The Tablet of Stars: What's the Deal?

[Krawnik]

I'd like to bring up a topic that has been bothering me for a while now. I want to discuss everyone's favourite slab of granite, the Tablet of Stars, which records for the player which of the 108 Stars of Destiny have been recruited, and if applicable, which have died. For the most part, the Tablet does a great job, and I'd be the first to congratulate it, if it weren't inanimate. But there are is an interesting phonomenon in Suikoden III I'd like to discuss.

In Suikoden III, pretty much everyone with a portrait joins the Stars of Destiny, and is added to the Tablet of Stars. Including, unknowingly and against their wills, the Destroyers. This has always seemed so odd to me. Why would the four antagonists of the game be Stars of Destiny in a campaign launched against them? What, exactly, is the criteria for appearing on the Tablet of Stars?

Previous installations, and subsequent installations too, would have you believe that the Stars of Destiny are united by destiny against a common enemy- the Scarlet Moon Empire, Highland, Kooluk, or what have you. But Suikoden III was a lot more "personal" than the other titles- the war, by the end, is being waged against individuals, not a nation. In this case, we could say that maybe everybody in the game- even the Destroyers, are fighting a common enemy?

But who?

On the surface, it would appear as though the Grasslands, Zexen, and parts of Harmonia are fighting Luc and co., in order to prevent him from destroying his True Wind Rune, and everything for miles around him in the process. The game is very much about conflicting forces coming together in order to fight a common enemy- from "New Game" the game is about the Grasslands fighting Zexen, and after a while it's about Grasslands and Zexen fighting Harmonia. All these factions end up uniting to fight Luc. But then Luc joins the fray as well- even though you're still actively fighting against him.

Could this have something to do with Luc fighting destiny? Although on the surface, it would appear as though the Fire Bringer are fighting to stop Luc, we could step back slightly, and see the situation more generally. Luc is trying to fight the destiny of the world, and of mankind- to return to a state of nothingness, the Silent World, as the True Wind Rune has shown him. In a way, The Fire Bringer are fighting this as well- should Luc succesfully destroy the True Wind Rune, everything for miles around will be reduced to ash- their lives will be ended, and their homeland destroyed. Luc and the Fire Bringer are both fighting to stop stagnation- Luc in the long term, and the Fire Bringer in the short term. In this way we could say that the Destroyers and the Fire Bringer are all fighting for the right to exist, even if they are fighting eachother for that right. They have a common enemy, and are united under destiny to fight that enemy, even if they have to fight eachother in the process.

But it does raise some interesting questions. Characters in personal conflict with eachother have always been able to co-exist on the Tablet of Stars. Valeria and Anita in Suikoden II, or Sigurd and Keen in Suikoden IV, for a few examples. But does the revelation in Suikoden III mean that forces actively in combat with eachother can appear on the Tablet of Stars with eachother? Does the Tablet respond to political or ethical unity, like in Suikoden I and II, in which all the members of the Tablet of Stars were fighting one enemy together, or does it act on a higher plane, considering a more abstract ally/enemy relationship? Has the fact that all Suikodens besides III contained a united Tablet of Stars been a great cosmic coincidence, or is the instance in Suikoden III a unique and bizarre exception?

Another interesting issue brought up here is the fact that Yuber appears as a Star of Destiny, the Tenyu Star to be precise. In previous installations, Yuber was a one-off mercenary style antagonist, and was absent from the Tablet of Stars accordingly. However, if he could be a Star of Destiny and an opponent in Suikoden III, who's to say he can't do the same in a future installation? There is definetly a window of oppurtunity for his reappearance in Suikoden, and since he showed his face on the Tablet of Stars in Suikoden III, he's even got that Tenyu Star reserved in case he decides to shift his allegiances in the future. Wouldn't it be interesting to have Pesmerga and Yuber both on your Tablet of Stars? Is the fact that Yuber joined the Stars of Destiny in Suikoden III the sole reason that Pesmerga was absent? (On account of, maybe, those two can never be on the same side of a conflict, even in the abstrated Platonic Suikoden III sense of the term 'conflict', in which warring factions can be considered on the same team.)

