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Lucretia as a tactition *SPOILERS*
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runemaster

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Lucretia is with no doubt one of the best tacticians of suikoden.She was constantly showing her skill by continously estimating the events which would take place and by doing so she was able to take precautions and set up a stratagy in case that scenario took place, which most of the time it did. As Delsaber, has said apple was more of a historian than a tactician so she couldn't possibly be anyware was good as lucretia although apple showed her ability on more than one occasion. Ceaser, elenor, are both acomplished tacticans and are good at what they do but can not really hold a candle to lucretia in my opinion. Leon could definatly have a good chance at out-manevuering lucretia but I am not so sure about albert. What ever the cause, Lucretia is one of the best tactians suikoden has ever had.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

To me, Leon & Albert > all.

Leon shortens three wars and concludes them with the winning side having a relatively stable rule over the land. In the Scarlet-Jowston war, Leon's Kalekka tactic while double-edged allows the Scarlet Moon Empire to hastily push out South Window/Tinto forces from the border, never to return again. He then proceeds to speed up the end of the Gate Rune wars upon Mathiu's request. Finally in the Dunan Unification War, he plays Highland and Jowston off eachother to eventually ensure Jowston's victory. He is the man that brought down Luca Blight.

Albert seems to be continuing the work and genius of Leon by orchestrating the whole of the Second Fire Bringer war to further his ambitions to achieve power in an unknown state to the west. I know we'll see him again in Suikoden some day. Albert uses Harmonia, The Grassland, Zexen and Tinto for something so simple.


Last edited by Ujitsuna on Tue Aug 22, 2006 1:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
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runemaster

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Thats actually quite true, they do seem to be the 2 top tacticians...all things and people considered.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 2:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Lucretia, as a tactician, is good. In fact, she's too good. She's a goddess when it comes to military strategy. That is the very reason why I dislike her. She made the game boring for me. I mean, would it kill her to make a slight miscalculation? She made me think the villains of the game were utter crap and very weak.

So yeah, I like Lucretia as a tactician but a hate her as a character.
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Ashley Riot

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 2:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I don't know that I'd go that far-- she made a big miscalculation at the Queen's Campaign, one that potentially could have ruined the entire war if a certain character had been less than noble. And I don't think she was a step ahead of the Godwins so much as they were both on the same page at all times, equally matched.

I think the problem many people have with Lucretia is that she really doesn't make you feel like an underdog. In Suikoden III, for example, you were on the ropes after at least two major routings of your forces, which helped make Caesar appear more invaluable (even if he's not the best you could ask for). Lucretia's very nearly a superweapon in and of herself, so you always feel like you stand a 50-50 chance at least.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 2:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I beg to disagree Ashley, but I don't find the Royalist Army and the Godwins equally matched. For the most part of the game, the Godwins were on the losing end. And it's all because of Lucretia's genius plans. The Godwins don't have a military strategist on their side with the caliber equal to Lucretia's. Their plans were EASILY read(with the exception of the twilight rune event) by Lady Merces.

This is what makes the game boring for me because of the lack of a competitive opposition.
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Ashley Riot

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 4:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Well, I won't deny the Godwins only continue to lose power and public face from the moment you recruit Lucretia, but just because she can read their strategy doesn't mean there's no competition. She's shown she can slip up. Between Sialeeds and the Twilight Rune, there were things Lucretia simply couldn't account for, and arguably her greatest failing is her inability to take action unless she has proof of her suspicions (which, I'll admit, could be one of her greatest virtues, too).

I find less to go on where the Godwins are concerned, I'll have to confess, but it still hasn't been too long since I finished the game and I'm still confused as to their motives, especially after the game had the gall to try to present them as good and noble, so I can only argue on the topic of Lucretia, unfortunately.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 6:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

She is the best tactitian in the series she knew what would happened she knows everything about everyone as well.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2006 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I disagree with you guys, it's not possible to evaluate Lucretia's tactician level for two reason: 1) The godwin were really stupid and 2) She was incredible lucky in all crucial points.

