Philosophy Corner

Borus · Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2004 11:58 pm Post subject: Philosophy Corner

Many people seem to believe that one can't make a living in the fields most colleges call the 'Liberal Arts'. Philosophy, Literature, Fine Arts, etc.

They are wrong.

If anyone has the time to relate it, I'd like to hear from people's varying points of view. I'd also like the moderator's and owners' perspectives on the issue.

I'm going to start with this notion. I know it isn't an original thought, neccessarily, as I was certainly not the first human being to have ever conceived it. Neither will I be the last or the only.

First and foremost is the Notion that every reality is shaped by every other reality. People tend to confuse facts and notions to an almost unimaginable level. The past is the only point in the arbitrary existence of 'Time' (I really hope someone challenges me here) whereby the strands of time (Lets assume the Universe 'see's Time as a tapestry, takes on a 'Color'. Of course the colors, like memories and other principles can fade and change, depending on what they are exposed to.

Infinite vs. Infinitessimal: This has bothered me for what often feels like an eternity. The notion of infinitely large vs infinity small. Do both infinitums converge at zero, or somewhere/somewhen else? When viewed against infinity, Nowhere becomes "Now Here", in this perspective.

Quarks, Quirks, Leptons, Neutrinos, and other waveform 'quantum' particles. Being basically a dabbler in quantum physics, and (these days) even less interested in conventional physics, take what I tell you with a grain of salt. What exists inside the sub sub atomic particles? Is it nothing? Is it the infinite? Does everything emanate from Void, or is void simply a state of Allthings ceasing to will themselves into being? Where is God in all of this? There are theories which state that we can be little more than God's dream, or the dream of those things which we dream. (Many will recall the names of those credited with the origins of such thoughts with far greater clarity than I).

Eccentricity vs the Norm: Now I point you to the direction of Eccentricity. STUDY YOUR LATIN, PEOPLE! You would not believe just how many archaic notions, we as a species cling to, dated back to the Roman Empire and long before! To refer to one as Eccentric refers to the possibility of a perfect synchronicity, am I wrong? (For God's sake, tell me if I am!) That means that a contained infinity, such as suggested by the sphere or the circle has a center. This is where the flaw begins in the DE-FINITIZATION of INFINITY! THE CIRCLE, or the Sphere. How many people here think that the Universe must be spherical because of the shape of all other things in this universe? How many others think that a circle or a sphere can adequately encompass the bigger picture?

I'd love to hear retorts.
Povis

Schala-Kid · Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 1:54 am Post subject:

if nothing is something, why do we call it nothing, simply because we cannot see it, define it, or understand it with the measures we have in place?

but if you say that it's something, then everything which is "something" is "something else" as it's tangible. and what is intangible being "something" would make all things we now consider "something" something greater than 'something'

:|

how does god fit into this? only where science fails will he be credited (God of the Gaps), but given time and human discovery, the secrets will be unravelled. it's only then that God will only be left to be a "planner". it's already somewhat a thought i have that a higher power (i don't care who it is) set something in motion, because i don't think it could've just happened by itself "for the hell of it". i believe in creationism, and the big bang theory, but i can't accept that these things just happened by chance. in that nothing cannot will itself into being.

since the universe is said to be infinatly expanding in all directions, the shape should be spherical in nature, but this doesn't take in the effects of magnetism, radiation, space winds and other stuff i have no idea about, which may alter the shape to some extent.

what about black holes then? are they something or nothing?

this is a great topic you've posted! i'd like to see other people thoughts because i would like to have a better grasp on everything!

Philosophy, Literature, fine arts so on, i have friends who studied in these fields, and are having trouble finding jobs. unless you are a AAA+++ academic, completly devoted to your field, then the chances of finding employment in the field are low, and highly competitive. also, it is common to find mature age students taking up studies with no intention of getting a job out of it - a female rock singer in Australia went to study religion just because she wanted to (she's a practicing witch too!). i don't mean to discredit arts/humanities disciplines at all - they'll learn a lot more than i ever will. i just find it sad that a lot of people enter these subjects with no intention to get a career out of it in the end. but, it's their life.

