Soul eater?

Beecham · Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 2:05 pm Post subject:

Hmm. Good point, there. Then, I also think the Rune of the Beginning is the One True Rune (tm), is such a thing could be said of any of them, a True Rune more potent in all spheres than any of the others. It's also, to my knowledge, the only True Rune that has never yet existed. I think it can only come together at the End of All Things (tm), whatever shape that end winds up taking. But I'm digressing heavily.

I do think an experienced Bearer could make his way out of the subtle manipulations of fate. Any Bearer sufficiently experienced is probably aware of and used to spotting all the Runes' effects on fate and probably find a way to counter it.

John Layfield · Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 2:18 pm Post subject:

Milan Fiori · Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 2:46 pm Post subject:

The only ones we know of who really have or had mastery over there True Rune was Windy and Leknaat, Joshua, Ted, Yuber, Sierra and maybe the former FC. And all have had it for quite sometime.

And isn't the whole series about fate really? Does it or doesn't it exsist? from what we've seen I don't think it does, I mean Riou and Jowy beat fate and so did Hero 4. So I refuse to believe that the Rune of Life and Death could manipulate the fate of people around the bearer. I think it just seems that way because when someone does die close to the bearer it takes their soul.
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John Layfield · Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 2:55 pm Post subject:

Fate is a pretty subjective term that lets itself in for misinterpritation so I really shouldn't have used it.

By fate, in this context, I meant the Rune of Life and Death manipulates events, maybe directly. That could be one aspect of its power, to drive people into a situation that satisfies its mandate, mainly the consumption of souls.

If, for example, the Rune of Life and Death manipulates a boulder to fall on the rune bearers friend and then absorbs his soul, it could be said, in a poetic sense, that the Rune of Life and Death 'twisted fate' when the truth is it merely manipulated what it could to fulfil its mandate.
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One day, I shall come back. Yes, we shall all come back. Until then, there must be no regrets, no tears, no anxieties. Just go forward in all your beliefs and prove to me that I am not mistaken in mine.

Beecham · Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 2:56 pm Post subject:

True to a degree. But say the Soul Eater targetted Geddoe, or hell, Leknaat. That'd be awholenother story altogether. Sierra and Hikusaak, too, fall under this category. The main characters tend to be -new- True Rune Bearers, but there do exist long standing veterans. The fourth Tenkai will also fall under this category by the time the series returns to the modern setting.

Milan Fiori · Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 3:18 pm Post subject:

I dunno, even with your explianation I don't think a true rune could do that. I just think lore around the rune and that it does in fact take the soul when someone dies has caused people think that it caused their death.
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Beecham · Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 4:55 pm Post subject:

Well, I've explained my side of the argument: why not tell us why you think the True Rune that governs both Life and Death -can't- cause someone's death in the fashion we've described?

Milan Fiori · Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 7:22 pm Post subject:

Well I'm looking at the way the four souls of Soukoden 1 died, and I don't see how the souleater would have affected it.

Odessa: Sanchez was the on who gave away the hideout position, Odessa was the one who rushed and saved the child. She stated herself she choose to be a woman instead of a leader.

Gremio: Windy was the one who gave the black rune to Milch, Milch was the one who threw the spore vial, and it was Gremio's love for Tir that made him sacrifice himself. Again I don't see how the Souleater could have affected that.

Teo: Teo's choice to fight his son to the death and serve the empire. Again no Souleater interference.

Ted: This one you could blame on the soul eater I suppose. If Windy didn't want it then she wouldn't of had Ted's body. But then again Ted commanded the Soul Eater to take his soul, it didn't just take it on it's own.

Unless you the souleater phsycally made them do these things which I don't believe it could, you can't say the souleater causes the death of the people closest to the bearer. And the arguement about if Tir didn't have the Souleater in the first place doesn't work because if Windy didn't want the rune none of it would if happen.
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John Layfield · Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 7:44 pm Post subject:

How did Odessa know there was a child there at all? She simply ran on ahead of everyone and there just happened to be a child there when the others caught up. What persuaded Odessa to risk herself so foolishly like that?

