Suikoden Urgent and Irrational Kibbutz Oblique Xperience

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Falena's military power(spoilers)

 
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Blazing Camp

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 10:31 pm    Post subject: Falena's military power(spoilers) Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I saw a similar thread on Suikosource and was wondering you you all thought on Falena's military here.

As we saw in SuikoV, there were many military factions. The Godwin soilders, Barows soilders, DragonHorse cavalry, etc. Now I forgot how many soilders were noted in being in the Falenan civil war, but it seems like with all the soilders combined in Falena, they seem to have I'd say at least 100,000 in the army.

Also Falena has the Sun Rune which destroyed a civilization that existed before Falena was found. I doubt it would be used again since the bearer loses his or her sanity.

So my question is this, if Falena(after the game) has a more unified government, would the militiary also be stronger and unified? And would Falena stand a chance against countries such as New Armes or a superpower like Harmonia?
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Falena seems like a very strong nation. With combat being a culturally supported aspect of government(Sacred Games, Gladiatorial fights, an existing healthy military) I'd expect them to have a strong military by comparison. Falena is also a flourishing region with many thriving towns and cities with not a lack for people from which to encourage military service. Basically "High Population = Lots of Soldiers".

Just to clarify, I thought the Sun Rune only made the bearer go bonkers if they didn't have both the Dawn and Twilight Runes. If they did, they were perfectly fine.

I think Falena could easily form a strong military on level with the City States, Grasslands and possibly Harmonia, depnding on how the data extrapolates with Falena's growth. And with such a strong bond with the Island Nations, they could do well if they wanted to go conquest somewhere, say Armes for example. Especially with Armes not having a cohesive union. O well, guess we'll have to wait for an Armes game.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 4:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I don't see Falena as having quite that strong of an army. If you recall, most of the Godwin faction's garrisons were made up almost entirely of raw conscripts, which means that the numbers were inflated massively, and on top of that, a volunteer army like the ones in the Grasslands will always be superior to a conscripted army.

Likewise, Harmonia would have a similar edge in that the military is the only way for many to advance their social standing, whereas in Falena it is a far more profitable endeavor to go in the business of being a merchant or skilled laborer (like, say, a guy who makes boats). You'll notice that the gladiators who fight in Falena are all slaves, after all. If combat was truly such a prestigious occupation outside of top-profile positions like personal guards for Gizel Godwin or being a Queen's Knight, you would have professional gladiators and not slaves.

I would equate them more with the City-State of Jowston. The only troops that do anything but die in S5 are the Cavalry, the Queen's Knights, and the very best of the gladiators and noble guards, which sounds about comparable to Jowston, whose only impressive troops were the Two River Kobolds (because Ridley is a badass) and the Matilda Knights.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:

I think Falena could easily form a strong military on level with the City States, Grassland and possibly Harmonia, depnding on how the data extrapolates with Falena's growth.

Falena isn't even close to Harmonia. Harmonia has several true runes while Falena has one, and each of Harmonia's regiments are about as powerful as the entirety of Falena. Besides, they have lost many skilled leaders in the civil war.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 6:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Leaving out True Runes for the moment (because I hate Runes and also because only the Fire Bringer ever bothered to use an offensive True Rune in full force on the field of battle), the Queendom of Falena have a decent if unspectacular military.

You have to remember, the idea of Falena being some sort of ubernation is entirely fanon from back in the days of Suikoden II. Here's the truth of the situation, Falena's two neighbours, the Nagarea Theocracy and the New Armes Kingdom, pushed Falena to it's limits in the past. Even further back, Falena was unable to subjugate the Dragon Horse peoples of the Sauronix area.

By the time of Suikoden V, however, Falena is said to be in a position where it would have a much easier time dealing with New Armes. Really, without an idea of how strong New Armes is, it's hard to make much of a guess at the strength of the Falenan military compared to other nations.

However New Armes certainly don't appear to be up to snuff in terms of military prowess so it's nothing to be overly impressed at.

Really, Falena seems to be comparable, military wise, to most nations, such as Toran, Dunan and the like.

Would Falena be able to repel a New Armes invasion or annex the country if they really wanted to? Yeah, but it'd be a mess. Would they defeat Harmonia, if such a war was possible (considering the distance)? Not really. I'm sure they could repel individual attacks, a la the Higheast Rebellion, but if we're talking full-scale, one nation must die, warfare, then Falena will have the short end of the stick.
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Ujitsuna

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 7:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

No nation we know of can match Harmonia, thats the point, they are the guys to look out for, Harmonia is the country others offer tribute to just to keep their land. The only one that may pose a risk is the nation Albert Silverberg was working for when he sabotaged Harmonian ranks and thus instigating the Second Fire Bringer War.
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Rezard




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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Although Hirussak is probably the strongest character in Suikoden, Harmonia doesn't seem to be so strong anymore; they lost lots of territory and seem to have problems maintaining what is left.

In my opinion the strongest military power is Toran, in Toran we have elite archer (elves), heavy cavalry (only in toran), aerial units (probably the strongest in the world), artillery (the dwarf's cannons, only toran seems to have artillery in the world), along with high population and they have good strategists.

When Falena fought New Armes... weren't they losing until Lucretia helped? So I think New Armes is stronger than Falena, considering how fighting in Falena must be hard on the attackers who are not used to fighting in a country full of rivers.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 4:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Rezard wrote:

When Falena fought New Armes... weren't they losing until Lucretia helped?


