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Filipe
The Executors of Harmonian Order
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 Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 12:06 am Post subject: |
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| Sophita wrote: |
Interesting.
Wonder if he'll be impeached - he did lie to America.
(I kind of doubt it, though. Republican control in all three arms of government, plus the fact that most people would rather see Bush in power than Cheney*...)
*Seriously, is there a less charismatic man in the world? |
First of all, for a President to be impeached he must lie, under oath in a legal inquiry, which is a crime. Thats one of many things that need to happen for a president to be impeached, so you are right thats it's not going to happen. A president lying to the American people, is sometimes a nessecity because obviously he is privy to certain information the American people arent entitled to know. Unlike Clinton, who did lie under oath about his relationship with Monica Lowinsky, Bush hasnt been under oath about anything. So really he could come on television and tell people that the sky is fleurescent(sp?) purple, and whats anyone going to do? Nothing it would only be a crime if he went into court, and seriously claimed that as the truth. Besides I actually agree with Sophita on this issue, Cheney would not be very desirable as President of the United States. I dont much like Dick Cheney for the way he does things, and just his general bleakness both in attitude, and otherwise. Policy wise, i dont know really I havent heard any discussions with him on that.
For those of you that keep insisting that this war has always been about nothing but oil, it's funny that not a single barrel of oil has left Iraq since the war started. In fact not only has not a single barrel of oil left Iraq, but the price of gas is still insanely high, and nothing has changed on that front. So tell me,if it has been about oil, where is all this oil they were going to grab, and take for use in the US? Why is the gas still $3+ a gallon in the United states, and hovering around $1 a litre here in Canada? This just makes me think that, there was something else behind his reasoning for eliminating Saddam Hussein from power, and it sure as heck wasnt oil.
The war torn areas of Africa havent seen any assistance from the US troops, is because it would be suicide by any means. I dont know if any of you follow the way that war takes place down there, but it makes anything you see in Iraq seem tame by any sense of the imagination. Also a lot of the areas are covered in dense areas, thus sending in forces with tanks, and such would also not be that viable of an option. Also, those are areas taken care of by the UN, they are the ones doing all the humanitarian aid around the world. They are the ones dealing with the internal strife, and persecution so why arent they doing anything about it? The US does things through the power of their military, and their money which as much as people say they dont give enough they give a heck of a lot of money to these countries. The US is the largest charity contributors in the entire world, despite the fact that everyone hates them, even before the Iraq war. Every country in the world hates the US, for it's power, and it's influence..... until they need something from them.
You also have to consider in that situation the fact that what use would it have going in there? If they were to support one side against another, they would not instill a side with democracy. Essentially in all strife in Africa it's one tyrannical faction fighting against another tyrannical faction. Sad as it is, it wouldnt make the least bit of sense in doing so. You are right though Sybillious the US would not have anything to gain from it in terms of economic, or political ties. Even from humanitarian means in Africa what might be good for some, will not be that good for others. Im going to use an example from my dads personal experience, fighting to defend Portugese settlers in Angola, about 30 years ago.
My father was raised from the age of three until he was 23 years of age in the country of Angola. At the time Angola was still under the control of the Portugese goverment, as corrupt as they were under the dictator Salazar. Everything was fine in the territory until towards the end of his reign in Portugal, Salazar began to impose some policies in the territories that didnt sit well with the Angolans. To be honest, from what he tells me it bothered quite a few of the Portugese who were there as well, but considering he was a dictator, there was nothing they could do. Soon after there was a revolution in Portugal, and Salazar's goverment was removed from power completely. If your wondering soon after making those policies, he died of lung cancer I believe was the actual cause. The Angolan nationals decided they were going to break free from Portugal, and start their own country. The Portugese colonists not only were willing to let them have it, but even helped them remove the corrupt official who still had control. This is when the problems started because a faction of the Angolan army whom wanted all Portugese removed, wanted to do so by force. The other side was mixed on the issue, some wanting them to stay, others wanting them to leave peacefully, namely just asking them to leave. Problems erupted, and eventually the Portugese were forced to flee the nation, under fire from one of the factions. My father was there fighting to defend them, and he still regrets being forced to shoot at some people he once considered friends.
So what happened after this instance, once the Portugese had left Angola? Well the two factions still existed, and there was a hole in the power structure of Angola. What happened next I am sure you can imagine, is that for the next 30 years, many different factions were in a constant state of civil war. This ended awhile back, and I am glad for them but countless people died, because the entire war was basically guerilla warfare. They were slaughtering each other for decades, and really the Portugese wanted to go in there, and help as they felt partially responsible. However, they obviously could not do so. This is why I mentioned this, a lot of Portugese people still hold a grudge against Angola though, and very few are willing to even donate to help rebuild.
These are all likely scenarios for what could happen if the US sent soldiers into any African countries to deal with these issues. They would be getting into the middle of something they have no reason for being in, when humanitarian issues are something that the UN deals with. They should have been the ones dealing with Iraq for that matter, but I am not going to make mention of the issues with the UN in this post.
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Loran Cehack
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| Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 12:51 am Post subject: |
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When I said that they did it because they feared a peak oil situation, I meant that it was premptive resource grab before it really became wide spread knowledge of how bad the situation really is.
