Scientology [As a financial and even criminal enterprise]

[Vextor]

I am quite uneasy to declare that any belief can be declared as a "religion." There is indeed a field of "religious studies" which delves into the nature of religion from various perspectives. It sounds quite too brash to discount centuries of discouse on the subject of the "nature or religion" in favor of an "anthing goes" argument.

There are many different ideas when it comes to, "what is a religion?"

The most common perspective is the anthropological / sociological perspective that religion functions to supplement secular morality which may otherwise not be adhered to, especially by providing actual external social structures (such as churches). From this perspective, religion would be difficult to separate from culture, and often times older religions are closely integrated with the culture of persons who live in that area.

The other interpretation is a simpler one -- that "religious awareness is centered on 'awe,' which is a blend of fear and facsination before the divine" (very famous idea by the scholar Rudolph Otto from his book 'Das Heilige'). In this case, a religion will require a "religious expeirence" at its core to define itself, and a method to convey these experiences in ways that can be fathomed and passed on.

Because there are religions out there that lack moral codes and / or churches, the "anthropological" model seems to only provide explanation for certain types of religions. However, in that case won't scientology's various claims be considered a "blend of fear and fascination"? Unfortunately, even courts in more progressive nations such as Switzerland have denined "religious status" to Scientology.

The problem is Scientology attempts to say that their "religious practicies" is science (such as "Auditing"), and when they try to spread in nations that have strong religious identities, they will deny that they are a religion.

And lastly, Ron Hubbard states himself that Scientology isn't a religion:

"Scientology has opened the gates to a better world. It is not a
psycho-therapy nor a religion. It is a body of knowledge which,
when properly used, gives freedom and truth to the individual."

-- L. Ron Hubbard, "The Creation of Human Ability"
Los Angeles: A.S.H.O., 1971, page 251

(This was later removed from later editions circa 1974)

[Urn]

I have no argument against this and I have certainly said that each person has a right to discuss their prolems with Scientology. I simply don't agree with it getting any special attention due to one's very own personal bias. It is as if Scientolgoy is being glorified, and people are in awe of the atrocities they are accused to and actually have committed. If you would like to investigate it for criminal behavior, then do so, but I believe it is simply bias dissent that makes the public argue that Scientology's activities are unique and deserve special attention. It uses intimidation, true, but this is certainly not unique for a religious practice. It uses litigation to quell dissentors, true, but this is certainly not unique. It is a money making entity, true, but this certainly does not make it unique.

Do you honestly think that if Scientology was not so popular people would be as vocal as they are against it? Do you honestly think that if so many celebrity weren't subscribing to this religion, that it would make the topic of discussion?

So, no, I am not simply stating that you can't address the issues with Scientology without addressing every other religion, I am stating that don't point the finger at one fledgling religion without inspecting the foundation of other religions and seeing how, in fact, the practices of those religions may have contributed to the practices of Scientology and how they carry out their methods. Don't simply look at the ills of Scientology without looking at the history of religion first and then discussing the problems and realizing that it is not so unique.

So, if another religion has avoided scandal, then there is no need to compare it to Scientology and there is no need to bring them up. I simply despise trying to make this joke of a religion, which I believe many of you would agree that it is, a huge problem when the fact of the matter is that the reason why it is thriving is because of critics. They draw people to Scientology and that is precisely why it continues to thrive. Discuss it, but don't make it seem like you are talking about something unique. That right there is the basis behind my argument.

[Vextor]

Well, when you get into the "history of religion," that is also a completely different argument. In these cases, religion would have clearly mixed with political institutions, which is not part of an all-inclusive definition of what religion is. Most of the time, "religious atrocities" are actually triggered by other political reasons, and dogma is typically used as mere excuse. Basically, the definition of religion can exist without history, and to say the two must be connected would be a very narrow perspective.

[Urn]

I don't believe I implied that religion and history were necessarily intertwined. Acutally, I perceive religion as pre-dating history. I stated that other religions have, in the past (which is what I meant by history), resorted to similar methods as Scientology and that possibly, possibly, Scientology was influenced by the methods of those religions. I stated, and believe, that it is reckless to assume that Scientology is unique and should be perceived as such.

The topic of religion existing with or without history was never revealed in my statements I do believe and I will clarify that that was not my intention to do so. So, I totally agree with your previous post, but my statement was not revolving around such an issue.

[Sniper_Zegai]

Then are you saying that religion even religions that are acting suspicousally or even illegally just becuase some people may beleive in that said religion and they could be offended by questioning that said churchs actions is not a good reason to just leave them be.

People can and will beleive in all sorta and we can both agree that will never change and I dont want it too.

Im not telling people what they SHOULD beleive. Im questioning the people who are in charge of those religions and making sure they keep their actions within the limits of the law and scientology is an example of how religion can be used to keep the activities of that said religion a secret.

