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Rainrir
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 Posted: Mon May 08, 2006 3:31 am Post subject: |
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I am trying to see the rationel behind NOT making Boz, Craig, Mueller/Wiehelm, Shula and the Lelcar trio usable in normal combat. Maybe just maybe because these guys are so-called heavy weight leaders of their people/army and cannot be risked by making them join the Prince in his adventuring.
Boz is the lord of Estrise, Craig is the Commander of the Feitas Dragon Cavalry, Mueller and Wiehelm are unit commanders of Lindwurm (the rest of the brigades are off elsewhere), Shula is the commander of the Western Marine Corps and probably the family head of the Valya family. The Lelcar trio are leaders of the three islets.
Maybe their lost will seriously lower the morale of of their troops and people in the case of Boz, Craig and the Lelcar trio.
Oh the other hand, the death of Shula might cause an uproar in the neighbouring Armes and enpower the other more expansionist clans which has just been humbled.
Losing Wiehelm or Mueller might throw Lindwurm into disarray...now that their leaders are dead they could (but might not) desert the price's cause. Lindwurm is a pretty big unit and is definately a decisive force in the Prince's Army (the main brigade is 5000 man strong. Mueller and Wiehelm most likely command some where between 1000-2000 men who are all veterns of war).
Seeing the importance of these figures, I suspect Lucretia will discourage them from participating in unnecessary battles to ensure their safety. Unfortunately, the fact that DINN is usable in combat...despite being the GENERAL of Sable forces kinda throw this theory into a loop...
On the other hand Chuck might be more important to the Prince's army then just being his storage man. Maybe Chuck is in charge of some logistics matters within the Prince's Army? Not to mention that he hates fighting
But in any case it will be cool if they can, I am gonna list my ideas about how they will be like in combat...because I have too much time anyway. You can also ignore the text in red if you are not interested in my ideas.
Boz will be a spearmen and prolly a clone of Nakuta, wearing the heaviest armour,, having two rune slots, having high ATT and PDEF while having crap for MAG, MDEF and EVA. I can see him having the Mow Down skill though and probably a S or SS rank in Raging Lion and Armour of Gods Epic Skills. It might seem like nothing but that already puts him in the top tier among the usable spearmen (Spear users aren't that good in this game ovefrall). Also he most likely have Unites with Dinn (they became a dynamic duo later in the game) and maybe Maroon, that punk beaver with GASP! a mohawk.....Mohawk Fans UNITE!Maybe he will even have a Mohawk Rune.....heh heh...what ever it does....
Craig will most likely be a 2H-Swordsmen ala Belcoot. He probably can't wear heavy armour (None of the Dragon Cavalry members can) and I can't see what unique rune he can have but probably have 3 rune slots.His stats will most probably a combination of Rahal and Roog in stats with good score on everything and excelling at TEC/EVA/AGI. In fact he, in my mind, could be a "mini-Georg" with less ATT but much more MDEF and MAG. Unites would most likely be with the FDC members, particularly Rahal(who is his second in command) and one with all the human FDC members. Maybe he will even have one with Miakis.....
Problem is....that you might have to add his green mount in as well....which screws up the number of stars you can get. His unite with his green mount will probably be called Green Charge(lame) if his mount is in the game that is...
Wiehelm will be another 2H-swordsman and be pertty much a clone of Dinn. With heavy armour, very high ATT and LUC but lousy EVA, AGI and non-existant MAG. His S ranked skills will most likely be Raging Lion and Triple Harmony. He most likely have 2 rune slots. I can see him having some sort of rune that makes him automatically take damage in place of a female character (think Phero Rune but working in reverse). Probably has a combine with Mueller (but not Richard) and one with all the LMB members. I can see him having a unite it Gavaya as well (Obvious reasons).
Mueller will be a staff user like Zweig and darn there is only Zweig! He will probably be a better character then Zweig to most people. (even though Zweig is great on my game) He will probably wear heavy armour and have better ATT, EVA, LUC and AGI then Zweig and high TEC but horrid MAG. I can see him having the Freeze skill, seeing he likes to hit people on the head with his staff/rod.
He probably will have S in Fate Control and maybe Swift Foot. 2 rune slots (all human characters have at least 2 rune slots in this game apparently), no unique rune. Unites with Richard, Wiehelm and both are a given. Maybe he will have one more with Zweig..since they are the only two staff users in the game and share that stern attitude. (Shoon and Nikea also have one like that and they are bith happy-go-lucky people.)