Starslasher · Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 2:32 am Post subject:

I'd like to also ponder first on how beneficial a degree in Philosophy is for employment. What job can you get that requires you to have a PhD in Philsophy?

Next, about God...God has set the world with the Laws of Physics. Keep in mind that we fil in the space of Infinity. While we think of Space as a void, filed with nothingness, there is something that allowed our astronauts to be there. there was light and gravity (from the influence of the Earth, Moon and other planets and satellites) there. God has created other worlds out there, but has made it our responsibility to guard this world. So yes, there is intelligent life out there.

The infinitismally (if there's such a word, but the notion should be there) small makes up the infinitismally large in its perfection. We are only insignificant in size, but significant to the Universe.
_________________
Guardian of Greenhill & Devoted Protector of Oulan

Bork! Bork! Bork!

Vextor · Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 2:44 am Post subject:

Actually, it's a common misconception that "Liberal Arts" equals fiels such as philosophy and literature. Liberal Arts is a pedagogical concept (paideia) based in the ancient Greek times, focused on acquiring the eight essencial "liberal skills." These liberal skills are: reading, writing, speaking, listening, observation, calculation, measuring, and reasoning. The core of a liberal arts curriculum is a non-vocational focus, because "liberal" in the true sense of the word means, "free of professional intent." Thus, a liberal arts curriculum is merely a curriculum designed to enhance students' liberal skills. That's why it is possible to have a bachelor of arts in a scientific field.

Axiose · Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 1:41 pm Post subject:

I like (purely for fun purposes) the tautilogical example for the existence of God which goes something similar to this.

The standard definition of God is "That than which nothing greater, can be imagined". You cannot physically imagine something greater than God itself.
So saying that you must always have an image in your mind of what God is, to reject (if you are so inclined) the existence of God. You cannot say I do not believe in God without understanding what God is.
With that image in mind, you must understand that God is pefect, so if you have an image and understanding of what God is, then he exists in your mind because you know what the idea of God is.
Something that exists in reality is greater than something that exists in your mind. Example being an apple in reality is greater than the same apple in your mind. So seeing as God is "That than which nothing greater, can be imagined" To exist purely in the mind would be less great than existing in reality. Therefore God must exist in reality otherwise God would not be the greatest thing imaginable.

I don't take that seriously by the way, I just find that funny as it's a semantic arguement that's nonsence which cannot be proven wrong.

When I talk about God, I prefer talking about God in terms of morality. I believe strongly in the idea that if there is a God, we could never, and will never, be able to grasp the concept in our world, mind and reality. It would be like a person in a 2D world trying to picture how a 3D object would look. So firstly I'd say there's no way a person could ever understand God, his purpose, or meaning.

Religious wars are basically people fighting over the different ways they worship their God. This takes away the purpose of worship altogether as you're focusing on how you look at God, and not simply just looking at God.

I know there a hundreds of different doctrine and religious dogma depicting what God's plan is. But in the end, if God's plan causes harm and destruction, then there's very little point worshipping a being like that.

adrich · Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 5:46 pm Post subject:

I have never been able to accept "God" as any sort of explanation for the universe as it is. If the universe needs a reason for existence then why doesn't "God"? I am far more satisfied with uncertainty than I am with taking things on faith or believing in something "just because." I see "God" as a metaphor, perhaps a euphemism, for that which cannot be explained.

That being said, I think everyone must accept that there will be certain things which simply cannot be understood or explained. Attributing it to "God" is just an easy way for some people to think of it, I suppose.

Now, the problem with the infinite is that it is beyond comprehension. Our mind, naturally, has limitations, and the very principle behind infinity is that there are none. It has always been my belief that, in general, as part of the universe we cannot fully comprehend the universe. It seems quite likely, to me, that infinity simply doesn't exist.

