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Sai Fujiwara
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 Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 11:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Sophita wrote: |
| Eh? Granted the Persians sustained heavy losses, but the Persians won that battle. 0.o |
Still. The Persians got their asses kicked. Take 300 men (who all died) and roughly 1000 allies (many of whom didn't make the final stand) and realize that they killed at least 20,000 by modern day estimates. Estimates vary from 20,000 - 80,000 Persian casualties.
What bothered me the most about the film were those RIDICULOUS monsters... Seriously that crap had no place in what was supposed to be an epic tale about something that really happened. The monsters were ridiculous, and if the Iranians are silly enough to think that's what we tried to make them look like, well... Alright, maybe they do have a small grounds for complaints, but even so... It's so far-fetched, that anyone with a lick of common sense knows that it's just plain silly.
Another thing is that they don't even call themselves "Persia" anymore. Ancient Persia was NOT an Islamic nation, so even IF the intent of the film was to villify their culture, this says NOTHING about what Persia / Iran has become since becoming an Islamic state, and essentially transforming its own culture. It seems to me that calling themselves "Iran" is a move to distance themselves from that ancient culture and history. Granted, it doesn't change the fact that Persians and Iranians are essentially one and the same. However, one fact that does stand out is that by changing their name in 1935 to "Iran," it seems to have since dis-associated anything to do with Persia / Ancient Persia and Iran in 2007.
The Iranian goverment will, of course, never acknowledge something like this, however it's still true since there are a lot of people who are clueless to the fact that Iran used to be called "Persia." I'd say they would have a very small grounds for complaints about how the film portrayed Persians. Small, mostly because of how far-fetched it was. However, by changing their name to Iran, I think it throws what small grounds they had to complain right out the window.
If they were that insulted, why not prove it by changing their name back to Persia?
The answer? As many of you pointed out already: They just want attention.
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Yohn
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| Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 12:45 am Post subject: |
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Pssht... that's so lame. ~__~
I'm looking forward to seeing it anyway, just because I enjoy a good war movie every now and then. :3
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Thor McOdin
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| Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 1:09 am Post subject: |
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I would agree with Iran...if Rambo was the main character. As it stands, there did seem to be some subtle nationalism, but nothing worthy of condemnation. In other news, this movie made me bench press a car.
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Amyral
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| Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 1:42 am Post subject: |
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| Sai Fujiwara wrote: |
| What bothered me the most about the film were those RIDICULOUS monsters... Seriously that crap had no place in what was supposed to be an epic tale about something that really happened. |
I don't really see why that's such a problem. The movie is told through the Spartan's point of view, so of course it's going to be embellished. Everything from the start of the movie indicated that it was going to be that way. Add that embellishment to it being by Frank Miller, who treats everything like it's hopped up on steroids, and you get the final product. I mean, really, Frank Miller probably can't even spell the word "realistic". It was never meant to be purely historically accurate, it was meant to be how a Spartan might have told the story had he survived the battle. As the saying goes, never let the facts get in the way of a good story, or something like that.
However, back to topic at hand, the movie makes them look bad, so I can, more or less, understand why they would come out against it. It's something they would be expected to do based on how they were portrayed. For the most part, I agree with your sentiments. |
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Shrew
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| Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 12:31 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, I think you're missing the point if you believe Iran's basis for complaint is in the fact that it's a story about a western nation beating up a Middle Eastern nation (specifically Persia). That's history, you can't argue with it.
I think their complaint is more that the heroes are portrayed as uber-buff white western superheroes, while the villains are literally subhuman. Sociologists usually talk about the "Other" as that thing you create to identify your own group, exaggerating differences of others into something unrecognizable (see Blackface and other depictions of blacks). Granted, I still haven't seen the film, but from the trailer and Sai's comments, it seems the otherness here has been pushed up to the max.
Of course, I don't think it's necessarily the filmmakers' fault, more Frank Miller's. The man... isn't exactly the most sensitive and thoughtful guy when it comes to other cultures.
I've heard the film described as a "Spartan Fever Dream", where it's being told to rally up the troops. So basically it is propaganda, just contained within the film. But I'm not sure if throwing in a frame plot erases the damage. In fact, it sort of seems reflexive; like here's some propaganda being told to you through propaganda. Of course, it's not America > Iran propaganda, more like Western Civilization > Middle Eastern Civilization.
In short, yes, Iran is annoying and is out for attention, but I don't think their complaint is completely unfounded.
