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Sniper_Zegai
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 Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 3:14 pm Post subject: |
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Deadly assasin you blow my mind with your crazy logic
But I love it. Everything you said makes sense. And I think if god exists, well that great. If he does'nt who gives a hell!
And Ajora is right as well. If I dont wanna join a religion I can tell christmas day ruining Jehovahs Witnesses to go to hell and sing a carol.
Yay for us
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Deadly Assassin
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| Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Sniper_Zegai wrote: |
| Deadly assasin you blow my mind with your crazy logic |
That's about the funniest thing I've ever heard said about me. Thank you very much. I'd like to think that my 'crazy logic' somehow reveals truth. :)
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St. Ajora
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| Posted: Tue May 22, 2007 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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Again, the importance with experiencing God is beyond the topic of religion. Everything you just described, Deadly Assassin, pertains to some religious people and those who are afraid to explore the root of their own beliefs for whatever reason (agnostics).
Heaven and Hell and morals are all creations of religion. Those that take their religion to a new, meaningful level (and constantly add to their beliefs and grow with them) or those who live outside of religion (those who are spiritual, or those who don't believe in a God or religious god at all) don't really recognize either of the three. Indeed, the very fact that you're referring to God as "He" also adds to the fact that all the beliefs you've presented have gotten us nowhere, and that millenia old beliefs are still being unchallenged today.
Off the record, what a fun topic! Very friendly. |
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Deadly Assassin
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| Posted: Tue May 22, 2007 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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| St. Ajora wrote: |
| Again, the importance with experiencing God is beyond the topic of religion. Everything you just described, Deadly Assassin, pertains to some religious people and those who are afraid to explore the root of their own beliefs for whatever reason (agnostics). |
I don't quite see how religion and God can be unrelated, since religion is the worshiping of God.
| St. Ajora wrote: |
| Heaven and Hell and morals are all creations of religion. Those that take their religion to a new, meaningful level (and constantly add to their beliefs and grow with them) or those who live outside of religion (those who are spiritual, or those who don't believe in a God or religious god at all) don't really recognize either of the three. |
I already said that Heaven and Hell are irrelevant, so I approve of disregarding them, but one should never disregard the third: Morality. As I said earlier, I think that spreading morality is the true purpose of religion. Of course, one doesn't have to be religious to experience morality, but you act as if morality is as much a vice in the religious system as the reward-punishment of Heaven and Hell. In reality, it is the greatest part.
Perhaps I am musunderstanding you, but that is what it seems like you are saying.
| St. Ajora wrote: |
Indeed, the very fact that you're referring to God as "He" also adds to the fact that all the beliefs you've presented have gotten us nowhere, and that millenia old beliefs are still being unchallenged today.
Off the record, what a fun topic! Very friendly. |
Do I really have to take the time to write "He/She/It" every time I use a pronoun referring to God? The very point of God is that He/She/It, if He/She/It exists at all, is beyond human understanding. So I doubt gender plays any role at all in the Allmighty, but to make it easier for everyone, God has been given the male gender. Sorry, females, but that's that. In the same vein as what I said earlier, God doesn't care. The gender that we give God does not affect God at all, it only affects people, and obviously it has offended you.
But if that is the best example you can come up with, then the morality of the Bible is pretty sound. Plus, people are the ones who interpret moral guidelines. Some people use religion to attack homosexual people and that goes against half of the other rules found in that same religion. In reality, it is people that are to blame if they do evil in the name of religion, not the religion itself. It is just like the Islamic faith. Its basic rules are identical to Christianity's, so if some of their members choose to act immorally, one should not blame Islam.
Yes, I am quite enjoying this topic.
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RedCydranth
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| Posted: Tue May 22, 2007 7:23 pm Post subject: |
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Quickly before I go to the topic of these so called sightings of Mary or Jesus, let me touch base on the pronoun thing. Jesus himself called God his father, which in turn gived God a male form. I beleive what Deadly Assassin has said is true though, that God doesn't give a flying phoenix what gender we assign him. In all actuality, if one were to think of God, he'd be genderless. Again using he because its the most commonly accepted pronoun.
