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Blackjack
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 Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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| I don't think I've even heard of [Koudelka]... What's it about? |
It's been forever, so please forgive me for any wrong details. This is the gist of it, though.
Koudelka takes place in the real world, in 1889 (I think. Somewhere around there). It is about Koudelka Iasant, a medium, who kept recieving messages to go to the Nematon Monastary, in Wales (The entire game takes place over the course of one night, in this monastary). Once she arrives, she meets an American traveller, Edward, and saves him. They then decide to explore the old place together. They then meet with a bishop, James, who was sent to locate three manuscripts that were stolen from the Vatican. All three of them decide to go together (safety in numbers and whatnot), and uncover the secrets of the very, very haunted monastary.
It's a really fun game and has a strong female protaganist (look! The topic! She is back!). I'll write a more detailed review of it in the review thread, if you wanna head over there. :D
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Sophita
The Wee Kitty Grand Duke Defense Brigade
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| Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 10:46 pm Post subject: |
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If You've played the Shadow Hearts series, Koudelka also appears in a small role in the first one. Koudelka is the prequel to SH and is referenced by it in the first one. (You also find out which ending of Koudelka is canon...*sad*) You might be more familiar with her there.
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Timbo
The Wandering Prophets
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| Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 10:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Sophita wrote: |
| Ditto Soul Calibur, really. For every Cassandra, there's a Seigfried. Girls have won SC's tournament, too - in fact, I think it may be the only fighting game where female competitors have won every single time. |
Girls own at fighting games. I was at Magfest one time, which is a gaming convention for those who haven't heard of it, and got completely trounced by this girl. I am an above average player at fighting games. I don't start counting frames and the like but I can hold my own against most people and usually have about a 4 to 3 win loss ratio at my house. Anyway, this girl completely trounced me. She was Xianghua and I was Voldo and we awere doing a best of five match. She beat me first round with me only doing like a fourth of her life, second round was a perfect on her part and the third round was close to the first. Later I saw her win a Guilty Gear X2 tournament.
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Blackjack
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| Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 11:46 pm Post subject: |
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She beat you because Xianghua is cheaper than...Something really, really cheap.
Stupid Xianghua. How I hate her.
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Benit149
Covenant of Cuchulainn
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| Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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So, here are the questions, they are about Final Fantasy VIII. My answers are below
1) Did you play final Fantasy VII? |
Yes, and I was thoroughly disappointed. Everything was flat and uninteresting except for the music, since Square was going for a more orchesta style.
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| 2) What did you think of the love story involved? |
To me, it became one of those 'badass guy becomes wailing idiot because his main squeeze is IN a squeeze'. FFVIII wasn't the only game to have this kind of protagonist: Grandia II has Ryudo mellowing his rough attitude while Elena and Milennia are around. I have to admit, hurtling through space IS an interesting way to express your undying love for someone, but Rinoa's constantly helpless behavior didn't salvage what little interest I had in the story. And I'm not going to get into the Seifer-Rinoa-Squall triangle. The relationship between Selphie and Irvine was more genuine than that, IMHO.
3) Do you think Final Fantasy VIII was a success or failure?
Personally, it was a failure. But sometimes failures can be good if the lessons are learned from it. FFIX somewhat repaired the damage done, while FFX restored it, only for FFX-2 to tamper with it again. But what can I say? I hated FFVIII. My friend didn't even get anywhere with it before quitting, whereas I finished it.
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| That said, I think some games have better luck courting female gamers than others. For example - I hate Dead or Alive. The entire game makes me uncomforable. I don't feel like I'm playing with female characters - I feel like I'm playing with blow up dolls. Everything in that game is to arouse a man's desire. What's the point in unlocking new outfits? |
Heh heh, my friend told me about Dead or Alive Volleyball, and I cringe at the mere thought. Lo and behold, one of her other friends (who is a guy) thinks it's the best game in the world. He knows how to manipulate the camera, and jokes around with his wife about it. Is there not something wrong about this picture?
Another fighting game that I've become infactuated with is the Toshinden series. Unfortunately, Ellis, Sofia and Tracy suffer the fanservice problem, but that's because their creator is Kotobuki Tsukasa, whom we all know as a kinky, borderline-hentai artist anyway. None of the other characters got me attracted to the series as much as Ellis did, though. Her design is original, her storyline actually left me breathless when we find out that Gaia is her father, and her fighting style is unorthodox. In fact, I heard one rumor that she won the first Toshinden tournmant. I have a lot of fun playing as her in either TS1 or TS3 (have yet to play TS2). But, I want to kill Obari for dumbing her down in the anime. And I don't mean mangle. I mean, "ACT LIKE A PIG!" murder and painting the town red. :evil: Oooh...