It's a lot to take in, and a lot to think about. Hopefully you guys have given the issue as much consideration as I have, because I personally consider this little episode to be the single most interesting and discussion-friendly aspect of any Suikoden title. What's presented above is merely my speculation- I'd love to see the opinions and theories of the rest of the community. So please, bring the discussion here! I think it really merits talking about!
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416- friggin' racists, messing up my generalizations, also stealing my jobs, women.
RIP Ninjalicious

[Vertius]

[runemaster]

I have to agree with Vertius, but must add that what I also think may be the reason is that the Destroyers were just fighting for what the believed in, and this fighting was with the Fire Bringers which I believe to be the reason why they were added to the Tablet of stars. The eternal fight for what is called a belief...
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-Harmonian Tensoku star-

[Solitude]

[Flare]

I think that being a Star of Destiny has no requirements other than being born under a certain star. Being born under a star doesn't mean that you are good or evil, it just means that you have the ability to help change destiny.
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The immortal chickens shall rule the world!!

[VikiFanatic]

[Elzamine]

Well as peple have stated, those on the tablet are born under stars of destriny and have the ability to change fate, or at least help with the process of doing such.

While a characters intentions may not always be the best for the main cause of the game, I would have to say that I don't think the tablet itself works with black and white. Even with all the misdeeds the characters do throughoutt he game, or even just being your opposition, that wouldn't change the fact that they are contributing to the change of fate, whether it be for the good or bad.

Luc's team in III, if that's the example.. well, while Luc was opposing your army the whole time, you have to remember his reasoning as well. He was rather nuts about the whole thing, but really, his intensions were to help the people, even if his ways of doing so were rather drastic. For all we know though, he could be right, and the world may very well end up how he feared it would. Because he died in the process and never completed what he set to do, if such were to happen,really his team would have been the righteous ones and the flame champion army, those in the wrong. Not that I believe such is the case, but it is a possibility. I think the tablet wouldn't distinguish between which cause is right or the better, but moreso those that have a cause that relates to another, whether it be in opposition or not.

I just look at it as the tablet of stars being objective haha ^^
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-My DeviantArt-

[Andarc]

Or, a very simple answer to the question is someone who actively is on your side at one point or another, in which case if you do get them on your tablet, means that you unlocked lucs chapter and thus that's the side you are on, however brief, it's logical that maybe you are fighting a common enemy in a way, but if that was the case, then why in suikoden II did jowy not appear on the Tablet? He was fighting a common enemy was he not? just in a different way, an unethical way! Although, this post did open my eyes to a few things, kudos to the topic creator
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[Yvl]

How about this then:

The enemy of the 108 stars in Suikoden 3 was the True Wind Rune.
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[Aurelien]

The problem that I have with Suikoden III's Destroyers is that none of them were recruited by the Tenkai Star (Thomas).

We know that pretty much everyone can be born under a star. But we also know that there can only be one set of Star of Destiny at one time. The question then becomes, just like Krawnik said, "What is the criteria to appear in the Tablet of Stars?" and while what Solitude said is pretty much spot on, I don't think it was really correct because it leaves a lot of loopholes.

Having the ability to change destiny is a good reason to explain how the Destroyers are in the Tablet of Stars in Suikoden III while being the "opposition", but it doesn't explain why Yuber was not a Star of Destiny in Suikoden I and II. His role in Suikoden I and II is pretty much similar to his role in III. He has always been a mercenary kind of character that is there simply to kill rather than to change destiny. His "cause" is simply because he was hired.

And the same goes for the characters that were in the Tablet of Stars but made reappearance without being in one such as Leon Silverberg, Kage, etc. So to me personally, to appear in Tablet of Stars, you have to be recruited by the Tenkai Star. The Tenkai Star was clearly chosen by Leknaat out of the gazillion people who were born under Tenkai Star. But once again, this doesn't explain on the Destroyers bit.

EDIT: Okay I've been thinking a bit, but since my memory of Suikoden III is a bit blurry, do correct me if I'm wrong. In Suikoden I and II, the Tenkai Star got the Tablet of Stars after Leknaat appeared and gave it along with Luc to guard the Tablet of Stars. But there was no such thing happening in Suikoden III.

In Suikoden III, the Tablet of Stars just appeared there. And since Luc is the guardian of Tablet of Stars in I and II, he might've been the one that put it there in III too. Naturally, he would consider his group (The Destroyers) to be in the Tablet of Stars, then he probably had a say in deciding who the Tenkai Star is. I mean, he has been an apprentice of the keeper of balance for so long anyways that he must've had something going on for him too.

But yeah, that's just my cheap explanation to fit in The Destroyers in Tablet of Stars in Suikoden III.
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~City-States of Jowston and Tinto Republic~
06.06.2004 - 20.01.2008

[El Regrs]

When you say "recruited by the Tenkai star," do you mean physically recruited, or does that include all folks who end up on your side? Because there have been cases where the Tenkai is not directly responsible for recruiting somebody. In Suikoden IV, you never directly recruit Oskar; he just eventually follows Deborah. In Suikoden III, anyone recruited by one of your three heroes is obviously not directly recruited by your Tenkai, including "story"/relationship recruits (for example, Duke to Geddoe). I'd also mention all the folks you start with in the games, but that'd be stretching it a bit (though Suikoden V seems to be the first Suikoden to make a point of recruiting almost everyone you knew in the beginning and their mama...but now I'm steering away from the point, haha).

