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John Layfield
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 Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 9:16 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Revolving Sphere"]Unfortunately, even my flimsy theory holds just as much weight as the Creation Myth since neither can be proven true or false.[quote]
Not so. There is evidence regarding the Creation Myth. The Old Books and character quotes.
Name one piece of canon evidence supporting any other theory.
Does this make the Creation Myth true? No. But it has more EVIDENCE. Which is the point. No-where in the claim made by me that the Creation Myth is the truth but it does has the most canon evidence going for it at the moment.
If you're going to play the "You can't prove anything at all. Prove this, prove that. Prove that the sky is blue." game then there is no room for discussion.
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Urn
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| Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 9:37 pm Post subject: |
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LOL. And yet, anything in the Old Books about the Creation Myth can't be proven and I don't even know how character quotes even begins to be useful information in this discussion. But, the fact that True Runes are partially subserviant to mortals as they need them as conduits to use their powers and yes even the Beast Rune is subserviant due to the fact that it needs a sacrifice to unleash its powers are all true and canon. So, when you say that's not so I ask you to show proof that the myth actually took place. But, unfortunately there is none.
And I just gave you evidence supporting another theory, canon evidence. The Creation Myth is a myth, only canon in the fact that it appeared in the game, but even the creators say that the creation of the world and the True Runes is only suspectedly due to the Creation Story they tell. They even say that the creation of True Runes is unknown. Hence, it is canon that the Creation Myth is not solid evidence to the creation of True Runes.
And I don't play, I'm showing facts that simply can't be disputed or disproven. You say there is more evidence to support the Creation Theory, but that's not true. Any evidence in the myth is circumstantial, questionable and hence not true evidence at all. When you talk about evidence you need to be able to explain it by an actual occurence or facts.
There is no evidential proof that the Creation Myth actually occured and therefore no facts. No facts, then no evidence just rumors without support and even the Old Books fall within this realm of inconclusive rumors since their support is the Creation Myth which can't be proven at all. So, like I said, my theory, which actually has real evidential support is more feasible than the so-called Creation Myth. Am I saying that my theory is right, no, but it does have more evidential support than the myth.
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Last edited by Urn on Thu Apr 21, 2005 9:42 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Krawnik
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| Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 9:40 pm Post subject: |
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If the Suikoden World is only 1000 years old, there isn't a lot of breathing room at all. Don't forget that we don't just have modern humans/kobolds/nay-kobolds/ducks/lizards/human-animal-whatever-bolds to consider, there's also an entire other race in Suikoden that was eliminated before modern humans were about- the Sindar. Suikoden's equivalent to Neanderthal Man. In 1000 years not only did modern humans surface, but before they did, the Sindar had to evolve, create all the wonderful technology that is used ever-so-often, and then vanish entirely. Following THIS, modern humans had to take centre stage. So yeah, if you take the whole 1000 years thing literally, you get kind of boned chronologically, as has been mentioned.
About the Sword/Shield mythology, it's probably just that, a tale. All we know is that forces remotely similar to what caused the real Universe to exist seemed to occur in the Suikoden Universe, except with an additional magic twist, which created the True Runes.
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Urn
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| Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 9:49 pm Post subject: |
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What you say is true, but you must consider the fact that where the timeline started may just be based on the fact that recorded histroy started at that time. We cannot be truly sure when the first living being appeared in the Suikoden World. Recorded history just started about 1000 years ago and that's all we know. Beings could have been around hundreds of thousands of years before the chronology started.
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Flame Champion
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| Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 7:52 am Post subject: |
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Luc, in fact does care about the worlds existence but not about the people who inhabit it. "That future is not a future any of you desire." Sounds like more of a superior figure talking down to inferior figures. Luc has always had a superiority complex IMO. If things don't go his way he gets upset. The only time I can see him taking orders from anyone would be him taking orders from Leeknat. Thats it though. Just bringing stuff to attention is all.
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Earthquake923
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| Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 7:55 am Post subject: |
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Revolving Sphere,
| Quote: |
And yet, anything in the Old Books about the Creation Myth can't be proven and I don't even know how character quotes even begins to be useful information in this discussion
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"God" created the world, and yet we stand on it. Since the True RUnes were created (so they say) from the fight between Sword, and Shield, why shouldn't it be true. We all agree the world is round and that is what makes a fact(until it is disproven). But we are straying from the subject. As for the true runes being tools, I feel they try to bond with someone who has simular likes, and goal. If not the runes have changed people to further their needs.