Okay, calm down... all right.
Now that I think about fighting games, let head back a little to when Street Fighter II came out for the Genesis. It's the grandfather of all fighting games, and if Ryu is the grandfather of stoic protagonists, Ken the grandfather of Japanese-American rivalry and Bison the grandfather of fighting villains, then Chun Li is the grandmother of femme fatales. And she has good reason to be legendary: until Cammy, Sakura and other females gradually came into the roster, it was Chun Li that maintained the female presence in the ring. In fact, Chun Li herself is a symbol of how girl gamers have evolved: first it was a small budding of girls, like how Chun Li was the only female in SF2 against these brutes. Now we're in 2005 and Street Fighter has many girl fighters, like how more and more girl gamers are coming onto the scene. Yet, Chun Li reminds us of how far we have come every time we pop SF2 into our Genesis.
I don't have the same attitude with SNK and King of Fighters. I'm going to assume that Mai Shiranui made KoF popular, apart from a much stronger storyline compared to SF. I don't see what's so special about her, other than her outlandish outfit and her infactuation towards Andy Bogard, who has yet to return any genuine feelings to her. To me, Mai doesn't contribute to the female gaming populace despite being female, and this applies to any fanservice oriented girls there are, such as the DoA cast.
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| Of course, I've never gone to a girls house to play video games, ever. I've never even played a video game with another girl. But that's just me. I just so happen to not have girlgamer friends. I do get the odd person that says to me "Wow you play video games! That's so cool!" and I'm going to assume that, that's because I don't look like a gamer, not because I'm a girl (Oh fudge it! I know that's why...). Of course my friends know I am gamier than most |
Hm. My best friend and I are total gamers who have no problem making video game jokes while looking for snacks in the grocery store. And then a previous friend before her liked games, and the one before her did as well, but it was games that actually ruined the first friendship. I became too obsessed with them. o_o And all of them are girl gamers like myself.
In RPGs, the damsels in distress and clingy types are all right as long as they fit with the game's time period of creation. If the game was made in 1990, it might not be such a problem because RPGs were getting some attention. Look at Shining Force II as an example, where Princess Elis is ALWAYS in trouble, but it's okay because a.) she's a steretypical princess, and b.) the game was made in the early-mid 90s. Having Rinoa in constant trouble is not. It's 1998 and she can't even make a conscious decision without Squall's back up, never mind fighting.
Now we're in 2005. Females have evolved beyond these images: they're more strong in character, tough as nails in battle, and some clothing designs are actually good if we omit the fanservice-only ladies. Back when female characters were restricted to mages and clerics, we now have amazons, valkyries, warriors, thieves, everything. The clothing designs seem to be verging away from total sexiness and thick dresses, but only gradually. If the men want to oggle over virtual babes, then let them play their little hentai games. We ladies are overcoming the barrier and making games omnisexual, and we know it.
FEMALE CHARACTERS IN DETAIL
These are females that I'm aware of that have a big impact on not just me, but in the industry. They define something and may have contributed to a more female friendly environment. Beware, this will take up a chunk of my post, so grab a coffee or take a break before reading. ^_^
CHUN LI: As I stated above, she is the grandmother of fighting queens. An absolute legend, hands down.
MORRIGAN: Now that Chun Li has been stated, I can now add Morrigan to the roster. Yes, she was sexy, but that's because succubi ARE sex demons. Plus, we never see any official footage of Morrigan attacking a hapless young man, and the way her breasts are covered makes one wonder if she wears some kind of adhesive. Anyway, Morrigan is like the other Chun Li for Capcom b/c she's been in so many Capcom fighting titles.
RYDIA: Ah, little Rydia. You could say that in all the FFs, her appearance in FF4 was but a small step towards creating stronger female characters for the FF series. Unlike Rosa, who was caught in a Kain-Rosa-Cecil triangle, Rydia is but a small child who fights alongside a dark knight, gets sucked into the lower world, grows up into a whip-wielding sorceress and joins the final battle party against Zeromus. There's just nothing I can dislike about Rydia. And her shaky relationship with Edge further adds some fandom for her.