Now to touch base on these fanatics who cry miracle when they see Mary in a sandwich or on their walls. Its just like that bearded guy said, These people will beleive they've seen something no matter how much evidence is stacked to the contrary. There was a lady in my home town who created a stir for a short time when she claimed she saw Mary in the bark of her tree. I looked at the tree and did not see crap. I even had people try and point it all out to me and I was still only seeing a piece of bark.
Another thing, why is it when these people see a vague female face they cry that its Mary. Why not Cleopatra? Joan of Arc? Sacajawea? These are all females too, couldn't the generic female face be any of them? Why is every bearded man Jesus? Couldn't it be a young Dusty Hill from ZZ Top? Just because you see hair and a beard doesn't mean this vision has to be Jesus. And those eyes in the door could just as easily be Satan's eyes watching you. But these people chose to believe its Jesus watching down on them.
People choose to see things as good over evil because if this woman truly beleived she was witnessing Satan's eyes and a hellish silhouette she'd be scared to live in that house. Its the same thing when its dark out and we see a mysterious shape in the dark, we initially assume it is something bad or evil. However One could just as easily assume its the shadow of an apostle or Joseph, but because we're in a more scared environment our mind tried to find something more scary.
What really did get me was in the second portion of that show with the child being exploited by her mother. That was complete bullshit and I really feel bad for the kid. If there is a heaven and hell, I wonder how the parents will be judged. I mean, I really do not think that Mary has been watching over the poor kid any more than she would look over you or I, if in fact she does exist. its quite presumptuous to think that God's servants would hand pick select people when it's sort of Jesus's thing to love all people regardless of their differences. Then it really got bad when he read of the order form. Thats something I view as reprehensible.
As for the shroud of Turin, I've been skeptical for that for a long time. I was raised by catholics who hold that sheet with high regard. However, it would be ridiculous that the sheet he was wrapped in still existed, and would contain such a detailed impression of his corpse. Penn said something smart about the Turin Shroud too. He said that even if the carbon dating was wrong and that it did come from the right era and they could somehow prove it covered a man named Jesus, this doesn't prove that God exists, just a man named Jesus once did.
The topic is do I believe in this sort of crap? No, not really. I do believe in God, heaven and that, but I don't require some design in my cat's litter box to make be believe. I have what is called faith. I belive in miracles, but none of those are miracles. Miracles are acts, not tangible items. Like being nailed by an ice cream truck going 30 and not breaking a single bone, thats a miracle. Or in my brother's case, being thrown through the back windshield of a car and only coming out of it with a minor scrape and a missing tooth, that's a miracle considering he was going fast and there was a lot of large shards of glass right by his jugular vein. However, A door with notholes that looks like eyes? That's far from miraculous. I know of a door at the hospital I go to where the grain of the door forms a huge question mark, does that mean God wants me to question my life? No, it just means that tree has some weird lines in it.
As for what Ajora and DA are discussing, thats not exactly on this topic. Whether hell or heaven exists and how one can tell if god does exist is all in the person. If you choose to believe, than you'll see god wherever you like. In the sun, a sandwich or even your own feces. I once had a bunch of poop that looked like a man's face, I could have said it was Jesus looking back up at me, saved it and made a shitload of money. Get it? Shitload? Okay anyhow, seiriously for a sec, that crap was nothing more than poop. It wasn't god telling me jesus is watching my ass or anything. Sorry, couldn't resist. Watching Penn do all those puns got me in that mood, sorry.
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Sniper_Zegai
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| Posted: Tue May 22, 2007 8:18 pm Post subject: |
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Wow. I think you just hit the nail on the head.
And the thing with the Coma patient who us clearly being used as a money making scam.
Well she can go f*** herself. I mean to actually make Penn speechless for a change takes a new kind of sicko and what shes doing to her child is so wrong I actually cant beleive somebody has'nt put a stop to it. For gods sake! Refrigerator magnets of your comatosed daughter.
We may not have proof god exists but if someone showed me this woman said Satan exists. Id be inclined to beleive them.