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Ranadiel
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| Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 8:43 am Post subject: |
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| Earthquake923 wrote: |
| "God" created the world |
This is debatable. There is no proof for this other than some witings thousands of years old which is quite a long time after the creation of the world. As such it isn't that reliable for raw facts. This doesn't mean that it is false, but you can't just say it is true and leave it at that.
| Earthquake923 wrote: |
| Since the True RUnes were created (so they say) from the fight between Sword, and Shield, why shouldn't it be true. |
If taken literally, it shouldn't be true because the idea of a giant sword and shield fighting for seven days and seven nights in pure darkness(wait a sec how could there be days and nights if the only things that existed were darkness, a tear, a sword, and a shield)is just stupid. I have a feeling that there is indeed truth to it since it is mentioned in all four games, but it is probably a metaphor for whatever actually happened.
| Revolving Sphere wrote: |
| Beast Rune is subserviant due to the fact that it needs a sacrifice to unleash its powers |
I thought that it's powers were sealed in some fashion and it needed sacrifices to break the seal.
| wataru14 wrote: |
| The world is only 1000 years old? OK, so human evolution, science, culture and growth moved forward at rocket speed for a time and then slowed down to a crawl. |
Alright so let us assume that the Suikoden world is only 1000 years old. Does that mean that the other worlds(such as the world where dragons are from) are necessarily that old? If they aren't, then isn't it possible that the original inhabinents of the Suikoden world were immigrants from a different world. This would take care of the accelerated evolution and such.
Moving on to the central point of this topic. I think that they started to do prequals because they want to have Jowy and Riou in the final game, but if they move the storyline ahead much further it would be highly unlikely that they live that long, and if they did they would end up being old men who couldn't fight. I really wish that the cannon ending was that Riou got the Rune of Begining, but since he didn't we are just going to have to have the ending sometime soon after Suikoden 3. Oha nd of course the Apokolipse will be fought off in the final game becuase that is most appropriate.
As a final note is there any source that says how many jewels were on the sword and shield in the cretion myth because I have an idea, but it might not work if the number of gems is already set.
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Vextor
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| Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 9:12 am Post subject: |
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| His "care for all people" was basically a farce--something to legitimize his grandiose suicide and revenge against Hikusaak. That's official info with Konami's stamp. |
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Urn
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| Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 10:13 am Post subject: |
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The Beast Rune's power could only be used after a large blood sacrifice. This was its 'contract' for displaying its powers. Other than that, it would just remained sealed and inactive in L'Renouille castle. Thus, it relies on mortal actions to display its powers and thus it is semi-subserviant.
Note that I'm not saying that the Beast Rune could not act on its own, but that it has not displayed its powers on its own accord based on evidence from the games. It just seems that True Runes are just waiting around fo some bearer, with the will they desire, to come around and utilize their powers. This is why I believe they are basically tools symbolizing some other melevolent power.
And Ranadiel argued the post about 'God' creating the world most elequently. I couldn't have done better myself. As for why the True Runes require a certain type of bearer to use their powers, well they need someone who will fit their desires. Someone who they believe will take the path in which they tread. They are cognitive entities, but eventhough they are, they still must have this bearer to carry out their wills. This is what makes them tools.
There is a phrase that states "A sword is simply a decoration, but when in the right hands it becomes a tool of beauty and possesses the means for destruction" or the quote goes something like that. Basically, I'm saying that each True Rune has the power and potential to inhuman deeds, but without the proper bearer they are just simply grandiose decorations until they find the proper bearer to utilize them properly as the magnificent tools they are. Although they are tools, they symbolize something greater and this is simply what I believe.
As for how many jewels there was on Sword and how many were on Shield, there is no possible calculation for that. All we know is that 27 jewels, which were previously embedded in the Sword and Shield, fell to the earth amidst the epic clash between the Sword and Shield. We don't specifically know how many jewels were on each of those entities. But, with that information we know that the 27 True Runes existed before the clash with the Sword and Shield and thus could not have been created by them. Darkness and the Tear are the most likely creators of the True Runes.
As for why the game was made so far in the past, well I already expressed my opinion on that subject. It was just to give the creators more flexibility to expand the story. I believe that Riou and Jowy wil not appear again due to the fact that they both completely despise war and only wished to live together with Nanami. I think we will learn that they ditched the Bright Shield and Black Sword Runes in the cave and lived their lives out peacefully.
The only way I can see either one of them appearing is if they some how run into a battle during their travels, one of them (Jowy or Riou) dies, and the other becomes the bearer of the Rune of Beginning and decides to judge wars to prevent such things from happening to any other person. But, you see how cheesy that sounds? I think they will never truly be seen again, but we may hear about them.
And SARSadmin has officially answered the question about Luc as a fighter for world peace. There you have it, he was as selfish as ever and determined to get revenge on Harmonia by destroying his True Wind Rune. I thought he just wanted freedom, but it seems like he was misguided until the end. How ironic it is that he saught to destroy himself and the True Wind Rune to get back at Harmonia and ended up destroying himself only plus now Hikusaak has a means to recover the True Wind Rune. It's truly tragic. If he would have decided to live that could have hurt Harmonia more.
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