AERIS: She was... different. Not once do I recall Aeris being an actual damsel, like slipping her foot in the mud, twisting her ankle and expecting Cloud to carry her on his back. No, her damsel-ness was different in that she fully understood what she had to do when her time came, and she accepted her death even though Cloud tried to save her. I didn't hate her, but I never got gripped into the Aeris fandom that raged the RPG community back in '97-'98ish. She died, people. Get over it. I want to bring Luca Blight back from the dead, but I know that it's impossible, okay? :wink:
YUFFIE: Back in the day, it was popular to dislike Yuffie. But I never did. She and Cid brought some color into the depressing crowd of unlikely world saviors. She may have stolen Materia and all that, but she's the only way to get the Leviathan Materia, and consequently the Master Summon Materia b/c Leviathan is there. I've always wondered what the hell was that white arm guard on her left arm, but it doesn't matter. Her dating scene with Cloud at the Gold Saucer was also the best: Tifa and Aeris' scenes made me yawn, but Yuffie's was hilarious.
YUNA: Of the FF females, Yuna and Rydia are my faves. Yuna also knew what she was doing and the consequences of completing her mission, yet she tried to do some drastic things like marry Seymour and kill Yunalesca. When she fell backwards and summoned Valefor to catch her, I couldn't hate her. She saved herself: she didn't really need Tidus' help, but he came anyway. Plus I'm a total sucker for odd eyes. Show me a picture of odd eyes, and I'm game.
ELLIS: Yep, already said it above. Good character design, good storyline, unique attacks, and she also has a unique chemistry with Gaia in that she doesn't hate him, but she never gained any love for him, although she'll do anything to help protect him from the Organization. She's a ganbare girl, and looks good doing it.
MILENNIA: WHOO, LET'S TEAR IT UP! Milennia was great. One of my original characters, aptly named 'Benit', has a personality closest to Milennia's: a take-no-crap woman who revels in blood and chaos, all without ruffling her clothes, and loves to pull practical jokes. Too bad she had to switch in and out with Elena. Regardless, Milennia is the cajun spice to Elena's sugar, and I love contrasts like that. Why they fought over Ryudo's attention is beyond me, and the ending doesn't satisfy the conclusion to which woman he picks.
NANAMI: Ah, the caring big sister that everyone would love to have... if she didn't cook so badly and act like a clown most of the time. But you know what? Nanami was the most genuine girl I encountered not just in Suikoden, but in any RPG. While she can fight, it doesn't mean she wants to. She always tries hard for Riou, and sometimes she'll pull through, sometimes she won't. She's not perfect: just human. And her decision to leave the Orange Army was not only brave, but very clever too. Nanami never became leader material, but she is a great support for the leader, being her younger foster brother. And who wouldn't want that kind of loyalty when you're forced to lead an army of thousands?
There are plenty of more females around, but I think that's enough. @_@;; However, I'm not discrediting the guys' power to do the same things. Ryu defined Street Fighter, Cecil's struggle helped make FF4 a success, Braska went through the same journey that Yuna did, Ryudo had a bad personality as much as Roan had a good one, and Gremio virtually raised McDohl since he was young. But I'm saying that girls are now being portrayed with the same capabilities and personalities, that girls are just as capable of the same things are boys are. Compared to 200 years ago, that is a HUGE step in society today.
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Arcana
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| Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 9:18 pm Post subject: |
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I actually believe that men have more disposable income when it comes to the G7 nations. While I won't dig up a statistic for this, women wouldn't be complaining about the fact that:
- There are very few women CEO's (The former female-CEO role-model of the Universe, Carly Fiorina, was recently removed from her position as Hewlett-Packard's CEO. She was the only female CEO on a Fortune 500 company something like 3 years ago - again I don't have time to dig up the statistic but I bet that now she's gone, there are no women CEOs leading a top company. Don't mention Martha Stewart, because in light of her recent circumstances she's a bad example).
- There are very few women politicians. No female president of the USA. Only one female prime minister in Canada, and she wasn't elected and only served for something like 5 months in office.
- There are many womens groups who complain about the inequality of salaries. Men, on average, get paid more than a woman who does the same job.
If you look around outside of North America, women tend not to gain as high rankings in employment as men do. Japan, for example, is a place where many men still have a belief that a woman's place is maintaining the household. So yes, I would believe that men have more disposable income, and therefore advertising gets targetted toward them because they're the ones with money to blow on cars, games, shaving cream, and electronic devices.
In the realm of female game characters, I'm surprised that Samus Aran, from Metroid, has not been mentioned. She's pretty much one of the pioneers of the modern video game action hero. You're blasting away aliens, doing super jumps, laying bombs, and generally doing everything you'd expect a superhero to do... and then she takes off the helmet and it's like, "WTF SAMUS IS A GIRL!!!!" Seeing the Metroid was released in what, 1987?, she's got to be among the first female icons.
That, even if no one here ever played Metroid and never pays attention to action games because they lack a story.