The Lelcar Trio are not that exciting so I wouldn't waste too much time on them...Of the three, Volga looks the most combat worthy...they probably make him a spear user..or maybe sword user seeing that he did taught Kyle how to fight. Wasil might be a L range character and Orok looks like a 1/2 way decent mage. The best thing is that the three will probably have a unite called......Lelcar No. 123..heh heh heh...
Shula Valya will probably be a L range character that fights with his...fan. I think he can throw it or something. The thing is there isn't really a serious mage character among the Armes people...the closest thing they have is Shamista and Josephine.
Shamista is more of support mage material and Josephine has that stupid Red Rose Rune stuck on her...making her unable to use Magic Drain...AND she is S range.
Shula will have extremely good MAG (maybe matching Viki) and have higher then average HP, ATT, EVA, TEC, AGI (he is a general after all). 3 rune slots and probably an in build Cyclone rune (there are no "serious" mage in the game that comes with a wind rune, only Matthias who is NOT a mage). SS in Zen Sword and Sacred Oath, S in everthing else(all "serious" mages in the game has at least an S for these skills). As for unites, I think he should have one with Josephine(she has NO unites in this game!) and maybe one with his lady friends...too bad the Pretty Boy/Fancy Lad unites have been taken...he can probably replace Richard/Matthias in that combo. |
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| Posted: Mon May 08, 2006 4:15 am Post subject: |
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You know, I've just had a good idea about Ferid.
They could've let us play as him in a flashback wherein he got Lyon, when Lyon retells how he met Ferid after escaping the Sun Palace. That would have been cool.
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ryanwh
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| Posted: Mon May 08, 2006 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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Up until I dueled Chuck I expected him to be an NPC(and really had no desire to play him) but then he whooped my ass the first time I dueled him, and I couldnt wait to play as him. Him, Wilhelm, and Mueller shoulda been playable and those stupid beavers(why the hell am I able to fight with the tiney female bathhouse beaver and not Mueller??) could of been NPCs that, united, created some kind of beaver minigame or something. Egbert would of been amusing as well, as would the old lady general who could of had some funny unite attacks with Lun, Logg and the wife(who's name I forgot since she couldnt fight).
Also, considering Boz and Dinn were essentially peers(being of equal importance to the plot and to major battles) it didnt make much sense to include Dinn but not Boz. |
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Acheron
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| Posted: Mon May 08, 2006 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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I can understand that some characters were shop owners and weren't fighters but there were several instances where the characters were warriors and didn't end up fighting with you encounters. Boz Wilde is a prime example. His character art has him with an Ax afterall. He would fit so well in the realms of a fighter on your team, already with a unite with Dinn and probably more than that.
Another prime example is Craig Laden. He was a warrior, leader of the best cavalry in Falena, and to get there he would need to fight. It's just a disappointment that you couldn't have him with you. He would have been so cool to be a fighter, and they would have had to introduce a mount for him too, probably, or say something like his partner dragonhorse died long ago and therefore Craig rides regular dragonhorses or something. There was already 3 dragonhorses and I think that may have been a reason why Konami decided not to let Craig fight.
I can see why the elderly aren't fighters like Raja, and diplomats like Wasil, but Volga? Come on! He has the eyes of a fighter, the muscles, and he's an advancment of Infantry in battle. He needs to be a fighter with a spear or something else, he just needs to be one.
Chuck. You duel him and he doesn't end up on your team. If they go through the trouble of having you fight him and give him combat motions and a weapon all his own and then decide not to let him fight? Euram's the same way. Lots of potentials who should have been in place of others. |
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Jossef
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| Posted: Fri May 12, 2006 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Acheron wrote: |
| I can understand that some characters were shop owners and weren't fighters but there were several instances where the characters were warriors and didn't end up fighting with you encounters. |
I completely agree here but, infuriatingly enough, the Librarian, Alhazred, Conductor, Cornelio, and Inventor's assisstants, Sorenson and Lu, can fight. So what sense does that make when a highly revered field general, Boz Wilde, the Commander of the Dragon Knights, Craig Laden, and two skilled mercenaries from the Lindwurm Cavalry, Willhelm and Mueller, can't fight.
I mean, I have nothing against Cornelio and Alhazred as people, but they blatantly should have been sidelined for people mentioned above as their fighting capabilities would have been obviously superior. Hell, the fact Dinn can fight and Boz can't fight just flat out makes no sense.