IF the peak oil theory is correct and we do start running out of cheap oil (i.e. people can no longer be able to function in their daily life because it is so expensive) countries will start to openly go to war over it in an attempt to keep their country running properly.
In other words I didn't mean he seized Iraq to get the price of gas cheaper, he did it to keep us from running out for a longer period of time.
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Zero
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| Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 3:38 am Post subject: |
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Our contry was built to profit from colinazation, so in all honestly I would assume that this was just the first step. Maybe a conspiracy theory, but in all honesty that's the way every great empire starts, and ultimately I see that being the goal of America.
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Ninjar
The Shins
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Zero
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| Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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There's too many things for you to pick his administration apart over honestly, but the man isn't an idiot so I do have some form of respect for him. I think South Park put it best when they said that America was founded specifically so that they can go to war, and be against going to war so it makes it alright. Public outcries aren't ever going to make a difference, that's been proven over and over, remember Vietnam?
None the less, I don't nessisarily agree with the direction things are going now. It's placing even more unwanted attention on our country, as if enough people didn't secretly despise us, pretty soon everyone's going to start coming out of the closet and we're going to be stuck between a rock and a hard case.
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Maximillian
Dead Soggy Old Dudes
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| Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 12:17 pm Post subject: |
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I'd also blame Dems for not choosing a better candidate than Kerry. It was really stupid how the media went nutz to discredit Democrat candidates other than Kerry.
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Admiral Ackbar
Seekers of Hawke's Hot Stuff
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| Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, I hate Bush as much as many of you here do, but Kerry wasn't exactly a great candidate.
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Loran Cehack
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| Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 2:27 pm Post subject: |
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Nobody wanted Kerry, a lot of people wanted Dean, I wanted Kucinich. At first it was only because he was in the same quadrant* as me on the political compass test, but then I did some research on him and found that I really liked his policies. It's a shame nobody even really noticed him, I remember asking people what they thought of Kucinich and they'd reply with a hearty "Who?"
Oh well, at least Brain on Family Guy had Kucinich 2004 bumpersticker, so that means he wasn't totally forgotten and unnoticced.
* Only he and Sharpton were there which was suprising to say the least, all the other democratic hopefuls were in the same quadrant as Bush.
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Arcana
The Engineers
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| Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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Bush defends domestic spying.
Bush calls revelation of the program "Shameful".
Mentioned already but lost in the discussion.
From the article:
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| "As President of the United States and commander in chief, I have the constitutional responsibility and the constitutional authority to protect our country," he said at a year-end White House news conference. |
Also:
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| "It was a shameful act for someone to disclose this important program in a time of war. The fact that we're discussing this program is discussing the enemy," he said. |
And finally:
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| Offering a two-pronged defence, the President said his authority as wartime commander-in-chief gave him legal authority to order the wiretaps and asserted that the 1978 law prohibiting domestic intercepts didn't apply when the call -- or the e-mail -- was to or from an international location. |
A democrat said he spoke out against the program two years ago, as well, which flies in the face of Bush's statement that claims that top democrats knew of and approved the program.
Don't worry, fellow Americans. Big daddy Bush knows what's best for you.
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Timbo
The Wandering Prophets
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| Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Filipe wrote: |
| The US is the largest charity contributors in the entire world, despite the fact that everyone hates them, even before the Iraq war. Every country in the world hates the US, for it's power, and it's influence..... until they need something from them. |
Can I see a source for that? I have heard from numerous other places the exact opposite.
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Admiral Ackbar
Seekers of Hawke's Hot Stuff
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| Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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I agree. The US currently has a stellar debt. I doubt we're in any position to start handing out money unless we were going to get something profitable out of it.
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Zero
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| Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 6:04 pm Post subject: |
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That is after all the way we've worked for a very long time now. If you need an example, just look at World War II. If Japan hadn't of attacked, we more than likely would never have stepped foot on foriegn soil. Unless we benefit, or unless we're directly involved America will NOT step into the center of any conflict.
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Prince Crisafulli
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| Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 11:31 am Post subject: |
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Then what about the Korean war? I don't see how America benefitted, the war ended in a stale mate, and the boundary at the 34th parralel remained largely unchaged, only a minor alterfication from the original map, so their plans of ousting the communists of the North didn't exactly go to plan. They may plan to gain, but they don't always gain.
I have three examples I know of where American influence backfired and they lost rather than gained influence:
1. Vietnam - They armed the Vietcong to fight the Japanese during World War Two, but as soon as the war ended they were quick to change sides and arm France, then the South Vietnamese and then take matters into their own hands in Vietnam, only to lose the war.
2. Afghanistan - They armed the Afghanistan army and Taliban forces from 1979 onwards during the Soviet Russian invasion of Afghanistan, only for Bin Laden who fought against the Russians to turn against America and become a terrorist later, since the 9/11 attacks at the World Trade Centre the Taliban were defeated and replaced with an American puppet government, however its efficiency is to be scrutinised, still there is no Bin Laden found, and there are Taliban and Islamic Fundamentalist Military Insurgenets still around.
3. Iraq - They were originally supported and armed for a deterant against Kuwait and for more political influence in the Middle East, however following George Bush Senior in Gulf War 1, and Daddy's Boy George W. Bush Junior declaring an illegal war against Iraq in Gulf War 2. Saddam Hussein has been toppled, but the new Iraqi government is anything but stable and the situation isn't ideal for a democratic society.
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