Here's an interesting article and discussion on this.
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Yvl
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| Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 1:34 pm Post subject: |
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What? I friggin loved the Immortals. Yes they had a monster along side them, but aside from that I didnt see too much wrong with it.
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Sai Fujiwara
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| Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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Did you happen to notice what what an Immortal looked like when a Spartan knocked its mask off...?
Yep... It looked like a space alien. Tell me that isn't lame? :P
It's little crap like that that sort of gives rise to this debate. Even though the tale is told by a Spartan survivor, it's rather clear how "pure" the Spartans appear, and how "monster-like" many (although not all) of the Persians appear. Still, like I said, most people won't even realize that Iran and Persia are alike, so with Iran complaining about it, the majority of people will probably think to themselves, "What are they complaining about?"
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Ujitsuna
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| Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Immortals were mearly highly skilled warriors hand picked by the emperor, why the heck they look like space aliens I have no idea. :shock: |
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Sailor Sexy
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| Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 3:25 pm Post subject: |
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Well, as has been stated before, it's a movie about a Spartan who is telling the story to fire up the armies. He describes the Immortals as these horrid beasts because it makes it a better story to say the king and his men fought off these horrid creatures than just saying they fought off these regular humans. It's not historically accurate because all tales get embellished to make them seem more exciting. Personally I think the real history is just as good, but that's not the point. Point is all the action you see isn't supposed to be happening as you see it, had had already occurred some time back and One Eyed Willy was just recounting it for the masses with his improvements in place.
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| Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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Again, the film is a stylized retelling of the battle through the eyes of one of the hardcore Spartans. Dilios was called by Leonidas as one his best men, but also one of it's best storytellers. Go back in history and most stories were retold through oral traditions. Traditions which embellished the truth to make the story snap and crackle and pop.
Did Homer's Iliad actually involve Gods and Goddesses taking sides between the Aegeans and the Trojans? We look at these embellishments and think it's stupid or unnecessary, but for people around that time it probably wasn't. Miller tried to emulate type of storytelling. Whether it was the truth or not. Even whether it made the opposing people seem monstrous and evil that's how that particular story might've been told during that time. If the Immortals were made to look like monsters nehind their masks that's probably how the Greeks thought they were after being told by Persian messengers how unbeatable and unstoppable the 10,000 Immortals who followed Xerxes.
I understand why Iran would take offense and that's their right, but when people start breaking down and deconstructing it to find hidden meanings it gets a bit much. Just to get it out of the way, Frank Miller strongly believes in "might makes right" philosophy which is why he's drawn to violent stories and especially warrior-type codes of behavior. He saw the story of the 300 as something that typified the ultimate in sacrifice and the warrior ideal. He did the same with the story for Ronin which dealt with themes and a look at the samurai warrior code. He's as blunt in that story as he was in 300.
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| Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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I can understand why the Iranian’s don’t like this. Islamic/Arabic countries are never fond of works of fiction portraying bad aspects of their history (accurately or not) and to be honest I don’t think any country does is just that they tend to be more vocal…
Also the scale and success of the movie must have something to do with Iran paying attention since is getting very popular right now and watched by millions of people all over the world…
Also the media paid extra attention to Iran did they paid that much attention when the Greek’s got upset for the homosexuality/bisexuality of Alexander in the recent movie adaptation (some groups asked for banning but it didn’t happen I think)?
As for this having a vain of Propaganda in it…
Well it’s a historical battle spiced up with monsters and other supernatural stuff for reaching a modern audience. I wonder how successful the movie would have been if it was more historically accurate and without the big boos (or the novel for that matter)…
Also would anybody talk of propaganda if the current state of the world wasn’t the one it is today and the movie got released?
Besides if some American gets psych up after some Ancient Greek killing an Ancient Iranian/Persian they need some cultural “assistance”…
Because let’s face it today is not the “Western Civilization” vs the “Middle Eastern” but America vs Iran…
Oh and please mark spoilers in this thread some people (like me) haven’t seen the movie yet…
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LordKratos
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| Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 9:10 pm Post subject: |
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Iran is trying to get attention and make there crazy selves stand out even more then they do now, they need to quit being a babies its about the 300 spartans fighting off a giant army of persians... Just get over it who cares if the persians were originally based out of Iran.