Then again, Suikoden has a tendency to do this every game so it is to be expected I suppose.
Anyway, I kind of wish Lucretia could of fought. This will make more sense to the Dynasty Warrior fans out there as I would have love to watch her shoots crazy laser beams out of her fan Zhuge Liang or Sima Yi style.
Also, Egbert Aethebald was one of my favourite characters so I was dissapointed to see him wield a blade on cavalry in the war battles and unable to fight in normal battles. I'd have especially have been curious as to what his sword names would have progressed to, mostly for amusement sake though. :)
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Rainrir
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| Posted: Fri May 12, 2006 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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Hmmm...I guess my post up there is TOO long for people to be bothered with read any part of it. I will put my explaination of why some of the guys who are combat worthy aren't participating in normal battles...
The Skinny:
Those guys like Boz, Craig, Mueller/Wiehelm, Shula and even Talgeyl are too important to be jeopadised by making them go out adventuring with the Prince.
The are LEADERS of their people...and their deaths, should it occur during such travels, will serious undermine the morale of the people they lead for Hero5's cause. Especially if their deaths, if it occurs, happens when they are TOGETHER with the Prince and not even in a WAR situation...it might make the Prince LOOK bad....I think.
Given such circumstances, I think Lucretia will advice these guys not to go adventuring with the prince......lest any unneccessary danger befall on them. |
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Jossef
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| Posted: Sat May 13, 2006 8:18 am Post subject: |
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| Rainrir wrote: |
The Skinny:
Those guys like Boz, Craig, Mueller/Wiehelm, Shula and even Talgeyl are too important to be jeopadised by making them go out adventuring with the Prince. |
I actually contemplated that as an idea, but then I realised something.
How could anyone be more important than the Prince himself, considering he is the figurehead and main man behind the whole "rebellion".
If he can go out adventuring and getting so involved, wouldn't you want people like Boz to be aiding him? Also, considering the Prince is the leader of all the leaders, then by that logic he shouldn't even be adventuring or usable himself.
Wabon is considered to be the leader of the Dwarves, to an extent, so wouldn't it be dangerous for him to be out fighting too?
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ryanwh
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| Posted: Sat May 13, 2006 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Rainrir-I read your post, did you read mine? Dinn and Boz were PEERS in battle and rank and story importance. One is in, one isnt. Your theory is void. Mueller isnt a leader, he's the cohort of a leader, Wilhelm,(the Dinn to our Boz, if you will) plus his student is playable, he should be as well. |
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Rainrir
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| Posted: Sat May 13, 2006 11:29 pm Post subject: |
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Oops sorry...I did read your post, but I didn't had the mood to type an essay out the other time...hohoho....
Well there are some differences between Boz and Dinn.....which may or may not be important.
Boz is the LORD of Estrise. He is not only in charge of the armed forces there but also the whole of the population that is living in that town. That places in him in an position of great responsibility to not only the Prince's cause and the troops from Estrise but ALSO the people of Estrise. He cannot, and should not be jeopadised. Dinn, on the other hand, is strictly a military leader of the forces from Sable. He is not resposible for the administration of the place and he is definately not the overall leader of the whole populace (Solis is).
If that is the case, then I think it can be argued that the lost of Dinn in battle can be devestating to the morale of Sable troops and to some extent the people. However, there can alway be a replacement (think Ridley/Boris scenario) general. Boz on the other hand...is the LORD of Estrise and his loss...can be said...to almost as devastaing, to both the morale of the Estrise troops AND its people. It will not be as easy to replace a popular LORD (who is the leader of both armed forces and adminstration) then a popular General(who is strictly a military leader).
Yes Boz and Dinn are peers of the same rank (general) in battle and damn good friends, but they are not in the same level of importance to their people (one can be said to be a president/general but the other still a general)
Wabon only happen to be a leader when the drawves needed one. Look at Zunda's comments, it seems that the Drawves do not have a definate "leader", like those drawves of Toran, before they got involved in the Prince's war. Well, Wabon might be important to rally the drawves to the prince cause. But he, somewhat like Dinn, is only a para-military leader and not a OVERALL in charge of the drawves like Boz (to Estrise) or Craig(to the Dragon Cavalry). In the event of his death, it is not like Gunde or some other drawf cannot step into his position.