And fighting Games are animated eye-candy nowadays. EVERYONE is super-pretty, or super-hot. They're all naked, or don't wear shirts, or whatever. :)
I am most inclined to agree with Sophia on this issue - female gamers play more games because EVERYONE nowadays is playing more games. Gaming is now something that is seen as cool. FANDOM isn't necessarily cool, but if you say, "Final Fantasy, I've played that...." no one's going to think any more or less of you. This is the case for almost any kind of game, especially arcade games and console games. (However, PC games still have a bit geek reputation, even if the FPS crowd and the Halo crowd overlap, and MMOG's... don't even go there - that's major geek city).
Edit: I have yet to meet a women in any city where I live who is into fandom. I know women who will occasionally, perhaps, once in a while play video games. I know zero who are into fandom. Then again, I also have met maybe two guys in real life who are into fandom, so maybe it's the case that while games are acceptable social behaviour, being into fandom is not.
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kagematsuri
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| Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 3:41 am Post subject: |
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1) Did you play final Fantasy VII?
Yes, but not much. For every character I like (Zell) there's one I dislike (Rinoa), for every cool battle feature I like (Drawing) there's something I dislike (loooong summons). The whole love story bit I actually really dislike too. I don't even like Squall, but the pairing of him and Rinoa just seemed so forced. But hey, I never even made it through the first disc.
2) What did you think of the love story involved?
Like I said before, it just seems rather forced. I don't play video games for love stories (and I'm female), so it didn't make me like FFVIII any more.
3) Do you think Final Fantasy VIII was a success or failure?
It's on Greatest Hits...you do the math.
I actually used to go to womengamers.com a few years ago, even signed up on their forums. I didn't stay around long though, I just didn't quite...understand it. You're a girl and you play video games? Good for you, do you expect a trophy or something? Maybe it's because I've never had anyone, male or female, tell me I couldn't play games because I'm female. The closest I've gotten is one older man in EBGames who seemed shocked that my best friend and I actually love shopping there. He wasn't anywhere near rude, he just genuinely seemed to find it surprising and interesting that a couple teenage girls would be enthusiastically emptying their wallets on video games. Every other male I've encountered either didn't treat me anything special (which is perfectly fine) or told me how incredibly cool I am (which is also fine, just don't go overboard). XD
I've literally been playing videogames as long as I can remember. I wasn't even three years old when I first played Super Mario Bros. so all this fuss about females playing video games just seems really foreign to me. Same with some peoples assumptions that we'll only play/be good at certain types of games. Please. My favorite genre has always been fighting and some of my favorite games are Mortal Kombat 2 and Streets of Rage 2. I hadn't touched an RPG until just a few years ago when Kingdom Hearts came out (Disney, <3). So-called "romantic" games like FFVIII don't really interest me, I'd much rather be out fighting that uber-hard Dragon boss that every RPG has than sit and watch some sappy love scene.
Oddly enough, I loved Final Fantasy X-2. Great battle system, interesting and cool costumes, lots of secret items, and bosses that actually provided a challenge. Anyone who says it's a game intended for girls obviously missed the scene of Yuna giving Leblanc a massage. Oh, and the hot springs scene. And the Thief and Lady Luck dresspheres. And Yuna's buttcheek hanging out throughout the game.
| Sophita wrote: |
| I also think that Romance isn't really the key to attracting female gamers, though it can't hurt. I dunno about anyone else, but the game that really got me hooked on videogames was Mortal Kombat - because that was very fun to play with my friend after school. I liked the plot (hey, I was 7 - and it was cool back then) and it was about as unromantic as stories can get. |
XD Exactly what I'm talking about. Heck, my sister (who is so not a gamer) and her (female) friend were who got me started, then I got my best friends hooked. A good game is a good game, doesn't matter what gender you are, anyone can appreciate it.
| Sophita wrote: |
That said, I think some games have better luck courting female gamers than others. For example - I hate Dead or Alive. The entire game makes me uncomforable. I don't feel like I'm playing with female characters - I feel like I'm playing with blow up dolls. Everything in that game is to arouse a man's desire. What's the point in unlocking new outfits? They'll only be more fanservicey than the first. The gameplay is lackluster and I can get it better elsewhere - Tekken or VF for the fighting, Beach Spikers for the volleyball. I'm very uncomfortable with it, because I feel like the game doesn't want me there.
This, too, could be just me though - I know kagematsuri adores the DoA series, and she's far more of a fighting game connesuir than I.
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Why, thank you.