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Timbo
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| Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 11:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Yvl wrote: |
| I just saw the movie, and I really can't see how anyone could get upset over this. If its as historically accurate as it seems to be, then nobody has a right to complain... but then the Iranian president isn't exactly known for his prowess in history. |
The movie isn't historically accurate when it comes to Spartan life style. The only thing it gets right is that there was a battle and there were 300 Spartans and the Spartans beat a lot of Persians. The number of Persians wasn't close to a million, estimates very between 100,000 and 500,000 and the estimated deaths were around 20,000. The Thespians were there, but there were about 6,000 Greeks. The Thespians stayed till the last day and were killed, while many of the other Greeks fled.
I actually think Iran is right about this film, mainly because I left after seeing the movie thinking it had themes of the Iraq war. There were 300 strong soldiers fighting for freedom against Persians, who were from Iraq and Iran, saying things like "Freedom isn't free", calling Xerxes and Persians illogical and full of mysticism or fighting a war the rest of the world says is impossible so that they can secure freedom.
Not to mention that the way they portray the Spartans. The Spartans were historically not a very compassionate place, were incredibly restrictive (They wouldn't let people with new ideas come in because they thought it would disrupt the society, if you were born misshapen you were killed and if you were a boy you were taken away from your family at age seven and trained as a soldier for the rest of your life. You were considered part of the state, not part of a family. Gold and Silver were not used because they were seen as overly extravagant, Sparta used a clay currency) or that is was more customary in the time to be sexually attracted to men (which was also one of their military strategies. Have the men fall in love, so that if one dies, the survivor will fight harder). None of this was portrayed and they showed Spartans 'warriors of freedom' fighting for thier families and their wives against an evil empire.
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 12:06 am Post subject: |
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Iranians are a bit stubborn when it comes to hearing bad things about their history trust me.
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| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 9:43 am Post subject: |
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| Sailor Sexy wrote: |
| I think that Iran is trying to get attention, and they seem to be succeeding to an extent. |
You might be right to an extent, but I am almost certain that the Iranians are genuinely offended by the film. Writing this reaction off as just a ploy to manipulate public opinion in whatever way is just too simple. I am of Persian descent, and as such know a fair number of Iranians. And let me tell you that they are the most nationalistic and proud people you are ever likely to meet, and that they will interpret any perceived slight against either their country or any other Middle Eastern Muslim nation as the handiwork of The International Cabal of Wealthy, Conspiratorial, Zionist Jews Who Control Hollywood, the American Media, and Both American Political Parties (and don't forget Tony Blair).
I have not seen the movie 300, but one thing I do know is that it fits perfectly into this paranoid mindset most Iranians seem to share. What we have here is a film that portrays one of the most ignominious failures of the Persian army in all of history; the battle was a victory, sure, but a very, very hollow one. Worse, the Persian troops are portrayed as horrible, subhuman villains, and the Spartans are "the defenders of freedom." I don't know if the movie was intended by its makers as a political message. I doubt it, but it's entirely tangential to the point I'm trying to make. What I'm talking about is not what the film actually was, but how the Iranians perceived it and why they took it that way.
If you'll go to the user reviews pages on Yahoo.com for 300 and sort them to make the lowest reviews come up first, you'll see what I'm talking about. Most of the lowest reviews are from Iranians who think this film is blatant anti-Persian propaganda, and some of them explicitly blame "the Zionists" for this "outrage." Iranians have a strong propensity for feeling persecuted.
| Sai Fujiwara wrote: |
| Ancient Persia was NOT an Islamic nation, so even IF the intent of the film was to villify their culture, this says NOTHING about what Persia / Iran has become since becoming an Islamic state, and essentially transforming its own culture. It seems to me that calling themselves "Iran" is a move to distance themselves from that ancient culture and history. |
Really, Iranians are still quite proud of their pre-Islamic past. The empire of Cyrus the Great is seen as a high point in the history of the nation; Persians are tickled pink at having once conquered most of the known world. Zoroastrians (the few remaining ones) and Muslims get along okay in modern Iran. I don't know what the official position of the Iranian theocratic government is on Persia before Islam came around, but one thing is for sure: The average people on the street do not see the ancient Persian Empire as a foreign culture. It is still distinctly a part of their heritage and national character. Iran is often seen as a nation defined by its rigidly Islamic, theocratic form of government. This is true, but it does not go far enough. Iran is also one of the most nationalistic countries in the world, which contributes to much of its "anti-imperialist" rhetoric. |
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