Heh, the dynamic of the Lindwurm duo tells me that while Wilhelm is the leader of the Lindwurm Unit. Mueller is that adminstrator and the one that does the ground work. Wilhelm, I feel, is an example of a "charismatic" leader while Mueller is the so called "practical issues" leader. Wilhelm can rally the man and make them charge for him, but Mueller make sures the men are well disciplined, how funds are used and the "nitty-gritty" things that is important to the fuctioning of the Unit.
I believe that neither man can replace each other on running the Lindwurm Unit and I would argue that both men are of equal importance to the smooth fuctioning of the Lindwurm unit . They cannot be risked.
Even if you disagree on this analysis, you must admit that Mueller is more the just a cohort of the leader(Wilhelm). Richard on the other hand, is only one warrior in Lindwurm with fantastic swordplay and possible leadership potential..but ISN'T in an important position OTHER then being its No.1 swordsman yet.
Well, you can say that all of the Prince's "adventures" are done either to 1)further the overall cause or 2)done when Lucretia doesn't know or in one case or 3) a situation where the Dawn Rune is needed or, in one case,4) to save Lyon.
Lucretia is a second-in-command of the Prince's army...Perhaps she didn't want to pull a "Shu" to control the Prince's every movement but she CAN control the other generals' movements.
At least that is how I justify it...feel free to rip it apart. heh heh :P |
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Jossef
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| Posted: Sun May 14, 2006 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Rainrir wrote: |
Even if you disagree on this analysis, you must admit that Mueller is more the just a cohort of the leader(Wilhelm). Richard on the other hand, is only one warrior in Lindwurm with fantastic swordplay and possible leadership potential..but ISN'T in an important position OTHER then being its No.1 swordsman yet.
Well, you can say that all of the Prince's "adventures" are done either to 1)further the overall cause or 2)done when Lucretia doesn't know or in one case or 3) a situation where the Dawn Rune is needed or, in one case,4) to save Lyon.
Lucretia is a second-in-command of the Prince's army...Perhaps she didn't want to pull a "Shu" to control the Prince's every movement but she CAN control the other generals' movements. |
Although I understand what you mean about Boz, Wilhelm, etc, being very important leaders to where they belong and trying to minimize the jeopardy they will face, I still feel the other reaons for them to be available outweigh the reasons why they shouldn't be.
First off, I do agree, both Wilhelm and Mueller are equally crucial to the Lindwurm Cavalry and Richard isn't
Secondly, I'll deal with the points as you have put them:
1)If the Prince has to do anything to further his cause then he should and would want who he thought was able enough to do this with him. If he considers Boz to be the most capable then the Prince needs who he thinksis most capable. After all he is the most important person here.
2)I have a feeling Lucretia knows fine well most of the time. Otherwise, if the Prince, of all people, can sneak off without her knowledge, I'm sure anyone else can.
3)I go back to my explanation of point 1 here as this rune is damn important and if the Prince is endangered, he'll need who he thinks is best to maintain himself.
4)In theory, the Prince shouldn't be on wild missions to go save his bodyguard, of all people. Other people should be doing that for him as this is highly risky to his life never mind his underlings.
Finally, Lucretia may be above most others but the Prince's word is final. If he decides he wants an army of tamed killer rabbits to go to war with then that's what he gets. So regardless of what Lucretia may be able to tell other general, if the Prince wanted them, he could get them.
Another thing is that these guys are fighting in the front lines of war battles, which are quite often more dangerous than the Prince's "adventures", as the probability of dying would be so much higher as there are a greater number of foes to deal with.
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Rainrir
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| Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 12:00 pm Post subject: |
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1)If the Prince has to do anything to further his cause then he should and would want who he thought was able enough to do this with him. If he considers Boz to be the most capable then the Prince needs who he thinksis most capable. After all he is the most important person here.
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Hmm...maybe I didn't phrase it correctly, but I think that there are so many other capable fighters other than Boz (Belcoot. Nikea etc.), who are not as "important" to the prince's cause as he is ("Important" because all the SoDs are important...just Boz evidently so). Lucretia, or somebody else, might feel that it is not wise to send Boz etc. rather than someone without an appointment.
Also, much of the time Boz might be involved in several other "background" activities...like adminstration of Estrise troops or preparation for the next battle (Dinn also disappears from the roster from time to time)
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2)I have a feeling Lucretia knows fine well most of the time. Otherwise, if the Prince, of all people, can sneak off without her knowledge, I'm sure anyone else can.