Dead or Alive, now that is a male fanservice game. I don't care what anyone says, it's fanservice, pure and simple. And yet I love the darn games, even Beach Volleyball. When I first started DOA2, it only took about five seconds for me to burst out laughing at all the boobs. About one minute into DOA volleyball my best friend and I were cracking up. We actually had more fun playing it than our guy friend (who bought it because his girlfriend wanted to play it). I honestly do find the games fun and, to be fair, there's a bit of female fanservice in there too. I so do not remember Hayabusa looking like that before! I think one of the reasons I tolerate the game is that it's all just so blatant. Team Ninja didn't even try to make any excuses, and I give them credit for that because you don't see it that often. But this isn't a thread about DOA, so I'll stop here.
| Sophita wrote: |
| Tekken or VF, on the other hand, don't give out that "boys club only" signal to me - in fact, both seem welcoming to females. The female characters are sketched out just as much as the men, and in Tekken, bless'em, for every zoomed in shot of a woman's breast, there's a shot of a man's built chest; fanservice isn't just limited to males. It is probably the only videogame series where one character has an ending with at least 2 characters are in a tight speedo style bathing suit...and neither one is a woman. :D |
Amen, sista. (And holy crap, Lee has the funniest ending evar.)
| Timbo wrote: |
| I was at Magfest one time... |
Holy zen, you were at Magfest?! I went last year and it was awesome...except when they kicked us off Guilty Gear so they could hook up Para Para...but nevermind that.
| Blackjack wrote: |
She beat you because Xianghua is cheaper than...Something really, really cheap.
Stupid Xianghua. How I hate her. |
I'm sorry, but no. I saw some of this SC2 tourney and watched this girl play. She is good.
| Benit149 wrote: |
| I don't have the same attitude with SNK and King of Fighters. I'm going to assume that Mai Shiranui made KoF popular, apart from a much stronger storyline compared to SF. I don't see what's so special about her, other than her outlandish outfit and her infactuation towards Andy Bogard, who has yet to return any genuine feelings to her. To me, Mai doesn't contribute to the female gaming populace despite being female, and this applies to any fanservice oriented girls there are, such as the DoA cast. |
I'm not positive, but didn't she and Andy get married and have a kid? I thought I heard that the ninja kid from Mark of the Wolves was their kid, but don't quote me on that.
| Arcana wrote: |
(However, PC games still have a bit geek reputation, even if the FPS crowd and the Halo crowd overlap, and MMOG's... don't even go there - that's major geek city).
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I mostly agree with that. PC games are still usually regarded as nerdier than console games for some odd reason. Halo however, is huge. Maybe not as many females are into it as, say, Dance Dance Revolution, but it's still so big that practically any and every gamer is familiar with it.
MMO's I'm kind of split on. On one hand you have the infamous Everquest fanboys who will give anyone they suspect is female IRL items/money/whatever. On the other hand you do have a decent amount of female players. I play FFXI and while males do outnumber females quite a bit, it's not odd for a female character to actually be female.
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St. Ajora
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| Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 10:41 pm Post subject: |
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Some things jumped out at me. And damn, why can't I have a best girl friend to joke around about games with?! I'm tired of stinky boys.
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| but it's okay because a.) she's a steretypical princess, and b.) the game was made in the early-mid 90s. Having Rinoa in constant trouble is not. It's 1998 and she can't even make a conscious decision without Squall's back up, never mind fighting. |
Hey why is it okay to not have Rinoa be a whiny, helpless female, just because it was 1998? Did female characters suddenly abandon hope of women's liberation or something? I hate Rinoa with a passion, but I realize it was her character, not something that should have been different due to a 199X date... |
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Arcana
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| Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 11:23 pm Post subject: |
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St. Ajora, I saw your sig.
HOW COULD I NEGLECT TO MENTION VALKYRIE PROFILE? If there's a game where the women totally kick all of the ass, it's in Valkyrie Profile. Lenneth. Freya. Mystina. Lorenta. Hrist. Aelia. Celia. THE GIRLS KICK ASS.
It's also amazing that pretty much every single girl in Valkyrie Profile is totally beautiful despite the fact that the game has very little actual fanservice in it. I think it's just that the game contains some of the most amazing hand-drawn art I've ever seen.
It's funny that two people mentioned Mortal Kombat and multiplayer as "exceptional games". That's another factor that deserves mention - games that are multiplayer receive much more attention and probably a much more diverse audience than games that aren't. I said most of this in the "Unpopular opinions about Games" thread, but multiplayer is truly one of the ways that you can draw in EVERYONE. Fighting games and FPSs as a result probably actually have a fair amount of female gamers. Unfortunately I've also heard that a lot of guys get offended in FPSs if they get pwnd by a girl.