For example: The fall of Hatred Fortress

1)She knows someone who has a theory about controlling the river flow. (Fine she could have met him when she worked for the godwins)
2)His theory is true. (The odds were fifth-fifth, she would have lost a great amount of time if this was false. Ok, her lucky is reasonable)
3)The hero has the key to use the ruins. (WTF??? You don't have to even look for it)
4) He found this key by coincidence in the Barow Basement. (Even if she knows the Barows are planning something evil, she can never know the rune is in the basement, you can only find this thanks to Euram, which already is absurdly lucky. Yet it isn't over, by lucky the rune choose you. It's almost impossible to you have so many good things happening at the same time.)
5)the beavers feel guilty about building the fortress and will take counter measures to keep lordlake save. (No, it's not over yet, once again she can only execute this crazy plan because everything is on its place. How can she know the beavers will help?)

OMG!!! She is queen luck, everything is on its place for her to win, but you guys will complain, so here's another example: The Armes invasion repel!

1) Slow the enemy advance and don't leave any supplies. After that, we evacuate the castle. (So far so good)
2) Have means to flood the castle (As I already have told, finding the dawn and it being the key to the ruins, it's stupidly lucky already)
3) Go to the ruins to flood the castle ( This one deserves some extra talking:

For it to work, the prince must travel trough the enemy territory, defeat the guards on the ruins doors (Gizel supossedly know about the ruins controlling the lake level), enter the ruins, change the water level and leave before reinforcements came. Probably the area around the ruins is well guarded, being the entrance to the ruins and close to the lake castle.

But guess what, you don't need to do any of that, because you just befriended the dwarfs and they have underground ways of transportation And guess what, the tunnels lead DIRECTLY to the ruins. (the dwarves were not your allies at this point and wouldn't be involved in the war if Gizel didn't order Nether Gate to attack them)

OMG!!! You don't have even to risk yourself from traveling from Yashuna Village to there. Even Shu wouldn't see that one coming.(he probably would know the war wasn't over, but a garrison would surely die there) It is an incredible lucky.

I'm sorry, Lucretia is an ordinary Tactician with incredible lucky, she weave plots very well, but that's it. Probably she is on the same level as Apple(SIII).
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2006 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Rezard wrote:
I disagree with you guys, it's not possible to evaluate Lucretia's tactician level for two reason: 1) The godwin were really stupid and 2) She was incredible lucky in all crucial points.

For example: The fall of Hatred Fortress

1)She knows someone who has a theory about controlling the river flow. (Fine she could have met him when she worked for the godwins)
2)His theory is true. (The odds were fifth-fifth, she would have lost a great amount of time if this was false. Ok, her lucky is reasonable)
3)The hero has the key to use the ruins. (WTF??? You don't have to even look for it)
4) He found this key by coincidence in the Barow Basement. (Even if she knows the Barows are planning something evil, she can never know the rune is in the basement, you can only find this thanks to Euram, which already is absurdly lucky. Yet it isn't over, by lucky the rune choose you. It's almost impossible to you have so many good things happening at the same time.)
5)the beavers feel guilty about building the fortress and will take counter measures to keep lordlake save. (No, it's not over yet, once again she can only execute this crazy plan because everything is on its place. How can she know the beavers will help?)

OMG!!! She is queen luck, everything is on its place for her to win, but you guys will complain, so here's another example: The Armes invasion repel!

1) Slow the enemy advance and don't leave any supplies. After that, we evacuate the castle. (So far so good)
2) Have means to flood the castle (As I already have told, finding the dawn and it being the key to the ruins, it's stupidly lucky already)
3) Go to the ruins to flood the castle ( This one deserves some extra talking:

For it to work, the prince must travel trough the enemy territory, defeat the guards on the ruins doors (Gizel supossedly know about the ruins controlling the lake level), enter the ruins, change the water level and leave before reinforcements came. Probably the area around the ruins is well guarded, being the entrance to the ruins and close to the lake castle.

But guess what, you don't need to do any of that, because you just befriended the dwarfs and they have underground ways of transportation And guess what, the tunnels lead DIRECTLY to the ruins. (the dwarves were not your allies at this point and wouldn't be involved in the war if Gizel didn't order Nether Gate to attack them)

OMG!!! You don't have even to risk yourself from traveling from Yashuna Village to there. Even Shu wouldn't see that one coming.(he probably would know the war wasn't over, but a garrison would surely die there) It is an incredible lucky.