The main problem with human understanding is that we see everything in relation to ourselves. Size (infinitely large or infinitesimally small) is relative only. When we say "large" we mean "larger" and when we say "small" we mean "smaller". Thus, something becomes infinitely large when it is so large that we cannot truly think of it in relation to ourselves. This doesn't mean it doesn't have a definite size; it simply means that it is beyond our limited perception and comprehension of the universe.

Sophita · Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 10:35 pm Post subject: Re: Philosophy Corner

Kohaku · Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 11:11 pm Post subject:

We need "God".
I tried not to look at this matter from religious side.
First, why were you born? human doesn't live long and they need some purpose for living, since you're back to dust when you're dead. Now if you live only to die then what's the purpose of everything you've done while you're living? why don't you live just for your own good? that's when the figure of "God" is needed.
Second, God gives you hope. The thought of power beyond comperhension could make you think that Everything could happen according to his will.
Third, we need god for blaming. "Yes, I've tried my best, but God just didn't allow it"
_________________

Schala-Kid · Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 11:40 pm Post subject:

Kohaku · Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 11:48 pm Post subject:

hmmm, you got a point there :mrgreen:
But what I wanted to point out is "What will happen to you when you're dead".
When you believe in no god, that means that when you die then everything is over, there would be no "you".
_________________

Borus · Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 12:38 am Post subject: PostModern Nihilism?

Ahh, my dear queen of the warrior women...

That is a very specific instance you are asking for, and one I must concede woud not likely appear in any newspaper. (Though in some of the more liberal papers and local fishwrappers of the world, it would not suprise me in the least.)

Let me clarify my stance on that by saying that {I believe} one's intentions toward their own species plays an enormous role in their success with such a degree. I'm not actually certain that Nihilism is taught as a full credit course anywhere (though, again, it would not suprise me in the least), but there are applications for people who have the drive to see their plans through.

How did you come to find Falaena as your home? I have the impression that you have the archetypal warrior spirit. I prise Knowledge, Wisdom, and the quest for understanding the world I live in above all things. Faith is, {to me} an element of the standard human psyche. Religions and truth seekers are still sought today. Are you acquainted with any Wiccans? Mind you, I'm not gifted with an aggressive spirit. My take on Faith is that, like everything in the universe, one's reality is shaped by many factors. Internal as well as external. Look at the planet itself. Geothermic forces within, Solar Winds and other celestial phenomenon without.

As a {/n arguably appropriate} sidenote, I like Wiccans and people with faiths that center on their planet and their relationship to it, however anthropomorphized the gods and goddeses are. Think of how many secrets to y-our own DNA are yet unlocked. I tend to look for knoweldge for the sake of knowledge sake. The 'Devil' I know is one who abuses a kind of knowledge by failing to serve his/her own species. Even so, one's meat is another's poison.

I can't say that a PhD in any particular field will guarantee a successful career for anyone who hasn;t the drive and ambition to look beyond themselves, anymore than I could declare that it can't. There are plenty of people others might call slackers who have all the wealth and success others covet. I honestly believe that people who have strong sense of faith and a even greater sense of gratitude to the universe (My general terminology for the word God) they live in, have a much easier time of their lives than those who whittle their days away complaining about every little thing. People require things for their continued existence. Food, Drink, Sex, Love, Compassion. When people fail to provide those things for themselves because they are too busy coveting what everyone else has, it has always seemed to me that they are the one's who suffer.

I am, and will always consider myself a very lucky person. While I was not an orphan born into a country torn by war, there was a time in my life when I thought that everything was tuned against me. What I've realised is that the Universe is a great deal more like the ocean than like a god. I don't really think it cares if you sink in it or swim in it. It likely doesn;t care if you're even anywhere near it. It doesn't (so far as I can comprehend) own a human heart, but that doesn't mean it doesn't support humans who believe in the vastness of what it has to offer.

I think that if you give a little thought to what I've said, you'd see that even a degree as abstractly humorous as the one you've suggested could turn out to be a blessing for anyone who has the drive to take it there.

