Shui Hu Zhuan novel...

Starslasher · Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 3:01 am Post subject: Shui Hu Zhuan novel...

Hello. I am under the assumption that everyone in this forum has played at least one Suikoden game and is into the series. So I was wondering how far some of you went.

In other words, has anyone read enitrely through the original novel "Shui Hu Zhuan"?

Well, i have read it, translated by Pearl S. Buck. It's a pretty good story. 1200 pages long, with 70 chapters and all the 108 characters plus a truckload of villains.

But apparently it comes under different translated titles. The first we know is "The Water Margin". But the title of Buck's translated novel is "All Men are Brothers". And it is also known as "Outlaws of the Marsh". Any thoughts on this?

I came upon another book on "The Water Margin", from David Wier. It was actually based/related to a BBC show thingy with japanese people doing the show. It was too short and did not have all the characters. It was ok, but the book translated by Buck was much, much better.

Also, for a little footnote, I read through the list of the Stars of Destiny there. I was looking at Mu Hung's star (Tenkyu....Of course, it does not say Tenkyu there. Must be the Japanese word for it). While here at good ol' Suikox.com, the Tenkyu star has been translated as the Lewd (meaning Rude) Star. But in the novel, it was trnaslated as the Penetrable Star. These two words "Lewd" and "Penetrable" are two different words. It's not important at all, i know, but i'd like to hear comments on it.

Stormbringer · Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2004 7:00 pm Post subject:

Well, if you think about it, lewd and penetrable do kind of match....if you really think about it.
Of course I have a very dirty mind :twisted:

Yeah so, is the novel interesting? Would you say it's more like Romance of the Three Kingdoms or the Odyssey(sp?), if you read those. Is it possible to buy the book _relatively_ cheap? Is the character that has Jeanes star(can't remember what its called ><) like her at all?

As for the titles, I can kind of understand the "All Men are Brothers" , seeing as the stars were supposed to band together to defeat a common evil, or something. But as for the water stuff, did the stars have a castle by the water? Because in the games your HQ has been near water so far, so maybe that would account for the water based titles?
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Starslasher · Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2004 10:24 pm Post subject:

To anser the first part, i actually read the book in my uni library, which makes me very lucky. I guess you would have to ask a librarian to order the book for you and stuff...or buy it online....

As for the Romance of the Three Kingdoms, i'm dying to read a translation on that! Yes, i know the gist of it by playing through the Dynasty Warrior games thoroughly, but i still want to read it! But i know that there's lots of characters there, so i'm guessing that it would be similar in a few aspects, but overall totally different. One distict difference is that ROTK takes place in the 3rd century AD, while SHZ takes place during the Sung Dynasty (roughly 16th century), i believe.

If you read the list of the stars, you would see that the Chiketsu star, Jeane's star, was made as a joke. The original character there was named Hsuan Tsan, nicknamed The Ugly Warrior , for obvious reasons! But maybe Jeane's form is but a mask for her ture form, which might be hideous....who knows.

Yes, the HQ for the 108 stars was in a mountain that was nearly or completely surrounded by water. Hence the HQ for the Toran Army being in the middle of a lake. And just for a fun fact, Geddoe's team's stars (Tenjyu, Tenhei, Tenson, Chisin, Chitai) and the Saint Loa's stars (Tenken, Tenzai and Tenhai) were all made to guard the waters of the HQ! It would make more sense in S1, which has made more parallels to the novel.

Hope that answers your questions!

Shrew · Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2004 11:36 pm Post subject:

There is a free translation of Romance of the Three Kingdoms available at http://www.threekingdoms.com Sure you have to stare at a computer screen or print out a ton of pages, but it is available.

Comparing what little I've read of Shui Hu Zhuan with Three Kingdoms... Shui Hu Zhuan strikes me as a much more "personal" novel than Three Kingdoms, which seems grander and more epic.

I wouldn't compare either to the Odyssey, except in the impact they had on their respective hemispheres.
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Starslasher · Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2004 1:04 am Post subject:

The thing about the Odessy is that it centers on only one character. That is Ulysees, or Odesseus, or whatever his name was. Shui Hu Zhuan centers on a number of characters, not only the Tenkai star.

And wow, thanks a whole lot Shrew! this really made my day!
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Deleted User 1 · Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2004 6:40 pm Post subject:

about the water margin title.............. its got little to do with the castle, but suikoden is a chinese word translated to english. sui actually means water, and as for the rest, well i forgot

Alkazar · Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2004 8:45 pm Post subject:

I'm not sure about the Chinese, as Suikoden isn't even a Chinese word to my knowledge, but the Japanese word "Suikoden" is Water Margin Legend in English... literally, it translates as "Water Legend." Unless there's some meaning for the smaller "ko" and "den" that I've over looked, which is quite possible. A lot of the name of book is to do with the castle, actually, as what was said about the HQ being nearly surrounded with water is true (once again, to my knowledge - I only know about the original story as has been passed to me through discussions).
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Deleted User 1 · Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2004 1:43 am Post subject:

I definatly know it was chinese (previous forums discussed this) if u know feng shui, the shui starts off the suikoden, the rest means something about the legend...

Noot · Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 3:28 am Post subject:

I had to read Buck's "The Good Earth" in high school, and maybe it's because I had to read it at the school's pace but I didn't like it too much. Is "All Men are Brothers" the same, if you've read any of Buck's other writings?

I would really like to read it, but I just checked www.bn.com (Barnes and Noble) and it says that "Shui Hu Zhuan" is not available, nor is "All Men are Brothers". "Outlaws of the Marsh" is available, however. Is there any real difference between the books or should I check another web site?
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Kobold · Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 10:37 pm Post subject:

Water margin is the more direct translation of the Shui Hu Zuan. Shui is indeed water, but the exact meaning of the last two words isn't easy to directly translate... i'll post here when i find the direct translation of it. My chinese/mandarin sucks..

As for some titles, they translate it to be outlaws of the marsh simply because their base was at a marsh, and they were outlaws..

As for the brothers thing translation, no idea... Possibly yeah, because all the 108 heroes were like brothers or something...
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Noot · Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 11:21 pm Post subject:

So it's the same book, just different translations?
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Starslasher · Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 11:28 pm Post subject:

hm, yes. If you check out other sites, you'll see that the names of the characters are slightly different in the book named "Outlaws of the Marsh" then from one named "All men are brothers".

Most are just different spelling, like it's Sung Chiang in ALAB, but in OOTM, it's spelled Song Jiang. But in ALAB the Chikyu star is named The Goodwife Hu. But in OOTM, she is named Hu San Niang. But i think the story is essentially the same...
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Rheo · Posted: Sun Oct 17, 2004 8:35 pm Post subject:

"Suikoden" is the Japanese prounciation of the Chinese novel "Shui Hu Zhuan"

Shui: Water
Hu: Margin, a place besides a body of water
Zhuan: Legend

So the direct translation would be "The Legend of the Water Margin" (The headquarter of the 108 stars, Liang Shan (Mt. Liang), is located in a Marsh, so here's the name "water margin")

Note that the Japanese full name for the game is actually "Genso Suikoden", "Genso" means fantasy.
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Starslasher · Posted: Sun Oct 17, 2004 9:51 pm Post subject:

Agahnim · Posted: Sun Oct 17, 2004 10:40 pm Post subject:

That makes me wonder what the the translation of GensoSuikoden as a whole would be.. or if the word Genso merely implies fantasy, but has no literal translation. My Japanese is very poor.

GD
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