than great) It's a shame he had to go out the way he did, which was the only thing that was kind of lame about him. |
Yeah, Hua Rong was pretty cool. I don't think too much on comparing characters from Shui Hu Zhuan to San Kuo (Three Kingdoms), but he does fit Zhao Yun, who was my favorite in Dynasty Warriors.
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| Tenritsu Star of the Standing Spear Dong Ping- a badass fighter wielding twin spears which was a skill I really loved in warriors of those days, just the fact someone could have the coordination to do that alone is amazing, not to mention be good enough to kick everyone else's ass. This guy's a bit of a hot head which lead to his death, and the reason why he joined the group suggests he may not have the greatest personal character, but he was just a pure fighter with no other purpose and he did a damn good job at that. Dong Ping's bloodline lived on through his son with the same twin spears skills in a different war novel of a different author, but he was a character who only made a very brief appearance and I have no idea what happened to him. (Guan Sheng The Great Sword's son and another descendent of Guan Yu was also in that novel, his name was Guan Lin I think) |
Wasn't Guan Sheng the descendant of Guan Yu hismelf? Anyways, You do have to respect that awesome power Dong Ping (Tung Ping) had. Not one of my favorites, but defintiely not one of my least favorites.
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| Tensyo The Swift Star Zhang Qing- I loved the Clive gunner reference in the games here, this guy had the next best thing with his deadly accurate rock flicking during fights which was even cooler than most guys with good bow skills. (Of course seeing how hard it is to be a baseball pitcher, it's obvious that this character was pure fiction) He single handedly dominated many battles with his unique skill that no one had an answer for, he's also always paired up with Dong Ping in battle but seems to show more honor than him, they both died together in a very disappointing way which was just painful for me to read as I really liked both of them. |
He's about the same as Dong Ping for me. I didn't read about them dying, just that they were one of the very last ones to join, and that everyone lived (Except for Chiang Kai Shek, who i think was supposed to resemble the sacrifice like Odessa and Annabelle).
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| Tensui Star of Intelligence Shi Xiu- another fearless badass who killed everyone he needed to kill and put his own life on the line many times without blinking an eye. He was very loyal to all of his sworn brothers and did whatever it took to get a job done, but wasn't nearly as thoughtless as Li Kui The Black Whirlwind. His role got greatly reduced as the story went on, and his died in a really piss ant way as if he was a skill less foot soldier, but I liked the guy plus I share his last name. |
That was true, his role did get downsized dramatically, but i suppose it's understandable since there was 108 characters mentioned. I think that he's one of my favorite characters too. he was very brave, and didn't hold grudges, except for his friends.
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| Tenkou Clever Star Yan Qing- skilled in everyway, he's so witty that he was the only main character who never got into a shameful situation and was the perfect spy. (I wish Nash had taken his star in III, they really remind me of each other) Young, well dressed, handsome looking, beautifully tattooed, physically skilled, artistically gifted, loved by women, tremendously loyal... he may have just been the most perfect character I have ever read about, I thought this guy was a borderline super hero. He had so much foresight that he was on to the extensive ploy of Wu Yung The Great Intelligence, who was by far the smartest character in the entire story, and couldn't have done a better job advising and honoring his benefactor Lu Jun-yi, it was totally deserving that Yan Qing survived the final campaign to live on a good life. |
I did find this character fitting as a subordinate. I liked how he did help his master out through and through, instead of betraying him, as most people within Lu Chun I's circle did.
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| Chisa The Aiding Star Lu Fang & Chiyu The Helpful Star Guo Sheng- these two guys are like a twofer, they dressed the same except in color, used the same weapons, shared the same skills, stood next to each other protecting the Tenkai Star at all times and always rode out to battle together. Lu Fang modeled himself after Lu Bu of ROTK because he admired him (they are not related) which scores major points with me even though I think Lu Bu is a low life, if I recall correctly both of them never said much but were always around. Their death wasn't pleasant but was way cooler than most: rushing up to attack a hill, Guo Sheng and his ride took a huge boulder head on, while Lu Fang fought a guy with pure strength on the steep sloops only to have both guys and their rides crashing down the hill due to too much force being applied by both fighters. |
Can anyone give info about the legend that Guo Sheng was supposed to be based of from? I forget the name.