But, if you play a game like Counterstrike, where one or two shots kill anyway, you honestly can't be THAT amazed.
Anyway, my point is that the multi-player game (except the MMOG) is the prime reason that games have suddenly become socially acceptable. The arcade was brought back home. The football jocks play racing games and 4-player soccer with their buds. Guys play fighting games in the arcade and at home. FPS guys host LAN parties. Even the girls play fighting games. :) With the at-home multiplayer games, gaming ceases to be something that "loners and losers" do on Friday night, and it ends up becoming another way of having a party. And, obviously, there's strength in numbers. The more people there are, the cooler it is.
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St. Ajora
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| Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 11:55 pm Post subject: |
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| HOW COULD I NEGLECT TO MENTION VALKYRIE PROFILE? If there's a game where the women totally kick all of the ass, it's in Valkyrie Profile. Lenneth. Freya. Mystina. Lorenta. Hrist. Aelia. Celia. THE GIRLS KICK ASS |
How could I forget as well :O Lenneth and Freya are just so badass and elegant. Very tragic, and strong characters. Without the clingyness. Simple, yet effective. |
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Starslasher
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| Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2005 12:08 am Post subject: |
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| kagematsuri wrote: |
I'm not positive, but didn't she and Andy get married and have a kid? I thought I heard that the ninja kid from Mark of the Wolves was their kid, but don't quote me on that.
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Oh, you mean Hokutoumaru. he's Mai's little brother, trained my Andy in the Shiranui Ninjutsu thingy. He's about 14 years old in Garou: MArk of the Wolves.
| benit149 wrote: |
| I'm going to assume that Mai Shiranui made KoF popular, apart from a much stronger storyline compared to SF. I don't see what's so special about her, other than her outlandish outfit and her infactuation towards Andy Bogard, who has yet to return any genuine feelings to her. To me, Mai doesn't contribute to the female gaming populace despite being female, and this applies to any fanservice oriented girls there are, such as the DoA cast. |
Well, i'm a fan of the KOF series. I thought that it was Iori who made KOF popular, with Terry, Ryo adn Mai following. You may be right that lots of people play Mai because of her ...*cough* assets, but i seriously like her moveset. She is fast, especially with her Super Desperation Move. She may look hot, but i do like her as a fighter as well.
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OptimisticPessimist
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| Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 11:37 am Post subject: Re: Girl Gamers: An informed Piece |
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Hi, Sir THI! Sorry for the very belated reply to your PM, but I've been kept so busy at work that I haven't the energy to work up a decent reply for this topic.
I've only got energy to reply to Sir THI today, but I'll get back to the others as soon as I am able.
I'm what you call (I think) a hardcore RPG gamer. That roughly means, I believe, that I tend to target RPGs 75% of the time.
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Qns: Did you play Final Fantasy VIII?
Answer: Yes. I'm still amazed at how I forced myself past the 2nd Disc just to realize that "Oh darn, this isn't going anywhere, is it?" and finally stopped. I'm still trying to decide whether I should throw myself off a cliff for that stupendous display of idiocy.
But then again, I've other games to live for, so... I never will.
Qns: What did you think of the love story involved?
Answer: Love story? Where? All I see is some whiny brat who consistently gets herself into trouble and an emotionless guy who makes the art of sarcasm look like some dried out joke. You're not kidding me that they're the ones the story is trying to put together? No? Fine, I only realized they were supposed to be in love after reading some site or another on the game.
Qns: Do you think Final Fantasy VIII was a success or failure?
Answer: Personally, a gigantic failure of titantic proportions. That's what you were asking right?
The artwork was fantastic for a game of it's time and I'm not ashamed to say that I did look for wallpapers (with those fantastic backgrounds as shown in the game) for my PC. Too bad the plotline didn't have that energy to keep up. Just the artwork alone wasn't enough to make me a fan of that game in the series.
