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Gay marriage in Massachusetts
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Vextor




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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2004 7:41 pm    Post subject: Gay marriage in Massachusetts Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

After a flurry of gay marriages happening in San Francisco, Oregon, and Noew York, and banned later on, it seemed like the whole "gay marriage" steam has gone by. However, gay marriage has been approved in Massachusetts, and now many homosexual couples are getting married in Boston and elsewhere in Mass.

This is a wonderful thing, as it signifies freedom in the USA, and separation of religious dogma from the government. May this trend spread to other parts of the country, very soon.

Of course, people will disagree. However, disagreeing with someone doesn't mean you have the right to stop them. The USA has to come to grips with the fact that the nation is based on respect for each other's freedom.
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Sophita

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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2004 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I agree that it's wonderful Massachusetts has allowed gay marriage. I think people should be free to marry whoever they want so long as both members are old enough to realize what they're getting into.

Am I the only person who doesn't get the controversy surrounding gay marriages?
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Leb

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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2004 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Things will most likely get ugly in the coming months, since conservatives and religious organizations are going to take this to the Supreme Court.
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adrich




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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2004 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I never understood the religious side of the issue. We had freedom of religion in this country last time I checked.
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leena fighter




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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2004 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

There are a lot of things about the argument that I don't understand. I've been paraphrasing some unnamed source (I can't for the life of me remember who said it first) for a few months now.

If your beef with gay marriage is because its "ruining the sanctity of marriage," and it is forbidden in the bible, then we've been condemned for hundreds of years. If you're going to preach that, then adultery is just as terrible a crime. If you truly believe that gay marriages go against what the bible says marriages should be, then you should also wish to stop things like divorce, since that too destroys the sanctity you want to protect so badly.

I butchered that. Sorry.
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Vextor




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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2004 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I think that's a pretty good argument myself, leena fighter.
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Lucied




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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2004 12:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

My favorite comic on the issue of homosexuality:

http://www.ozyandmillie.org/2003/om20031009.html

I love the author of Ozy And Millie ^_^

Anyway, I don't see the big deal, either. This country was founded upon the ideal that "All men are created equal." In fact, that's even in our Declaration Of Independance. So why, then, throughout US history, people have been discriminated?
People of different races were held as lesser than the rest. Even the entire female population was thought of as less than that of a male. But, each new generation has founded a brand new wave of equality, bringing us closer to total and equal rights to every single human in our country.

People fought, some even to the death, when the US tried to abolish slavery. They fought even more when the US tried to end segragation. They fought when it came to give equal rights to women. And they're fighting now when it comes to equal rights for homosexuals.

Granted, different races are still discriminated upon, even by law enforcement. And there is still sexism. There will be hatred for many generations to come. But eventually, this twisted country (compared to all others) will see the light. Or be conquered by a "better" and more liked country. ("Better" is such a touchy word, I think. It all depends on what you define as "better.")

My point is, there has been tons of resistence about equality before. No one seems to realize that we're all human beings, and we all have the capacity to love each other. People just don't understand the concept of "Love thy neighbor," which is also in the Bible, amazingly.
People who judge by race and/or gender need to realize we're all human beings. We just look different.
People who use religion to attack need to realize that God loves us all. We are all God's children. And Jesus died so all our sins can be forgiven. Even if those sins are living in a homosexual relationship.
(Note that I'm not religious. I just use it as an example.)

I think I've ranted enough.
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Maximillian

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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2004 1:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Lucied wrote:
My favorite comic on the issue of homosexuality:

http://www.ozyandmillie.org/2003/om20031009.html

I love the author of Ozy And Millie ^_^


Yeah, I hate it when people quote Leviticus as an arguement against gay rights. I mean, have you ever read Leviticus? It says just about everything is an abomination, cutting your hair, shaving, wearing "garments composed of two types of stuff", touching a woman during her period, eating shellfish, eating swine, seeing your mother naked, damn near everything is an "abomination" or "unclean". There are so many arbitrary rules that nobody follows in Leviticus, like if you have a field of crops(it can't have two types of crops, for that is an abomination) you can't eat any of the crops for the first three years, and on the fourth year you must sacrifice it all to God, it is not until the fifth year that you may eat of your crops. I'm sure all the farmers who spout on about Leviticus at anti-gay rights rallies abide by this rule...
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Vextor




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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2004 1:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Man, this has got to be the most intelligent thread I've read about the "gay marriage" issue so far. *tears of joy*
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Galt

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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2004 7:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I'm really happy that Gay marriage is finally legal in Massachusettes, hopefuly that wont change and more or all states will do the same thing. *is gay*

SARSadmin wrote:
Man, this has got to be the most intelligent thread I've read about the "gay marriage" issue so far. *tears of joy*


*throws confetti*


Last edited by Galt on Wed May 19, 2004 4:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Saben

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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2004 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I am a member of a few gay support group type sites, so I have seen other intelligent conversations going on around about this issue. What I would like to see is someone who OPPOSES gay marriage in this topic but who is able to present their case in an intelligent and logical fashion.