Religion is a big business and people will always try and exploit something that can be profitable and to protect society against people who would do this we have to keep an eye on the people in charge not the everyone who wants to join a church.

Im not saying that the beleivers are the ones responsible and that they should be restricted from practicing their beleifs but this is'nt a thread about belief its more about people who are fraudulant in nature from using a religion to commit criminal activities and scientology is just a recent incarnation of this. Catholosism and other religions are not innocent from illegal activities and thats why I think religion should be monitored more carefully becuase it can effect people in a negative way.
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[Vextor]

In that case, it is also arguable that because religions in modern times have abandoned these practices (such as torture) which may have possibly influenced Scientology, they also should. If an argument is based on historical precident, one can say, "because religion A used method B during it's early stages, religion B should also be able to use that method during its early stages." However, that is clearly absurd, because we live in different times. For that reason, Scientology will have to be judged based on the common morality of the times (and every religion is judged in that way).

Also, it is debatable whether the Church of Scientology has the "huge" following that they claim. Census data consistently shows that there can't be "millions" of members world-wide, when less than 2000 people claim to be Scientologists in the UK, am donly 50000 in the USA. The church claims to be the "fastest growing religion in the world," but provides no data.

Finally, in regards to whether the "spoon religion" can gain official religion status, this will again depend on the laws. It will probably be very hard to be approved if your religion actively uses illegal methods to proselytize or use intimindation to keep members from straying. In the case of Scientology, there's typically illegal actions that will make it hard for them to claim status as acceptable.

[Urn]

[Sniper_Zegai]

Im just adding another link to topic be sure to check it out guys.

here it is http://scientomogy.com/

Its a Tom Cruise parody website but they do have information about scientology that is less than a comedy including information and articles from "Rolling Stones" magazine and news stories involving scientology and its members.

You can also find the legendary South Park episode here and even the Boston Legal is there too.

So check it out it makes me laugh like hell.
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[Vextor]

[quote="Urn']
Until facts can be used in support of either position, then all arguments can be deemed purely speculative.[/quote]

National census tends to be fact based on statistical methods and audited by third parties, while Scientology provides no backing for their data. If you acually think I am lying, I can provide you with all the census data from various countries in the world. They don't add up to Scientology's claim of "millions"... not even one million.

[Urn]

[Amyral]

[Sniper_Zegai]

Just to add to Vextors membership post.

The CoS had claimed to have over 10 million members world wide. However a survey condected in 2002-03 proved that the church had only 100,000-500,000 members. Its stuff like this that originally peaked my interest.

And other Illegal activities that HAVE BEEN PROVEN are on these links.

I picked out my 2 personal favourites.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Snow_White

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Freakout

These actions alone along with many others over the 50 year period scientology has been around is a little more than suspicous.

And by the way you can find the film "The Bridge" here parts of this film actually feature scientology introduction and recriutment videos, these videos will be shown in color to let the viewer know.

http://www.scientomogy.com/the_bridge.php

Which was completly banned days after its public release. The maker of this film Brett Hannover had no comment and cut off all connection to the film after the CoS was done sueing him.

Another one to scientology I guess....

And for Amryal. I agree that the CoS would have died out long ago if celebrities did'nt endorse it. Celebrities live a life style that most of us can only dream about. Everything is bigger, better and more expensive and scientology has provided celebrities with a way to be above the rest, even in a feild as sensitive as religion.
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[Camus the Noble]

[Scott]

I can't really comment much on all these BIG posts, because I simply do not know enough about their (CoS') actions...

Well. I personally feel that Scientology is complete load of bull. It goes as far as contradicting most mainstream religious views, accepted science, attacks it's own members, stealing from the Government, changing their own beliefs as they see fit... They honestly do come off as a cult. Haven't a few countries actually deemed them to dangerous cults?

The lengths that they go to just to silence people who disagree with them is simply Disgusting. Kidnapping, threats, slander, hiding the truth, set ups...It's really quiet unnerving if you ask me.

I read up at one point about them more or less excommunicating members of their own church for standing up for the church beliefs. A few were kicked out for saying their teachings have changed too much from what L. Ron Hubbard originally had them believing. That alone is pretty darn bad if you ask me...
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To relive those Halcyon days of youth

[Sniper_Zegai]

In response to Camus. Yes I was refering to the Church of England.

In response to Scott. A few countries do not regard Scientology as a religion. Italy recently had a Superior Court hearing about whether Scientology was a religion or not. They ruled in Scientology's favor but it was recognised that this was a technicality and this status may be subject to review.

Germany as well does'nt regard Scientology as a religion and regards it as a financial entity and refuses to give the tax-exempt status we are all so familiar with.