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| Sir THI wrote: |
| I think that if there's one thing that increased female involvement in games (from the start to the finish of the process) would help improve these clichéd love stories, at least in Final Fantasy games. I think that S-E definitely took notice of all of these new fans...Final Fantasy IX was a love story, again better orchestrated than it was in VIII. Final Fantasy X and X2 are pure love stories. X is 'The Bodyguard' meets 'A Never Ending Story', and X2 comes around and wraps up all of the loose ends. I'm sure someone out there will try to pen X2's...fine I'll say it, overall crappyness on the healthy dose of Estrogen that S-E put into the game, and they aren't wrong. I'm all for taking games and gearing them towards female audiences, if you don't know that you haven't been reading my post, but I just think they tried to do this transition too fast. Really, the costumes, the Dress Sphere system and the love story, all this game needed, but then they ruin it with a far out premise and a concert that, though beautiful, was right out of place. If the game just had those three things instead of all of the other stuff that people feel didn't work as well, S-E could test opinions and see what and what not to put into their upcoming games. If anyone has numbers for FFX2 broken down by sex I'd love to see them. |
I don't think having females in the process persay will turn out better love stories. If you've read those extremely yucky, mushy and totally... Argh, there isn't a word suitable enough to describe the whole bunch of them romance stories (even one will show you the basic plotline that most romance novels are built on), you'll certainly agree with me that females on the team may worsen matters even more.
FFIX was a love story? Sorry, I actually bothered to go through the whole of FFIX not without a measure of trepidation after the idiocy of FFVIII and found that I liked some elements of that blasted game. To note, I preferred that the love story within the plot stays as a subplot and not take up most of the storyline in the game. I might be immune to the hints of love abound in the air then, but seriously, I felt that it was a lot better that way.
Actually, that was also part of the reason why I hated FFX and FFX-2. Gameplay-wise, they rock, I don't deny that. The artwork's great too. But the story leaves a sense of lacking... somehow. And I haven't the patience to go "Awwww..." at the couples.
To be short, I'm not exactly the type who has patience with excessive love storylines and useless cutscenes (as in Sir THI's example) during gameplay. Nice artwork, graphics and game-play or not, it's enough to throw me off some games (as above).
| Sir THI wrote: |
| Alright, now onto the female protagonists. Somewhere on that womengamers.com site is a review of all of the different female characters in the games they have played. The only character to get a perfect score is Lady Chris Lightfellow. |
I don't know who Chris Lightfellow is, besides the fact that she's one of the three protaganists that I happen to see during my 15 mins of gameplay tolerance of Suikoden III when I first tried it.
Btw, I only knew her surname when I happened to chance upon this site.
| Sir THI wrote: |
| If someone knows the exact URL to that, please post it (The ladies who run that site are using some foreign encryption...Can't...find...anything). |
Chris Lightfellow
As above, the url you requested. And no, I didn't keep it at hand. You boys (joking) just don't know how to look for it in a woman's way. Don't blame it on the women, blame it on yourselves! LOL
Chris, to me at least - after I read the article, appeared to be over-rated by that writer at least. I'm not about to play Suikoden III and kill myself looking at the graphics and at the damn controls (slow, slow, slow) to prove anyone wrong.
| Sir THI wrote: |
| I like the female protagonist in RPGs, they lend main characters a more vulnerable, likeable quality, and unlike the men their stats are less predictable, making leveling up actually fun. I don't have to tell you that my favorite female protagonists came from the same game, and their names are Celes and Terra. |
Female protaganists? To be truthful, I haven't played a lot of games with females as the star of the show. Well, not a lot that I recall and have liked as a female protaganist.
The few I have and liked immensely are...
1) Persona 2: Eternal Punishment - Maia
2) Fire Emblem (GBA) - Lyndis
3) Dynasty Warriors (:shock: Does this one count when you play as Yue Ying?)
4) Shadow Hearts - Alice Elliot and Margarete G. Zelle
5) Shadow Hearts: Covenant - Karin Koenig
6) Koudelka - Koudelka
Others? Not really.
What made playing them enjoyable? Well, to tell you the truth, their stats were easily predictable (for me anyway) and I already knew who was going to be what from their initial stats.
What made them enjoyable as a character would be their characerization, how they were portrayed by the game creators, how they behaved during the storyline and how they would react to certain situations.
I would say that, to a large extent, I was drawn to characters who were mature, even if they were young.
| Sir THI wrote: |
| But for the female protagonist to work, does the type of game have to be different? I don't really know about this one, but it's a thought. In the Final Fantasy games the themes are usually revenge, finding yourself, atonement and tragedy. In Final Fantasy III/VI, the themes are Good & Evil (much, much more so than any game in the series up until X), coming to terms with who you are going to become and death, lots and lots of death. I don't know if this was different to put the two female leads through trials so they can be measured up against 'The Boys' or just to give a different flavor to all of the monotony, but I do know one thing: FFVI/III is the best game in the series by far. Whether or not this is directly because of Celes and Terra or indirectly caused by the slightly more female perspective in the game I don't and will never know. Does anyone else notice that Chris Lightfellow combines alot of the traits of Celes and Terra? She's unsure of herself (like Terra), powerful/influential (Celes), Knows little of her past (again...Terra!) and finally, the grace that marks both of their characters. I haven't played the other three Suikoden games yet, but I'm sure alot of the females I hear about, Valeria, Nanami, Tengaar, Odessa and so on, owe alot of their development to Terra and Celes. |
I feel that for some female gamers at least (me mostly), they don't react to how the game measures up the girls against the boys, but how these girls are able to withstand the trials that would have crippled most of us females. To an extent, they are somewhat of a model for ourselves, what we aspire to be and yet fail (mostly) in reality but can yet live through on the game screen.