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St. Ajora
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| Posted: Tue May 22, 2007 8:27 pm Post subject: |
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| DA wrote: |
| I don't quite see how religion and God can be unrelated, since religion is the worshiping of God. |
Worshipping and believing in are two different things. There are millions of people who believe in God, but have nothing to do with religion. As I said earlier, there is a huge difference between spirituality and religion.
| DA wrote: |
I already said that Heaven and Hell are irrelevant, so I approve of disregarding them, but one should never disregard the third: Morality. As I said earlier, I think that spreading morality is the true purpose of religion. Of course, one doesn't have to be religious to experience morality, but you act as if morality is as much a vice in the religious system as the reward-punishment of Heaven and Hell. In reality, it is the greatest part.
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Morality changes as hypocritical society sees fit. What was once unacceptable is being viewed as normal and natural nowadays, and vice versa. It's all according to how evolved people are becoming in their thinking, thus, morality is a creation of humanity (which was my original point) and a staple of religion that fluctuates depending on who is teaching and at what time. But I guess this isn't the thread to get into that, but I just wanted to clarify what I meant by morality.
[quote="DA]"So I doubt gender plays any role at all in the Allmighty, but to make it easier for everyone, God has been given the male gender. Sorry, females, but that's that. In the same vein as what I said earlier, God doesn't care. The gender that we give God does not affect God at all, it only affects people, and obviously it has offended you.
[/quote]
And you're merely proving what I was trying to say- that you're conditioned in what you think of what God, and therefore what godly signs is/are. You're attaching a gender to an unseen entity and speaking of it in a religious context. Going back to my very first post, I was trying to offer another perspective and get the posters in this thread to see that perhaps they should try looking at the situation without religion equating into the matter.
Offended? Not at all, sir. Merely trying to offer another viewpoint, is all.
| DA wrote: |
In reality, it is people that are to blame if they do evil in the name of religion, not the religion itself. It is just like the Islamic faith. Its basic rules are identical to Christianity's, so if some of their members choose to act immorally, one should not blame Islam.
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Except that in many religions today that receive teachings from and follow one god or prophet who tells their followers to smite and destroy other humans. So, I wouldn't say it's not the religion itself, but yes, I do agree that the core of all religions is to love one another and prosper in peace., but that message is often forgotten or ignored. Most people choose to interpret their faith to give them means to harm others (restoring justice by causing injustice) and they are taught not to question their beliefs and to accept them through and through. Once more, repeating what I said and meant earlier, that we should all have room for interpretation and should be encouraged to evolve with our beliefs- whether we are religious, spiritual, or not believing in God at all- instead of accepting one singular truth (which was the attitude I observed in this thread and prompted me to reply to offer another outlook).
Whew. Hope that made sense. |
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kuwaizair
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| Posted: Tue May 22, 2007 9:31 pm Post subject: |
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gmm seeing how we still are talking about shapes.
clouds. that guy had a photo of "jesus's face on the sky" but what about all the countless clows, bunnies, unicorns and what not? or that "Dragon" sighted by china.
as for shapes in things, why not go back to giving validty to tea readings, or like myself, finding 'tea clouds", somtimes milk swirls and forms shapes. Once I saw a spade,would that have signficace? who knows.
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Deadly Assassin
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 12:41 am Post subject: DA's big post |
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| St. Ajora wrote: |
| Morality changes as hypocritical society sees fit. What was once unacceptable is being viewed as normal and natural nowadays, and vice versa. It's all according to how evolved people are becoming in their thinking, thus, morality is a creation of humanity (which was my original point) and a staple of religion that fluctuates depending on who is teaching and at what time. But I guess this isn't the thread to get into that, but I just wanted to clarify what I meant by morality. |
It is true that morality was invented by Man in order to use the wisdom of possible choices and their cosequences from the past to help the people of the future. Things that have negative affects on others have been deemed(sp?) bad and vice versa. Such simple points of morality are still as valid now as they were since the beginning of mankind. They are the simple instructions on how to get along with your fellow man. Yes, one would hope that as time progresses, things like democracy and morality will spread as people realize their positive benefits.
Plus, you're argument about what is "normal and natural" has very little to do with morality as it has to do with social demands. There is a big difference. Society may demand for someone to marry and have kids, but there is nothing immoral about not marrying and having kids. You see? Sometimes the two are mixed so bad that it is hard to tell which is which.