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Yea, in hindsight I think this is not a correct idea. So scratch that...Lucretia is quite the crafty woman to be not in the know...
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3)I go back to my explanation of point 1 here as this rune is damn important and if the Prince is endangered, he'll need who he thinks is best to maintain himself.
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There are a few instances where the Prince must go on "adventures" because he is the sole possessor of the Dawn Rune. Like the issue with the Twilight Rune, the Twilight Forest Ruins/Ceras Gate Ruins etc. These adventure he MUST go because the Dawn Rune itself is the key to unlocking such events. Furthermore, a few times Lucretia herself recommends the Prince to meet "leaders" in person to show the Prince's "Sincerity"(like the Craig and Shula event)
Yes, he is going to need the best protection...and there are again several other capable warriors (who do not hold important responsibility like Boz) that can escort him.
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4)In theory, the Prince shouldn't be on wild missions to go save his bodyguard, of all people. Other people should be doing that for him as this is highly risky to his life never mind his underlings.
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Ah, but Lucretia also understands the effect of the morale in times of war. Pardon me for saying this, but I think Lyon's incident affects the whole castle's morale and DEFINATELY affects the Prince's morale. You can fight a war when your leader is more concerned about personal matters..but your leader might not be in the best condition to fight that war.
The Prince might be a leader of a army, but he is still a boy..After the death of his parents and seperation from his sister...Lyon is probably the only thing he has left. Lyon's life hanging on the tread and fighting a war at the same time is probably going to put a large emotional strain on him. A leader should be clear headed when making life-or-death decisions.
Lucretia foresaw this possibility and that is the reason why she allows Hero to go on the journey to save Lyon. That woman is a min/max-er of her advantages in war, letting the prince save Lyon is really a mid-risk/big-reward gamble (Because Sindar-Nerd aka Zweig is with Hero..so she thinks). Remember, at that stage...only the DAWN RUNE could have helped Lyon...
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Another thing is that these guys are fighting in the front lines of war battles, which are quite often more dangerous than the Prince's "adventures", as the probability of dying would be so much higher as there are a greater number of foes to deal with.
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Yes, greater number of foes..but also greater number of allies fighting together....some type of safety in numbers I guess. I am not going to say that fighting wars are safe...but generally the leaders of units are pretty well protected in wars they are in. Their troops will usually give their lives to make sure their commander lives if the situation take a turn for the worse.
However, in the Prince's adventure..there are only like 6-10 of them against whatever dangers that can happen...like an ambush(ala Stormfist) or some unexpected monester/guardian attack.(ala Ceras Ruins/Twilight Runes) I feel that in such cases, the chance of actually dying is higher(no troops to protect you) |
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Jossef
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| Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 10:30 pm Post subject: |
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I was going to further my point and explain reasons why I think they should be usable, but I'm just going to refrain.
All I am going to be doing is re-iterating points I have already made and this discussion wont really progress due to this.
In this case, we'll just have to agree to disagree. :)
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Onix
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| Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 10:42 pm Post subject: |
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Well, I thought Norden would be a fighter, he'd use his empty glass battle for combat aehehhee. I already assumed that Craig wouldn't be a "fighting character" though. I thought Boz and Chuck were fighters....weee too bad hehee :o :o
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Rainrir
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| Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 2:22 am Post subject: |
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Yea...agreed Sir Spudlerik gentleman's agreement I guess. BTW, am I reiterating points too? Just want to know...It seems the trends I post in tend to erupt into big time debates...heh.
:P
Maybe..just maybe Egbert should be a fighting character...I really want to see his response when you bring him before Marscarl and Gizel...but then again..all sense of drama will be lost... |
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Jossef
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| Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 7:18 am Post subject: |
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No, you haven't really repeated any points Rainrir. I only decided against another post because I feel my argument was about to become repetitive and unproductive.
This is because my take on it, in a nutshell, is:
If the Prince has to go anywhere, for any reason, that involves risking his life then he should have who he feels is comfortable with and thinks is competent enough to be in battle with him.
If he can have a librarian, engineer's assistant or conductor in situations that involve risking the most important member of the armies life, he should be entitled to use beilievable fighters.
Even if their death would cause an upset to morale, I'd rather be using them than some of what is available.
The only other point I was thnking of raising was the time when Boz and Dinn are away to handle the fake Prince's bandits at Sable. This was potentially dangerous as bandits are oftentimes ready for battle and can be remarkable at ambushes sometimes. Luckily, it wasn't a threatening situation for them.
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