And for all male and female characters alike, mystery is something that adds allure to a character. So I wouldn't say for sure whether Chris does share the characteristics of the characters you have mentioned. I'm just asking you to keep in mind that the more sympathy/curiosity (for some gamers at least) one has for any character, the more drawn to that character one is.
And as for the girls in the Suikoden series as you have mentioned, I felt rather that they were built on sterotypes, rather than owing their development to those two characters you have mentioned before.
No offence, but that's just my opinion.
| Sir THI wrote: |
And the female characters in Fighting games aren't mentioned because they're just there to look at*, and aren't given any back story.
* - I challenge anyone to name a fighter from Soul Calibur, DoA and Tekken that isn't good looking, and not 'I don't think she's good looking because...', you can tell if someone looks good or not, even if you personally don't find them attractive. |
Does Dynasty Warriors 4 (DW4) count? I dislike all females except for Yue Ying. Too much make-up, too girlish and too immature are part of several reasons why I disliked the rest of the female cast in DW4.
| Sir THI wrote: |
| I could probably say the most about my last topic, but I really don't know what else to elaborate on about it than what I do, because both the term and the idea of Games for girls is becoming narrower and less defined (and this is a good thing). I know a few girl gamers, and the games they play can be called anything but girly. One I know is a die hard Soul Calibur II freak and is the only person that can beat me with Link (though I own her with Kilik). Another loves fast and frantic action games, like Devil may Cry and God of War. |
I'm a sad case really. Most of the adult females in Singapore do not like gaming at all and look upon it as childish. To be certain, while I have met some female gamers from my country online, most of them are loads younger than I am. :( So it isn't much fun here unless I go online (which i hardly do).
And that actually reminds me: Have any of you played GunBound online before? Free internet gaming and loads of fun. I once had this group where we would always play in a room we created (Boys VS Girls) and that would get plenty of guys in quick, thinking that we were easy kills. :P Yeah right, our record was actually a total of 51 wins (in a single day) before we actually lost to a pro team.
LOL. Sorry, don't mind me. Just reliving the days when I was still in that team...
| Sir THI wrote: |
| The only girl I know that plays lame games anymore is my sister, who loves lamefest efforts that are called 'Girly' be even girls like Yoshi's Story and Mario Party. I think she just does it to spite her because I tell her that if you ever meet a nice guy who loves games and then you say "I liek Yoshi's Story!" he'll laugh at her. Still waiting for that to happen, someday so I can laugh. |
LOL. Don't be mean. You'll never know.
| Sir THI wrote: |
| But seriously, really no games that can be said to be 'Entirely Geared toward Girls' anymore. You can make a case for any Dance Dance Revolution game and even those pocket pets, but then one day you may go to Japan and see everyone playing DDR and using pocket pets (I hate you...cyclical trends...). Therefore, you can pretty much denounce the phrase 'Meant for girls' when talking about games anymore, because it's a generalization. An example of this is when All of these Mary-Kate & Ashley Olsen games came out they were meant to be geared towards (young) girls, but I'm sure some guys picked them up, the twins just have that effect on people. Maybe it's a bad example, as I'm sure there are games with 'girly' elements to them that are better choices for me to name, but this post has gone on for a damn long time now and I think if I don't end it soon no one will read it. |
They should coin the phrase "meant for brats aged 6 and below" (since kids are growing up fast these days).
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As I said before, I will return to look over the other posts... Think I might have a few more things to add in.
See you guys soon!
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Starslasher
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| Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 10:36 pm Post subject: |
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Well, i personally liked Chris Lightfellow. As a personality and as a fighting character. She does break out of the stereotypical view on women fighters in RPGs. The male fighters are typically viewed as being more physical fighters, with more strength and defense. The female fighters in virtually all RPGs are magicians or speedster sort of fighters. Only a few are actually strength fighters. Chris's forte is with Defense, both physical and Magical. Her magic sucks, but her attack is great (given the Swing and Heavy Damage skills ^_^) and speed is good. I must have her when fighting the final boss.
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