Some religious people claim that the Bible says gay people are evil, of course it doesn't. It is full of lessons about accepting people for who they are and "loving your neighbors." It would be good if social demands matched some morality (e.g. You shouldn't smoke weed because Jesus says its wrong), but religious texts can't speak for all time, since they were made in a specific time. That is why the founding fathers were wise in their desire to separate church and state. And that is also why the basic rules of moralty have not changed as society changes: It was wrong to kill, commit adultry, lie, steal, be rude, etc. in 526,489BC(random date) and it's wrong now.
| St. Ajora wrote: |
| Except that in many religions today that receive teachings from and follow one god or prophet who tells their followers to smite and destroy other humans. So, I wouldn't say it's not the religion itself, but yes, I do agree that the core of all religions is to love one another and prosper in peace., but that message is often forgotten or ignored. Most people choose to interpret their faith to give them means to harm others (restoring justice by causing injustice) and they are taught not to question their beliefs and to accept them through and through. |
This is an unfortunate truth, but once again, it is not the religion, it is humanity's hand in it. You can't say that the world would be a better place without religion, because you have no idea the weigh between the good and bad it's done (and neither do I). But I would say that it has probably done more good than bad. Most people in the world follow some religion, so there has to be some benefits to it, or it never would have caught on, eh?
| St. Ajora wrote: |
| Once more, repeating what I said and meant earlier, that we should all have room for interpretation and should be encouraged to evolve with our beliefs- whether we are religious, spiritual, or not believing in God at all- instead of accepting one singular truth (which was the attitude I observed in this thread and prompted me to reply to offer another outlook). |
Oh, I agree with that. I never mean to say that one should just shut off the possiblities of change and accept one thing. Thats why there is so much annoying trouble about the Bible. Just because it has some passages that say "the Bible is the truth," no doubt referring to the morals within it, people have to say, "Okay, so there was a great flood where all the animals were taken off in pairs and the world was destroyed and God made the world in seven days, etc, etc." People should never be closed minded, and that's why I say things like "If God really does exist." I mean, no one knows anything for sure, so there is no point in pretending that we do. We should just try to learn lessons from every thing we experience, be it religion, or a good book, or good lyrics to a song, or the sunshine, or even our own minds. If we don't think for ourselves, based on what we've seen, heard, read, and experienced, then we don't deserve free will.
| Sniper Zegai wrote: |
| We may not have proof god exists but if someone showed me this woman said Satan exists. Id be inclined to beleive them. |
I hate to be the grammar police here, but why is it that only I am capitalizing God? I mean, you capitalized Satan but not God? Even if you don't believe in him, it's still rude to not capitalize someone's name. I've met some atheists that intentionally write God as god in order to one-up the old guy. As a "haha, I don't believe in you so I'm showing you less respect than my dog, Sparky." Give the guy some credit, even if he doesn't exist, he has a whole planet of peope who can't wait to listen to him, think about him, and even fight about him.
Omnipotence! Gotta get me some'a that!
Sorry if I'm topic, but I think this topic is more interesting than the original signs of God one.
I can do that very quickly: No, there are no signs of God. What, do you think he has enough free time to magically carve some eyes into some wood or burn a portrait of Mary into some toast just so some people can start yelling about it and eventually profit as the world is forced to take a look at it. Does this kind of stuff really convert anyone anyway? What kind of idiot are you that says, "well, I've been an antheist all of my life, but the Mary on rye thing really opened my eyes!" I mean honestly. I see what St. Ajora is saying with the "the sunlight is a miracle to me," but honestly, the mere ability to conceive that we have the ability to conceive is a miralcle. Hell, everything is a damn miracle if you look at it that way. :P
How's that for a big ass response?
