Scientology [As a financial and even criminal enterprise]

[Urn]

Who are we to determine what a "legitimate" religion is? That is the point I am trying to make. There are plenty of native religions that use drugs to induce a more conformative state which was perceived as an enlightened or spiritual experience. Opium was used for just that purpose in many native american religious practices. So, the fact that they may be hypnotizing these people is sad, but a moot point.

The fact of the matter is that these people were drawn to the practice of Scientology. And let's not forget the Crusades. Catholics personally persecuted those who did not follow their believes on a spear and a cross. Catholics have been silencing dissentors for years. But, we never hear of it being questioned as to whether it was a legitimate religion. One could argue that every religion tries to brainwash their individual followers. To suggest that scientology is unique in this fact is not a compelling argument.

Simply because they keep their methods a secret does not make it any less legitimate. Again, not long ago, people were persecuted for the different version of the Bible they read. Secrets could be argued as the one last mystique a religion has to offer. Simply because the books of what we could call traditional religions are open to the public, does not mean all people are privy to the teachings.
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~ Humbly walk the path of death

KOOLUK SUPPORTS TINTO MINERS

[Sniper_Zegai]

Good Point Urn and Im not trying to say that I'm the sort of person that has the right to say "this is OK, thats OK" but scientology is'nt just a religion with a wacky set of beleifs. The CoS has alot to gain from this being a religion as opposed to a franchise or an enterprise due to tax exempt status that religions get.

As I said in an earlier post the theological teachings of scientology is something that I dont care about, but the secretive nature of scientology and the copywright laws they turn to oh so often (now Im not saying for definite) may be used to stamp out critisism as opposed to protect their teachings.

And for brainwashing. Yes alot if not all religions try and recruit people in various ways but only scientology has proven to use a technique that is directly linked with a form of direct control that can and has been proved to give an unhealthy amount of control to the person running the session. R.L.Hubbard was an accomplished hypnotist and he personally developed the technique known as "auditing" and hypnosis experts around the world reveiwed auditing and it was almost an 100% agreement that auditing was a form of authorative hypnosis. The reason that we cant prove they are using this to "brainwash" or influence people is becuase auditing that is conducted by real scientologists is not monitored and is a well kept secret. This is what I mean by "to allow their activities to go completly un-monitored is foolish indeed"
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[Scarlet Assassin]

Glad to see someone else is taking this up. I've been doing my best to get info on Scientology for the past three years. I've seen countless documentaries about the people that oppose it disappearing in the middle of the night, having their lives ruined, and just being harassed. The sad part is, the "members" of this church are victims. if you see them on video they repeat the same phrases over and over again, they've been resocialized to LIVE Scientology and live ONLY Scientology.
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Chief of Beat-em-up Honeys Division, Devoted Protector of Lady Tifa Lockhart

[Fu Su Lu]

I dislike Scientology with all my heart. But the only thing that separates it of being a religion is that Scientology is contemporary. If that cult makes it for some hundred of years, I dont think anyone questions if it is a religion.

Bye the way, Ronald Hubard wrote Battlefield Earth, books I surprisingly found entertaining as a lover a science fiction.

Any religion or system of ideas that tell you how you have to think and that way of thinking includes discrimination of people is... sorrry to say but its garbage. If it even includes paying money to progress like Scientology... :roll: :*laugh*:
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Who lights a candle casts a shadow.
Uncle Weirdo is on hoilidays... by now

[Sniper_Zegai]

Much harm has been done in the name of religion and scientology is just a little more direct about it.

You have to wonder in the end what the real motivation behind scientology is. What made Hubbard come up with this ridiculous genesis theory. Who knows. But what I do know is that the insane amount of revenue scientology is gaining from un-proven techniques and treatments that are simply endorsed by a couple of celebrity faces is something that has and will continue to ruin lives. And as long as scientology is around I think people should always question its motivations and actions and this applies to all other religions as well.

I mean for gods sake they convinced one guy to go off anti-seizure medication and he had a seizure and died. Did they really beleive they were helping or was it just to prove a point.

One way or another the actions of the CoS is something that should not go un-challenged.
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[Ley]

Just in case anyone took my last statement seriously, here is my official opinion. Scientologists exist to make the world laugh. They are the clowns of society, and just like clowns, should be pitied like the sad people they are. Anyone who believes that our complex range of emotions are in fact caused by the souls of aliens long since stripped from their mortal bodies, and thereupon attaching to the fledgeling human race, and that all of our past is in fact a fabrication created by a great Emperor, in a brain washing facility remarkably like our own cinemas, who were shipped there in great space ships which look, remarkably enough, like DC8's, is obviously so far gone along the scale of social darwinism, that they should be left outside for the squirrels to pick on.

That's my official viewpoint.
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Can anyone tell I'm bored?

[Sniper_Zegai]

beautifully put Ley.

Yeah its kinda funny how the scientologists depict all the stuff from their gensis theory that did'nt even exist a couple of hundred years ago nevermind a million.

What idiots.
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[SwissStopwatch]

Well. Yeah, like a lot of people I do have a bit of a problem with Scientology. It's not so much the belief system that worries me, not on the surface. I don't particularly care if they believe the stuff about Xenu and the Galactic Confederacy. That's harmlessly wacky, or at least seems to be. Yes, it does sound exactly like the plot of a bad sci-fi movie, but it's not the only utterly ridiculous thing I've heard to do with spirituality.