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| Chikyu The Intelligent Star Hu-la Niang- said to be a really hot girl with major fighting skills, used a pair of single edge swords and a lasso. She matched up well with the men she fought and captured quite a few that didn't show her the respect they should have, unfortunately she was paired up and married to Wang Ying The Dwarf Tiger who was somewhat of a horny midget while she's tall and elegant. They did care for each other as she died very tragically trying to revenge his death, but was taken by surprise and struck in the face with a flying brick. (That’s just wrong killing a pretty lady by breaking her face, plus who throws a brick in battle? honestly...) |
One of my favorite. She may not be an ideal model for today's woman, but i liked that she was strong, and very dutiful. And yeah, it was too bad that she had to marry Wang Ying.
Here are some of my favorites:
Wounded Star - Wu Sung - One of the starting characters, and main characters. The Tiger Slayer himself was a great cahracter for me, he even voluntarily went to jail for the murders he committed. It was a shame that he didn't help out that much later on.
Star of Heroic Ferocity - Ling Chung - The Leopard Headed. Definitely one of the strongest characters, not only in prowess but also in integrity. Sure, he might have a short temper, but at least he wasn't like Li Kuei or Lu Ta.
Star of Abundance - Chu Tung - The Beautiful Bearded. He has a great sense of duty, and kindness, not only for Sung Chiang himself, but also for that magistrate's son. Chu Tung, to me, was one of the strong but kind characters that i am fond of.
The Lesser Star- Shih Chin - I like seeing an arrogant man humbled. I can't help but think that he looks like Gan Ning, because of the tattoos, hehe.
Star of Noble Wisdom - Hsuan Tsan - This guy gets crap treatment, but still walks out with his head high. Now that's very noble.
Honorable mention goes to Lu Chi Shien, formerly Lu Ta. I just could help but laugh out loud at the trouble he caused at the monastery. But i defintiely wouldn't want to be around him for long.
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Vextor
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| Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 2:11 pm Post subject: |
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Li Kui is my favorite. The guy isn't some kick-ass warrior, but he's pretty useful. He's saved Song Jiang from certain death a number of times through cunning and his wide range of contacts... and in the end he survives and even becomes the King of Siam.
What's also great is that he dislikes Song Jiang's approach of wanting to gain amnesty from the emperor. Li Kui instead wished to continue living a bandit lifestyle, and didn't care for being "forgiven" by the empire. That's pretty much why he ends up leaving with his buddies to build a massive ship and head to Siam for new fortune. |
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Milan Fiori
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| Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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Wasn't Li Kui also the reason for Song Jiang being in half of those certain death situations? It's been awhile since I've read it, but wasn't Wu Yong always hesitant to send Li Kui anywheres, because he always let his temper get the best of him, and it always ended up with whoever he was with, getting caught by the government?
Though I do remember, because if all his problems he and Song Jiang became the closest of of all the outlaw kings.
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Vextor
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| Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Oh sorry, I confused Li Kui with Li Jun. I always read these names in Japanese, so I get confused when I have to write them out in roman letters. |
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Milan Fiori
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| Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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Ahah! That makes much more sense! He was the one who came up with the plan of diving into the water of the Marsh to over take the navy that was attacking the Bandit Stronghold? There's just so many characters in the books, that it's very difficult to remember who's who.
My top favorite would have to be Hua Rong. Not for all the things he did in battle, or his archery skill, but because he was the main reason a lot of the other members joined with Song Jiang. And for his final act, when after he learned of Song Jiang's suicide, he and Wu Song both went to his grave and hung themselves.