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Sniper_Zegai
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 5:08 am Post subject: |
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[quote="DA"I hate to be the grammar police here, but why is it that only I am capitalizing God? I mean, you capitalized Satan but not God? Even if you don't believe in him, it's still rude to not capitalize someone's name. I've met some atheists that intentionally write God as god in order to one-up the old guy. As a "haha, I don't believe in you so I'm showing you less respect than my dog, Sparky." Give the guy some credit, even if he doesn't exist, he has a whole planet of peope who can't wait to listen to him, think about him, and even fight about him.[/quote]
lol it never even crossed my mind. I was'nt thinking, I'll show that pesky god! I mean God. With the use of my cap lock! mwuahahahahahaha, mwuahahahahaha! :twisted:
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Fu Su Lu
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 5:13 am Post subject: |
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| Sniper_Zegai wrote: |
lol it never even crossed my mind. I was'nt thinking, I'll show that pesky god! I mean God. With the use of my cap lock! mwuahahahahahaha, mwuahahahahaha! :twisted: |
Isnt this a sign? You didnt write God with capital g but you did write Satan with capital S... and poor Sniper has gone insane! :*laugh*:
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St. Ajora
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 11:06 am Post subject: |
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| Moon Knight wrote: |
| As for what Ajora and DA are discussing, thats not exactly on this topic. Whether hell or heaven exists and how one can tell if god does exist is all in the person. If you choose to believe, than you'll see god wherever you like. In the sun, a sandwich or even your own feces. I once had a bunch of poop that looked like a man's face, I could have said it was Jesus looking back up at me, saved it and made a shitload of money. Get it? Shitload? |
I didn't see this the first time, but what a nice story. We branched out a little bit, but conversations do evolve, and I couldn't help myself.
| DA wrote: |
| Plus, you're argument about what is "normal and natural" has very little to do with morality as it has to do with social demands. There is a big difference. Society may demand for someone to marry and have kids, but there is nothing immoral about not marrying and having kids. You see? Sometimes the two are mixed so bad that it is hard to tell which is which |
Oh no, I didn't mean to say morality was bad, just the exact opposite. That morality is just a construction of man according to what he feels is necessary at the time (which is usually not necessary at all). I forget where I was going with it. I probably just wanted to make that point, that morality has too much importance placed upon it and doesn't get people anywhere.
| DA wrote: |
| It is full of lessons about accepting people for who they are and "loving your neighbors." |
It is also giving people excuses to kill those who aren't like them. I wish they'd make up their minds :P
| DA wrote: |
This is an unfortunate truth, but once again, it is not the religion, it is humanity's hand in it. You can't say that the world would be a better place without religion, because you have no idea the weigh between the good and bad it's done (and neither do I). But I would say that it has probably done more good than bad. Most people in the world follow some religion, so there has to be some benefits to it, or it never would have caught on, eh?
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This I don't believe. First of all, good and bad, also creations of mankind and totally subjective as to one's definition of good and bad. I wish I could point out that it has caused people to love one another, and to trascend to a newer understanding of love, life and led humankind to unity, but this isn't the case. Humanity has been separated since...well for a very, very long time. There is no unification, and instead everyone looks at each other believing that their way is the best way. I'm not saying that everyone who is religious is like this, but most are. You just have to open up a paper, or walk down the street or turn on the news to see that religion has been giving people excuses to harm, kill, and disassociate from one another with the belief that it's their way or the highway.
I'm not saying the world would be a better place without religion. I just believe that the current level of belief residing within religion- the kind that's being taught and not inspired- isn't helping anyone. Like I said, the evolution of belief and willingness to challenge other beliefs to inspire greater mindsets and actions within us all, is what will change things. Not the current way of thinking often prevailing in religion, which is based on a reward and punishment system.
| DA wrote: |
| I mean, no one knows anything for sure, so there is no point in pretending that we do. |
But there is no pretense amongst those who are comfortable with living in harmony and outside of society's constructions- that is the divine experience (call it God, if you will, or one of God's signs) they have found and do know of. |
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Deadly Assassin
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 11:38 pm Post subject: |
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| St. Ajora wrote: |
| I forget where I was going with it. I probably just wanted to make that point, that morality has too much importance placed upon it and doesn't get people anywhere. |
This makes me wants to respond like Fred from the Christmas Carol but replacing christmas with morality: "Though morality may not have put a single piece of gold or silver in my pocket, I believe it has done me good and will do me good and I say God bless it!"
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