Why did Gremio choose to lock himself in the room with the spores? The claim is that the door can only be locked from that side, which is correct. For THAT door. There are dozens more doors along the back passages of Soniere that the party had access too. What presuaded Gremio to risk herself so foolishly like that?

Why did Teo McDohl choose NOT to follow up a resounding victory with the sacking and destruction of the Liberation Army? Why, when he finally chose to do so, was he turned back by a single fighter (Pahn). Why did Teo stay so loyal to the Empire above all other Great Generals, his bound with Barbarossa was no better or worse than the others. Why was the battle with Tir not a battle of beliefs but of anger and why did that suddenly vanish and his opinions flip-flopping as he died?

Ted is a special case as he specifically asked the Soul Eater to take his soul. Obviously this was a command and not a direct result of the curse.

The first three people made completely rash choices that were by no mean neccessary. Why would they do this? An out of universe explanation, of course, is simple: They did it so they would die and therefore have the plot make sense. But, would it have been so hard to have Odessa die in your party or simply leaving it AFTER she finds out there was a child in the hideout? Wouldn't it be more sensible if Gremio figured out that if they just all went down one flight of steps the spores wouldn't have reached them before they ate themselves? And sure it'd be great if they made Teo to be Super-Loyal to the Empire. But he wasn't, he flip-flopped constantly. From his uncertanty at the start to his staunch loyality to his full-fledged belief in his son.

All of those three behaved out of character just moments prior to their deaths. Out of universe that's bad writing. But in universe? Well, you don't need three guesses to take a stab at what my theory is.
_________________
One day, I shall come back. Yes, we shall all come back. Until then, there must be no regrets, no tears, no anxieties. Just go forward in all your beliefs and prove to me that I am not mistaken in mine.

Milan Fiori · Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 8:15 pm Post subject:

Odessa rushed down before everyone because she was worried about the Flik and the others. She was an emotional person and it wasn't out of character for her rush ahead because it was an emotional shock for her.

That door was a special sealed door, if you noticed all the guards on the other side of that normal door was eaten. Unless I'm completely off, they knew that. And it wasn't out of character for Gremio to sacrifice himself to save Tir.

As for Teo, niether of us can say what he was thinking when he let Pahn go, I could say it was because he was a compassionate general and because he just won a flawless victory and he didn't think the liberation army stood a chance he let them go for now. And again he had the closest relationship to the Emporer so it wasn't out of character for him not to join Tir, I mean Ain Gide didn't join either.
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Beecham · Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 8:43 pm Post subject:

I don't think it's that out of the question to suggest that the Rune had something to do with Pahn's initial betrayal, actually.

Patriarch · Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 8:50 pm Post subject:

the rune bearer of the souleater really just happens to be unlucky i really don't think it alters peoples personalities but it definitly seems to have some form of curse when it comes to killing those close to Tir though its strange that Odessa died she really wasen't close with Tir the only reasoning that she had died in the storyline doesn't seem to be "because of the curse" but rather to make Tir the leader of everything because come on Tir knew Odessa for about 5 days max. i don't think a strong friendship could have been formed with that little amount of time (also when did the game ever call it the life and death rune i don't remember)

Beecham · Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 9:11 pm Post subject:

No, but several Japanese sources apparently did. It's the "real" name of the Rune as best as any of us can tell; I'm sure SARSadmin could tell you better than I.

Regardless, what is luck? If he's "really unlucky," what does that mean, exactly? How about for people who don't believe in luck? What -creates- luck? It's coincidence after all. What creates luck in a story?

Anyone here ever read Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time? Great series. Anyway, if you have, you know the concept of ta'veren. They're characters who bend chance to their whim on a very unconscious level. Powerful ones bend chance so badly that weird things happen all around them. But usually, it's very small things that affect the ta'veren directly, or those around the ta'veren, be it positively or negatively. It's as much blessing as curse. I have -always- seen the True Runes as having the same effect on their bearers as though they were ta'veren.

So again, I ask, what is luck? What is fate, even? Sounds like questions that form the core of the series, if you ask me.

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