They had support from the Barows', so it was easy for them to enter Falena rather unattacked. Without the nation broken in factions Falena would have been earlier able to defeat New Armes, I believe.
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redxa3

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2007 7:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

But didn't it like happen before when New Armes also invded Falena? Like wasn't Falena more united than it is now? It had better leaders, better men and better tacticians yet New Armes was still able to invade them and almost defeat them. So even if the factions were somewhat as united as they were back then, Falena wouls still have a hard time fighting off New Armes troops as they had lost a lot of their experienced men in the past, Falena even lost Lucrecia in a sense. So Falena would definetely have had a hard time fighting New Armes off. I mean Falena is weaker than it was before so even if they had united factions andeven if the Barows didn't help New Armes, if New Armes attacked Falena, they would have definetely a hard time countering that invasion, anyway that's what I believe
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2007 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

redxa3 wrote:
But didn't it like happen before when New Armes also invded Falena? Like wasn't Falena more united than it is now? It had better leaders, better men and better tacticians yet New Armes was still able to invade them and almost defeat them. So even if the factions were somewhat as united as they were back then, Falena wouls still have a hard time fighting off New Armes troops as they had lost a lot of their experienced men in the past, Falena even lost Lucrecia in a sense. So Falena would definetely have had a hard time fighting New Armes off. I mean Falena is weaker than it was before so even if they had united factions andeven if the Barows didn't help New Armes, if New Armes attacked Falena, they would have definetely a hard time countering that invasion, anyway that's what I believe


Again though, there was a struggle between factions for the throne, and New Armes took advantage of this, but were finally beaten back by the commander of Falena, Ferid and the Queen, Arshtat.

New Armes only strikes when Falena is weak.
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redxa3

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2007 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Yes, New Armes only strikes Falena when its at its weakest point but if New Armes were to have attacked Falena when they lost Ferid and Arstaht then Falena may have been defeated, I mean if New Armes were to have capitalized on Falena and if they sent their whole force when Falena just lost Ferid and Arstaht then Falena would be defeated. Well its good that New Armes only sent 2 factions of their army but if they would have sent all of their forces, then Falena can easily be defeated. I mean if New Armes capitalized on the fact that Falena was in dissaray, Falena lost a lot of its men and its best leaders, and the fact that falena's 3 factions were figthing each other and if New Armes were to just invade Falena, Falena would certainly have lost a lot.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2007 8:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

New Armes is also a divided country, they only invaded when the Godwins and Barows tempted them with support and profits from invasion. The King of New Armes was against invading Falena, so that always made it harder for Maha Sparna to mobilise the country's forces and people to back the war. It failed miserably and they cut off her head, happy days.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2007 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Yup got me there Maha's death was great but it's off topic if I discuss that anyway's so then I guess if we look at things Falena and New Armes may have the same military capabilty then, New Armes seems to have more men but Falena seems to have better leaders, I guess
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2007 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I wouldn't even go so far as saying that. I think that New Armes and Falena are likely roughly equal in power, with perhaps Falena holding a slight advantage. The situations that we've seen described in the game really seem to point to this from my point of few.

First off, we have the invasion of Falena by New Armes the few years before the game started. Yes this did happen at a time when Falena was experiencing a political, if not military, civil war. Such a circumstance would weaken the morale and unity of the country, but this does not show that New Armes necessarily has a weaker military. On the contrary, I would say that this shows that New Armes at least has a well established tactical intelligence network within Falena. They knew that there were troubles that were plaguing Falena and they moved quickly to take advantage of it. This also shows a certain amount of unity on the side of New Armes. If they were able to set aside their tribal differences and mobilise when the opportunity for them to strike was right, it shows that they can at least band together at times of opportunity for the nation as a whole, not just individual tribes.

Furthermore, New Armes fared incredibly well in the war, many things considered. Territorily, Falena is absolutely huge. If I recall correctly, New Armes was able to conquer a good deal of western Falena. We have references to much of the Barrows territory suffering in the war and that was mostly in western Falena. Logistically this would be very difficult for New Armes since it would make their supply lines much longer. However, their military was at least up to the challenge of taking over almost half of the geographically second largest nation that we've seen in the series. That would seem to me to show that they are no slouches militarily.

When New Armes invaded in the Falenan Civil War, I think that it shows them as being opportunistic again, striking when the enemy was weakened. However, things had changed in the political realm of New Armes at this point. The Sparna clan was still very pro war, however, other clans were taking a more moderate approach. This approach wasn't because their military was weaker necessarily, but more because they knew that if the Prince's faction of the civil war won it would likely lead to increased prosperity for both New Armes and Falena. The Valya clan recognised this I believe and that is likely why they did not commit their troops to the war. Furthermore, this is not an officially sanctioned mission by the king, I don't believe. If it was I expect that all of the tribes of New Armes would have been involved.

Furthermore, the Valya tribe not committing their troops to the war shows a certain amount of military prudence as well as their intelligence capabilities again. The Valya clan knew of the Island Nations fleet that was headed towards Estrise. Though the Obel Maritime council criticized Skald Egan for this since it could have led to war with New Armes, this would have meant from the New Armes perspective that they would be fighting a war on two fronts, significantly weakening their strength on both. If the troops in Falena were defeated their might be a counter strike into their territory over land, and if their naval forces were defeated the Island Nations might make landfall. Not getting involved as a nation but instead only as individual tribes without the backing of state sanction was a wise move in many ways.

All of this seems to me to point more to the strength of New Armes political and military thinkers. As it stands now, I would say again that Falena and New Armes' military strength is likely equal, with New Armes perhaps having a slight edge. The Falenan civil war pitted all of Falena's regular personal against each other and then much more as the Godwins were conscripting massively. I'd say that Falena's military will have a long time to rebuild. However, if New Armes did try to invade as a nation, they would likely be hard pressed as there would be many volunteers to beat them back, and many with fighting experience from the civil war.
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