One argument I have heard that actually kind of made sense and was intelligently presented (even though it wasn't directly opposing gay marriage) was that in a democratic country, democracy needs to rule. If we legalise gay marriage against the wishes of the majority, then why don't we legalise acts that other minority groups see as 'right' such as paedophilia, necrophilia and bestiality. Oh and why not legalise plural marriage at the same time? In the beliefs of certain minorities these practicises are not harmful nor at all problematic, just like how in the few of some people (I'm not sure whether it is a minority of a majority, actually) homosexuality is not problematic. I believe in 'absolute truth' personally, but if you do not believe in such a thing, then society defines ethics and 'right' and 'wrong', so really the majority DOES decide and SHOULD decide what is acceptable and what is not. Using that argument gay marriage should only be legalised if the majority considers it right.

Of course, I believe the above argument is codswallop, I was just presenting a potential alternate, but intelligent argument in the hope that if there are other people that can disagree with gay marriage intelligently they will not feel discouraged about posting so we can get some interesting dialogue going.

Being gay of course I support gay marriage, internationally, it is in my best interests and the interests of many close friends to. To me marriage is just a legal name for certain benefits. If every church in America, Australia and Japan were to refuse me and my future husband from having a marriage ceremony, that is their perogative and choice I will not force my beliefs on a religion, it is the nature of organised religion to define 'right' and 'wrong' (usually). But if you are trying to tell me I cannot visit my dying lover in hospital when the patient next to him is allowed to have his wife and children by his side, then you can go (to put it politely) screw yourself. All I want is a piece of paper and equal civil rights, then with luck I might find a church and/ or minister open minded enough to perform the ceremony, too.
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leena fighter




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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2004 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

^ too long to quote it all, so I'll just point.

You're right, I really would like to hear an intelligent, rational view against gay marriage. It's a pretty hot topic, so its hard to find people willing to explain it calmly. But the argument you presented is interesting, I haven't heard it before.

I think the best response is that gay marriage is just ... well, marriage. If two people love each other enough to get married, why should anyone stop them? Divorce rates are at mind boggling high, shouldn't we simply advocate good relationships? Who cares who?s in them? Of course, a 60 year old man and some child's relationship can't be considered the same thing. While it could be argued, a child like that has no real ability to decide what they want. So saying that pedophilia is simply love as well doesn't work. Or at least not in my world.
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sybillious

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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2004 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:

If your beef with gay marriage is because its "ruining the sanctity of marriage," and it is forbidden in the bible, then we've been condemned for hundreds of years. If you're going to preach that, then adultery is just as terrible a crime. If you truly believe that gay marriages go against what the bible says marriages should be, then you should also wish to stop things like divorce, since that too destroys the sanctity you want to protect so badly.


they're being selective about what's detrimental to marriage, rather than attacking all things harmful; if they're so against actions that supposedly weaken the sanctity of marriage, then why are they not protesting in places where quickie marriages and quickie divorces for the said quickie marriages are held *like las vegas*? it seems they refuse to attack things that truly make a joke out of something sacrosanct, but choose to attack this simply because it goes against personal/religious mores.

marriage is a civil matter, not a religious one; the church and its people need to present more than just biblical quotes and bs arguments about how any children raised in 'x type of household' will be harmed. it's their hypocritical bias that angers me the most; rather than think for themselves, they become sheep, follow the 'flock' and do what the few tell them, rather than look at this from a rational point of view and come to their own *informed* opinions.

these are the same people who can't answer one simple question:

if homosexuality is wrong, then why did god make people gay in the first place? if they weren't intended to be so, then why does it exist and what precisely is so wrong about it, other than it offends you?

no one can seem to present a logical, non-religious based argument against this; until someone does, i see no real basis for an 'against' stance. they can't fix the problems within their own house; they need to stay out of that which truly doesn't concern them.

what happens between consenting adults is no one's business, pure and simple.
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tekknopirate




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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2004 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I'm not for the whole thing. I'm about to be straight truthful no offense to any thing the only time I don't care about two people of the same sex together is when it's two perfect body females together. Someone like jenna and another female I'm all in but when it's two over weight women I just think it's digusting and I start thinking it's just wrong. When I see the men they have squeeky voices and act like women basically. It make's no sense. The men is just disturbing I wonder what are they thinking what's wrong with them. But now I don't care what there story is I'm not about to even think about why they turned out like that. So basically If your not a perfect body female and only do lesbianic things for fun it's wrong. But when you start getting all deep with it and want to get married I start to thinking something is wrong with them. :shock:
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iscalio




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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2004 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

My sympathy to the Nameless Lands.
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