I'm sorry, Lucretia is an ordinary Tactician with incredible lucky, she weave plots very well, but that's it. Probably she is on the same level as Apple(SIII).


Using this logic, every action by every strategist in the series is luck-based. Nobody can be 100% sure about everything. But Lucretia did do a great job of manipulation as well as using unusual/unpredictable tactics in order to defeat the Godwins.

The Godwins were not incompetetent. They just simply did not have a strategist with the skill and experience of Lucretia. Besides, most of their military ploys were meant to buy time. Beating the Prince would've been nice, but they weren't riding on victory.
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Swish

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2006 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

poorguy171 wrote:
Using this logic, every action by every strategist in the series is luck-based.


Actually, using that logic, every action by every stratigets everywhere would be luck-based.... and in reality, that's true. Noone knows the outcome of any battle before it happens. The "Master" Strategists are only proven so because they were lucky enough to win the battle... regardless of the scenario of each situation.

My issue with Lucretia is that there isn't any history of her being a "great" strategist. She's only declared such by the Silverberg haters.

Her history is a successful campaign against the, seemingly never out to win, Godwins, which Shu could have done (and, personally, i think Shu is the worst strategist in the Suikoden world due to his relying almost entirely on luck to win). And a flawless victory over New Armes (ok, i can buy that. Leon had, for all intents and purposes, a flawless victory over Jowstown prior to Suikoden 1).

But she has no records prior as a "great" strategist. Or even a good one, for that matter. At least each of the Silverbergs had an upbringing. The knowledge of strategy passed down through the family. Not to mention a number of them actually holding a post as the strategist of their respective countries for numerous years.

In order to say Lucretia is as good, if not better, than ANY of the Silverbergs, you'd have to figure out how well she'd have done in one of their wars (and vice versa)... and to say, in such scenarios, that she knows the layout and history of the areas, would also imply that the Silverbergs would hold the same knowledge of Felena.

While i admit that Shu, Albert, and Ceaser would probably be worse than Lucretia, Leon, Mathieu, and Elenor would likely wipe the floor given the same situations.

I think the main reason why so many people are so enamoured with Lucretia than the others, though, is because she's with you for practically the entire game. There's only one (two, tops) strategy battle where she's not there. So she builds you up from a crap army all the way to a army capable of reuniting Felena... whereas all the other strategists join you after you have done some of the work yourself....
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2006 1:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

hmm...
How could it be luck? I mean she couldn't just be that lucky to foresee what would happen.
I assume that she studied all about Falena; meaning the citizens, maps, history and etc....
But for me, her strategies are outstanding (I never noticed Shu and Caesar's strategy cause I was TOO young to understand.) :*laugh*:
But I really wondered how she knew the Sindar ruins in Ceras Lake...How did she know that there was the key for the destruction of Hatred Fortress? I mean Zweig wouldn't just tell her everything he knew.. .
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2006 4:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Onix wrote:

But I really wondered how she knew the Sindar ruins in Ceras Lake...How did she know that there was the key for the destruction of Hatred Fortress? I mean Zweig wouldn't just tell her everything he knew.. .


With all of her studying, she probably already knew that Felena was a river based society. So she might have figured that a society that predates the Queendom, and is known to be technologically advanced may have figured a way to manipulate the waterways in some way. At the time (as long as she is questioned during the sequence of events)Lucretia isn't entirely positive on the outcome, she keeps you in the dark until the big reveal of the master plan.

Is it just me or does Lucretia come off as a bit of a perfectionist. In terms of being a tactician she goes out of her way to avoid looking less than perfect. (I would cite some examples, but I'm iffy on the count that they're plot spoilers..sort of)[/b]
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poorguy171




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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2006 4:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I'll begin by showing why I believe Lucretia did not depend on luck in every situation:

1)She knows someone who has a theory about controlling the river flow. (Fine she could have met him when she worked for the godwins)
2)His theory is true. (The odds were fifth-fifth, she would have lost a great amount of time if this was false. Ok, her lucky is reasonable)
3)The hero has the key to use the ruins. (WTF??? You don't have to even look for it)


How is this luck? The Prince has the Dawn Rune, so she made use of that. Obviously, she could've used a different strategy if he didn't have it. This is why I think she's such a great tactition. She uses all sorts of elements in her environment to her advantage to make one plan that's not only unexpected but extremely difficult to counter.