So, what makes up that drive you ask? I don;t know. It's an extremely sad truth that there are people without the food, education, or love that they need. To be honest, I am not a huge fan of publicly consumed education. I think that creative individuals, as those which infest message boards like these are all wasted talents when they fail to serve their own species on some level. If anyone fails in my world, it is only in so much as they have failed to realize that in expressing the love of the world they live in to each and the other, as well as to their universe and their planet. I sincerely believe that there is not a human being on the earth who can not teach me something.

Borus · Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 12:40 am Post subject:

Just in case,

Nothing I have written is designed to offend. I sincerely believe in the brotherhood of mankind.

Solitude · Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 12:48 am Post subject:

"What will happen to you when you're dead".
Just like you said you will return to dust. As for your conciousness the reality of it is probably that it will cease to exist. It will go back to nothingness just like it started.

So the question is. If we live when we will ultimatly become nothing, why do we strive so hard to survive? Its really a contradictory statement. If we need a purpose for living and that purpose is survival what is the purpose for survival? Is it not a longing to try and figure out what to do? It all comes back to the original thought of this forum. Something from nothing and nothing from something. Like what are humans made of? Atoms; what are atoms made of? Protons, Nuetrons and electrons. But what are they made of and so on and so forth.

This is where God and Religion come in. To explain things in which Science can not. Science vs. Religion, God vs. Reason. Its all opposites. Basically man kind is just trying to find the middle. Use a satirist scale of vicousness and foolishness compared to people for example. The perfect human being would be exactly in the middle. He would not be a Hitler on the far vicious side but he would not be Voltaire's Candide either.

This is why I believe that people are not searching for a purpose to live and do not live just to survive. People can survive but still long for something. And people can find their purpose in life and also still long for something. That something is happiness. Once someone is truley happy they will not keep looking for their purpose in life because they are happy with where they are now. And once someone is truley happy they can accept death and nolonger cling to the necessity to survive. They can accept death with no regrets as to anything.

The only problem is no one will ever find true happiness so life will be filled with questions and false hopes in an order to get to the middle of acceptance and happiness.

Vextor · Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 2:00 am Post subject:

"You will never be happy if you continue to search for what happiness consists of. You will never live if you are looking for the meaning of life." - Albert Camus

That's probably the best thing ever said on this subject!

adrich · Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 2:10 am Post subject:

I am satisfied in knowing that by merely existing I have altered the course of the universe. What happens beyond death is of little concern to me. Maybe later in life I may care, but I really can't say at this point.

I live for myself. Everything I do in one way or another is for myself. I would like to think that I live my life to help other people or something along those lines, but the ultimate reality is that I am driven by a need to fulfill my own desires. A good person is not defined by being "selfless" because such a thing does not exist. After all, in order to serve others you must first serve yourself. You cannot save a dying person when you are dying. Even if you are helping other people at a cost to yourself you are seeking some type of mental or emotional satisfaction. I am seeking fulfillment of my desires, which will not lead so much to happiness as it will to contentment.

The idea of "Science vs. Religion" has always seemed fairly laughable to me. Religion has no innate aspects which naturally conflict with science. People get trapped into thinking that their own beliefs are THE religion, but religions don't need afterlives and they don't need gods. A person's religion is simply their own set of beliefs, which may coincide perfectly with the principles of science.

Futhermore, it seems to me that most people don't understand the true nature of science. Science is not a collection of facts, but rather a process for trying to understand the world around us. Another thing that shows me most people don't understand the nature of science is how often I hear "just a theory". I've seen people dismiss evolution (for example) as "just a theory" but the fact of the matter is that theories are the very backbone of science. Nothing in science is ever proven, but theories must be heavily supported before they can be called such. Gravity, for instance, is "just a theory", but you don't see many people disputing it.

Instead of saying "Science vs. Religion" perhaps we should be saying "Prejudices vs. Prejudices", because that is essentially what it is. All of the information we gather in life is based around our own particular way of seeing things. Just as two people can read the same novel and get different meanings out of it based on their own experiences, two people can live in the same world and have different explanations for it based on their own unique position. However, religion is something that is far too personal to be easily communicated to other people. That is why I find science a more adequate way to seek understanding in most situations.

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