Suo Chao was also a favorite of mine, mostly due to his description. 8 feet tall, the embodiment of a Hero. Always first to ride into battle, wielding a giant golden axe. My Suikox description of Milan is based off him, right up to my regiment name.
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jjrrs
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| Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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Well, the translation i read had about 72 chapters, not 100 (and about 1200+ pages). I read the one from Pearl S. Buck. Whose did you read from?
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and that everyone lived
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I read the original text, which was exactly 100 chapters, are you saying in the version you read they never joined the government and granted amnesty? if that's the case, it may also be why you don't hate Song Jiang as much as I do because even though he did it for an honorable cause, I see that as the cause for getting all those stars of destiny killed.
Here's a really cool page that had info of the 108 characters listed like a suikoden game, by the order they first appeared in the book, I think it follows the original text's format so the chapter numbers may not be exactly helpful
http://www.poisonpie.com/words/others/somewhat/outlaws/text/outlaws.htm l#heroes
Wikipedia have a pretty good character bio on all 108 stars, but I must warn you that it may get pretty depressing reading about how 81 of them died in the last campaign against Fang La.
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Oh sorry, I confused Li Kui with Li Jun. I always read these names in Japanese, so I get confused when I have to write them out in roman letters.
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Wow, it's cool that you like him, I found him to be kind of an insignificant character for the most part, but I do love that fact he survived and went on to have a very successful life. Though I don't think he was that big of an opponent against amnesty because he wasn't in major trouble with the government to begin with, unlike many others that was totally wronged by corrupted officials. Also I don't know if it was just me but I almost found how he became sworn brothers to a few people who saved his life during the campaign against Fang La to be disrespectful to the 108 stars, (I think those are the same people he later went into the shipping business with) since the group was already set for a while and at the same time many of them were dying in battle, yet there he was doing his own thing and having a good time.
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Suo Chao was also a favorite of mine, mostly due to his description. 8 feet tall, the embodiment of a Hero. Always first to ride into battle, wielding a giant golden axe.
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I'm not a big fan of his because he's like the #1 hot head, Li Kui was way more unreasonable in battle as he just kills everyone without question but Suo Chao is just careless and has too much pride. He could have gotten killed against Yáng Zhì early on only because he was mad his student died, then he was captured by the outlaws because he thought he could capture Song Jiang and fell into a trap, finally when Guan Sheng knows his opponent was tricking him by falling back and told Suo Chao to stop chasing, he wouldn't and then took a morning star to the face and died.
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Wasn't Guan Sheng the descendant of Guan Yu hismelf?
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Yes he was
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Star of Abundance - Chu Tung - The Beautiful Bearded.
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In fact why Chu Tung was called The Beautiful Bearded because he looked exactly like Guan Yu, so in my mind he may actually resemble Guan Yu facially more than Guan Sheng.
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Can anyone give info about the legend that Guo Sheng was supposed to be based of from? I forget the name.
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His wikipedia page has info about that but I have no idea who that general was because I never read that book, it also says that Guo Sheng was mentioned as the son of a character in a different book, which I also never heard of. I love how in Chinese books different authors will just create blood relationships with characters in another book by a completely different author, like I said it was really cool seeing the sons of Ruan the 2nd, Dong Ping, Zhang Qing(not the featherless arrow), Guan Sheng, and the Yang family(same as Yáng Zhì) in this other war novel about resistance against the Jing Empire to the north about 20 years after the Water Margin. (Anyone read that? it's also a very good story)
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The Lesser Star- Shih Chin - I like seeing an arrogant man humbled. I can't help but think that he looks like Gan Ning, because of the tattoos
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I think he's really overrated, he got himself into trouble many times because he's careless and not that smart, and for some reason I never remember seeing him do anything cool like dominate a fight (after the first few chapters) or get major battle honors. Plus, his death along with Shi Xiu Daredevil Third Brother was one of the worst moments of the book for me, even though they kind of got into a trap, it was written as if they couldn't do anything to resist and they died without honor.
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