4) He found this key by coincidence in the Barow Basement. (Even if she knows the Barows are planning something evil, she can never know the rune is in the basement, you can only find this thanks to Euram, which already is absurdly lucky. Yet it isn't over, by lucky the rune choose you. It's almost impossible to you have so many good things happening at the same time.)

Everyone knew that Barows had something to do with the uprising. Regardless of how the Prince had gotten the Rune, he had it, and she used this to her advantage.

5)the beavers feel guilty about building the fortress and will take counter measures to keep lordlake save. (No, it's not over yet, once again she can only execute this crazy plan because everything is on its place. How can she know the beavers will help?)

She doesn't. That's why she sends the Prince in to convince them to help. And it's not like her plan depended on the beavers. Who's to say she couldn't have slowed down the water flow some other way?

1) Slow the enemy advance and don't leave any supplies. After that, we evacuate the castle. (So far so good)
2) Have means to flood the castle (As I already have told, finding the dawn and it being the key to the ruins, it's stupidly lucky already)
3) Go to the ruins to flood the castle ( This one deserves some extra talking:

For it to work, the prince must travel trough the enemy territory, defeat the guards on the ruins doors (Gizel supossedly know about the ruins controlling the lake level), enter the ruins, change the water level and leave before reinforcements came. Probably the area around the ruins is well guarded, being the entrance to the ruins and close to the lake castle.


It never said in the game that the Godwins knew about the sluice gates. They didn't even know the ruins existed until Faroush and co. revealed the Sindar castle. Considering that the Prince was able to fight his way to other places (such as the actual fortress in Doraat), there would be no reason the Prince couldn't fight his way in. But this could result in unecessary casualties, and would alert the enemy ahead of time, so...

But guess what, you don't need to do any of that, because you just befriended the dwarfs and they have underground ways of transportation And guess what, the tunnels lead DIRECTLY to the ruins. (the dwarves were not your allies at this point and wouldn't be involved in the war if Gizel didn't order Nether Gate to attack them)

Actually yeah, the dwarves were allied with the Prince already (which was not Lucretia's doing), and so there's no reason they couldn't have dug a tunnel to the ruins. And they did not join solely because Nether Gate attacked. They had in fact agreed to help him before Nether Gate even appeared, they simply supported him officially (full force) after the attack.

Lucretia did not depend on luck. She planned ahead and used elements in her surroundings/situations to create complex and unpredictable strategies.

And your point about having no history is false as well. We know for a fact that she used genius tactics in order to thwart the Armes invasion (this is stated in the game). We also know that she served Falena for years, and that she's been in the country for over 8 years.

To say that Lucretia is bad and the Silverbergs are incredible because we don't know how she would've performed in one of their wars is ridiculous. Not only do we know that she's performed well in at least 2 Falenan wars, but we don't know how the Silverbergs would've performed in either Falenan war.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2006 4:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Cupil wrote:
Onix wrote:

But I really wondered how she knew the Sindar ruins in Ceras Lake...How did she know that there was the key for the destruction of Hatred Fortress? I mean Zweig wouldn't just tell her everything he knew.. .


With all of her studying, she probably already knew that Felena was a river based society. So she might have figured that a society that predates the Queendom, and is known to be technologically advanced may have figured a way to manipulate the waterways in some way. At the time (as long as she is questioned during the sequence of events)Lucretia isn't entirely positive on the outcome, she keeps you in the dark until the big reveal of the master plan.

Doesn't it say in the game that Zweig told her about it? I remember him saying something about telling her about ruins and not being suprised that she would want to use them as a weapon.

Is it just me or does Lucretia come off as a bit of a perfectionist. In terms of being a tactician she goes out of her way to avoid looking less than perfect. (I would cite some examples, but I'm iffy on the count that they're plot spoilers..sort of)

For a lot of the game, that's absolutely true. Remember when she told Lelei that a tactition should never apologize in public? And how she always keeps quiet if she's not 100% sure about something. However, as the plot progresses, she seems to realize that it's okay for a tactition to make mistakes, and eventually changes her philosophy.

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