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Shad
Midnight
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 Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 3:25 am Post subject: |
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Just my quick two cents - torture is a rather vaguely defined term that gets immediately demonized regardless of its intent in a situation. Physical torture, that is, causing someone bodily harm in order to extract information, violates a basic human right as far as I'm concerned. It's flat out wrong to the point where I don't think one needs even to bother providing an argument to support that.
Now 'torture' by means of discomfort is a different story. The cold/hot treatment isn't going to kill, scar, or internally injure anybody, nor is screaming at them. The use of water likewise isn't really that severe, so long as we're not talking a drastically prolongated method like Chinese Water Torture. I see no issues in applying these things. Furthermore 'psychological' torture, playing mind games to extract information, even via empty threats and such, doesn't seem like torture to me. There's an element of fair play in all of this, because any strong minded person can resist it entirely. With actual physically damaging torture on the other hand, whether you're a wimp or he-man the effects are still beyond your control. That to me is pretty wrong. |
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Rune hunter
Joined: 02 May 2006
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| Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 3:33 am Post subject: |
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| Do you actually have proof that these agencies and their people have gotten false information fromextreme interrogation which led to nothing? |
The opposite argument also holds water. Do you have proof that torture has been a reliable method for intelligence gathering? Didn't think so. The reliability of information derived from torture is also dobious at best.[anyone can lie to there own skins]
Also one other good argument against the use of torture is the fact that once torture is justified for one purpose, other purposes follow.
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| know I don't and I make it a point to always try to stay current on how the world affairs are reported beyond the general news outlets. If there's a flaw in their system then do you have something else which would work in the short-term when lives are on the line. |
You seem to be under the firm believe torture is the most effective method for intel gathering. Other countries[e.i. european countries] seems to be able to gather intel for counter terrorism purposes without using such method.[how much more likely will it be for other countries to justify using torture on americans when they see americans using such method]
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| I know you say working to have better intel sharing with all nations would be a solution but that doesn't mean much when there's chatter being intercepted talking of a terrorist plan to happen in the now and not the later. |
I'll humor you. Assume it does help in the short term. But what happens in the long run. Increased extremist activities, greater animosity towards the west plus add the fact other nations[nations hostile toward the west] can now justfiable claim torture for there own intel gathering. Win the battle lose the war eh.
Short term there are other ways to gather intel[im not an expert on the matter but im pretty certain about this] that does not involve torture.
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| You're saying Muslims are unable to differentiate between an terrorist extremist and a regular Muslim? That doesn't seem very fair to me. |
Deal with it. Our world isn't very fair. Especially considering were discussing about not "playing fair" and subverting the rules of law.
They only thing any decent human being can do is try to make the world better/fairer.
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capture your enemy spy. put him in a vibrating chair and feed them caviar and cake and give them fine wine and footrubs?
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Actual this method works. I remember watchin a news report on CNN where it was used during WW2 I think. |
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Hawk Thanatos
Radical Dreamers
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| Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 4:14 am Post subject: |
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| Rune hunter wrote: |
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| You're saying Muslims are unable to differentiate between an terrorist extremist and a regular Muslim? That doesn't seem very fair to me. |
Deal with it. Our world isn't very fair. Especially considering were discussing about not "playing fair" and subverting the rules of law.
They only thing any decent human being can do is try to make the world better/fairer. |
You've completely misunderstood what I was saying. When I said "fair" I wasn't talking about "playing fair" or whatever, I was saying that what you said seems rather prejudice (can't really think of a better word) towards Muslims. I was just trying to be nice about it. Personally I would have thought that Muslims have proven that they see a huge difference between themselves and extremist Muslims.
| Shad wrote: |
| Physical torture, that is, causing someone bodily harm in order to extract information, violates a basic human right as far as I'm concerned. It's flat out wrong to the point where I don't think one needs even to bother providing an argument to support that. |
For the majority of people I agree, but how about you provide an argument as to why someone who's been convicted of intending harm to an innocent person should have that same right. Especially when his torture could save lives. |
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Rune hunter
Joined: 02 May 2006
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| Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 6:55 am Post subject: |
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was saying that what you said seems rather prejudice (can't really think of a better word) towards Muslims. I was just trying to be nice about it. Personally I would have thought that Muslims have proven that they see a huge difference between themselves and extremist Muslims.
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I don't think I was being prejudice towards them[and considering i have talk to several muslims I have no intention of giving prejudiced statements].
I was however trying to say that muslims will not simply stand by and watch as the west tortures other muslims. They will likely be disgusted by such a barbaric act and it will only likely inflame the distrust and hatred muslims have towards the west.
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For the majority of people I agree, but how about you provide an argument as to why someone who's been convicted of intending harm to an innocent person should have that same right. Especially when his torture could save lives.
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Lets start with the fact that you might be antagonizing individuals who might have crucial information you would need to stop terrorist attack. You might end up alienating other muslims who might have vital information neccesary to stop terrorist attacks. |
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Hawk Thanatos
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| Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 7:10 am Post subject: |
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| The majority of Muslims don't distrust or hate the west and you saying it's a barbaric act doesn't prove your point. You say it's barbaric, I say it's not, as a result it's not much of an argument. |
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Oboro Tennosuke
Earhbound Spirits
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| Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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I Think it's...borderline acceptable. It should only be used in times of dire need, like war, of course. Regarding it being an effective means or not....I'd really like to hear what else comes to mind, in terms of tools dor extractiing information from people...
In the end, greater good>personal good. I know it might seem idealistic, but I'm convinced that not torturing a person that may very well have important information, useful for avoiding harm to many more....is simply foolish.
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I'm still a hungry peasant....and the Battle-Crazy Tensatsu Star of Harmonia!
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Kikito
Order of the Absolute
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| Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Shad wrote: |
Now 'torture' by means of discomfort is a different story. The cold/hot treatment isn't going to kill, scar, or internally injure anybody, nor is screaming at them. The use of water likewise isn't really that severe, so long as we're not talking a drastically prolongated method like Chinese Water Torture. I see no issues in applying these things. Furthermore 'psychological' torture, playing mind games to extract information, even via empty threats and such, doesn't seem like torture to me. There's an element of fair play in all of this, because any strong minded person can resist it entirely. With actual physically damaging torture on the other hand, whether you're a wimp or he-man the effects are still beyond your control. That to me is pretty wrong.
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Actually, Psychological torture would still violate a person's right's pretty severely. And how would you know that a strong-willed person can sustain psychological torture any more than a person with a strong body will be able to sustain physical torture?
Personally, I am completely against torture. I think that single human life has an infinite value, no matter who it belongs to. But that's just looking at it from the point of view of Deontology(goodness, I hope I didn't butcher up translating this from Spanish to English). If you look at it from a purely Utilitarian point of view, I can definitely see how it can be justified, since the good clearly outweighs the bad consequences. Still, I cannot bring myself to support the torture of a living human being. It's just not in my nature. |
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