Now, when we get to the other things, like the extortion, blackmail, the fact that you have to buy status within the religion... um, yeah, now it's starting to seem like a harmful cult. Now add the various forms of propaganda used, and we do start to get a picture of a "religion" that exists entirely to make money. And the legal action and other forms of pressure against people who even dare to criticize them don't exactly work in favor of their image. Rather, it reinforces the "harmful" aspect of things. Now, add the goofy theories about "engrams" and whatever other pseudomedical stuff they want to talk about. Put as bluntly as I can manage it... harmful cult. Beliefs are one thing, but apparently they don't just stop at preaching beliefs.

You might say that other religions take action against dissenters. Certainly, this is true on some level, but here it's particularly bad, and particularly organized. It seems to be a primary purpose of Scientology, which it isn't for other established religions, at least not at this point in time.

A couple things I can say. First one isn't personal experience, but someone I know claims to have gone to a scientologist center and asked about the religion. They were all too happy to show him a video, which had a bunch of (flawed from a statistician's viewpoint) data about how you get rich joining Scientology. Sounds believable (that they'd say this, not that joining scientology makes you rich... it makes them rich, apparently), considering the other stuff. Next up is what I actually know and have seen. My dad works as a public school teacher. One Christmas, he brought something from the school mail room. Apparently, various Scientology materials come in the mail periodically, with instructions to distribute them to the students. Clearly, the school staff was not about to hand this stuff out to the class, but they did let the teachers have it; any way they could get rid of it was fine. He showed it to us, and it was pretty much explaining their basic tenets. It was kind of goofy, but what strikes me is that that they were sending it to schools and expecting them to distribute it... I might still have it around somewhere, but I'm not sure.

The below link puts a humorous spin on this. Considering that the source is The Onion, it's satire as opposed to a real news story (which I'm sure you'd all pick up on), but it does get the point across rather nicely.

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/31006

[Urn]

My question, then, is what is the argument here? Are we saying because the basis for their beliefs is stupid, therefore they should not be a religion? Are we arguing because the CoS has a lot to gain financially from this belief that it does not have the right to exist?

[Fu Su Lu]

[Failure_Urn]

I just think L.Ron Hubbard was just looking for attention. If you look at his bio alot of the things he has done just screamed "look at me i am important." Like how he faked having a degree in nuclear physics.

But to be fair i dont know everything about this scientology, but its not what i choose to believe, by a long shot.
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[Camus the Noble]

[Urn]

That is the point I make. Criticize it, throw darts at it, laugh like hell at it (I know I do), but to say it shouldn't exist just seems like a bit of a stretch to me. We constantly scrutinize religion, but to give this particular belief special scrutiny for how absurd it appears to be, seems like an unnecessary burden on society.
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~ Humbly walk the path of death

KOOLUK SUPPORTS TINTO MINERS

[Sniper_Zegai]

LOL. Camus it was that very episode that made me want to look up scientology. And when I read that the beleifs they had were true I was surprised. But I did'nt really care. It was the financial aspect of scientology that got my attention.

And for Urn. I agree. I 100% agree. Religion is responsible for millions of deaths around the world and has been a very negative force on this earth. However the time when Catholics burnt witchs and Christians were slughtered by uttering the name, is long over and as the famous saying goes:

"Those who forget the past are condemned to repeat it"

Just because most if not all religions have done horrible thing before and even today does'nt mean that religions like scientology should get a free pass. All religion has come under harsh scrutony especially from other religions. But I did'nt start this thread to say "look at how stupid scientology is" I started this thread to highlight that scientology is ruining people lives. People in need are turning to them for help with mental health issues, drug and alchohol addictions and even councel in times of desperate need. And with absolutly no evidence to support their claims they are saying hand over your money and we'll make thing better. Forget all that propoganda you hear about psychology, medicine and all that other stuff that has helped millions.

There is serious financial gain for scientology being a religion. Hell what they save on tax alone from being a certified religion would make a person wet their pants if they were presented with it. And people have to start asking questions. Where is all this money going homeless shelter? Drug and Alchohol rehabilatation centres, homes for the needy, third world country charities, shelters for abused children?

Or maybe just maybe there is a new mansion being biult for a level 7 thetan out there while his cronies post panflets to schools. Who knows and thats the problem. If scientology has something to offer this world, what is it? becuase from what Ive heard so far it has done nothing but extort money and destroy lives. And the answers are out there if enough people ask the questions.

I know I seem like a total nut. But I'm not here to tell you that the beleifs of ANY religion should be ignored no matter how insane it may seem to you or I but the purposes and intentions of these religions need to be monitored carefully because the power of belief can give the hopeless hope, can give power to the weak and can even offer life to the dead. And that is what makes it so dangerous.
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[Urn]

Nobody said it should get a free pass. I am just curious as to why scientology is taking all this heat for exploiting their believers when all other religions could be accused of the very same. I am not saying we should give it a free pass at all, I am just saying that people should not be pointing fingers at Scientology, a fledgling belief, without saying hey, look, Catholicism has doing almost exactly the same thing for years. It just seems a little absurd to me. Of course, everyone is free to criticize, but it just seems a little hypocritical to point a finger at Scientology as being the big bad wolf and they aren't grossing half of what Catholicism or many of the more established religions are grossing a year do to the "dues" of their members.

Of course, you will hear more bad than good if that is what the media and the general public is looking for. If the Scientology belief has become so popular, then there is more than just hypnotism causing it to prosper.
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~ Humbly walk the path of death

KOOLUK SUPPORTS TINTO MINERS