[Aurelien]

What I meant with being recruited isn't really literal physically recruited by the Tenkai Star himself, but more like they joined the Tenkai Star for whatever reason. Kind of like how Alen and Grenseal joined Tir because of Teo's last wish, or Nina in Suikoden II just decided to tag along with Teresa and Shin as they escaped Greenhill, or how Chris/Hugo/Geddoe and those they recruited joined forces with Thomas as the host.

So it's more like characters joining the Tenkai Star's group, and when the Tenkai Star acknowledged and approved them joining, that's when they were 'recruited' into the group and their names appeared on the Tablet of Stars.

But then again, that doesn't really explain The Destroyers unless somehow Luc had a role in determining who is in the set and who isn't because he is the guardian of the stone in Suikoden I and II.

Personally, I just think that it might be a loophole that Konami accidentally created because they didn't think it through. Or Suikoden III was simply aiming to "break the tradition" by making things very different than the previous two games (weird SoD set, choice of 3 main characters, none of them being the Tenkai Star, etc).
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~City-States of Jowston and Tinto Republic~
06.06.2004 - 20.01.2008

[Lancet Jades]

One thing I've always thought is perhaps the Destroyers are on the tablet because the role they played was so significant? It was Luc's trechary and manipulation that led Zexen and Grassland against each other again, and Harmonia against both.
Although antagonists in other Suikodens have had considerable influence on the war (Barbarossa/Windy, Jowy/Luca, and Cray/possibly Troy - and no, I haven't played S5 yet >.>), their influence on things weren't all that greater than the counterbalance (the Tenkai star's forces and sympathizers).

Of course, even then, in other games, all the Stars actually join you and fight with you. But the trinity sight system seemed intended to showcase the story from the perspectives of the elemental true runes, and the tenkai star that binds them all together (even if Sasarai doesnt have a point in it). Assuming that logic, then, makes it obvious that Luc and his crew, as one of the elemental true rune bearers, would be considered Stars.

In other Suikodens, it's a two-point war, essentially. Stars vs. Enemy Country. But in S3, it's intended to be six different POVs, the elemental true runes + tenkai, all merging to form the "complete" story. Chris, Geddoe, Hugo, Sasarai, Luc, and Thomas. Like six different colors of light merging to form white (the 'true' story), each of their own destinies is part of the Stars. That rationale justifies Luc's place on the tablet, and by extension, his comrades' place.

I wish I could explain the concept better, but I guess my explanation is sufficient to get what I mean about how S3's fundamentally different than the others.
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[ferrouslupusrex]

Do the 108 Stars of Destiny even know they are stars of destiny?

I’ve always thought of this ever since S1. Oddly enough I never did bother to ask this any of the forums I go to.

Okay I can just imagine the hero asking around what kind of star signs each and every persons he bumps in to.

Hero: Umm sir. What star are you by any chance?
Person: I am a chiin star, me boyo.
Hero: Whoopee! I found my 106th star. Just the (what the heck is the star for the demi humans again?) to go and I’ll have the complete set.
Person: ???
Hero: Would you join my army sir. We are fighting the X army.
Person: Not before you play my game first: Tie yourself and attach a string to your neck then I’ll join you.
Hero: Eh? That’s fine, I guess. As long as you join
*Hero ties himself
*Person then drags the hero forcibly towards the enemy camp.

Lol. By that diatribe, I am more likely to subscribe to the idea that the hero, by fate, recruits the correct star of destiny to his army (or rather by the event script that is triggered by the hero doing X requirement the isrecruited value of the said SodD is changed to true, lawl)
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- 108 Soldiers, 1 for EVERY star.
Keynes' (Chapter 1 Hero) performing his kata

[Onimaru]

Hm, well - isn't it curious that there is a tablet of stars in the first place? I mean, it's kind of a given that anyone with and army and big granit slab with 108 stars on it is a given. This event has occured in history a number of times, and given that wouldn't the opposing force just be like "What the!? They have a tablet! argh! we're screwed!" Is the tablet a guarentee'd Victory per se?

Ok, the obvious answer to that question is that it's just a game merchanic thrown in so we players can keep track of who we've recruited, but the question stands!
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