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Your Favorite Suikoden Strategist
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Who is your favorite Strategist in Suikoden?
Albert Silverberg
10%
 10%  [ 27 ]
Apple
4%
 4%  [ 12 ]
Caesar Silverberg
5%
 5%  [ 15 ]
Dios
1%
 1%  [ 4 ]
Klaus Windamier
4%
 4%  [ 11 ]
Leon Silverberg
13%
 13%  [ 35 ]
Mathiu Silverberg
11%
 11%  [ 30 ]
Nash Latkje
2%
 2%  [ 6 ]
Salome Harras
7%
 7%  [ 21 ]
Sebastian
0%
 0%  [ 1 ]
Jess
0%
 0%  [ 2 ]
Shu
38%
 38%  [ 104 ]
Total Votes : 268

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Sualtam Lugh

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PostPosted: Sat May 22, 2004 10:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Blue, to your disproving of Mathiu being a good strategist, I can say two things to back him up.

First, He loathed wars. He loathed fighting. But he wanted peace. Yes, his mistakes caused more death int he future, but you forget to mention how the end relationship between Dunan and Toran came out. Because the Highland Army started to attack, the Shambled City State, led by Riou, and the rest of the Mercs, and Soldiers of Muse, they needed to gain more help.

You don't think that Lepant didn't really want to help? Of course he had doubts. But he remembered that at one time Dunan had aided him against the Corruption of Babarossa, and helped free Toran. Sure Mathiu's plans and strategies may have had a minor impact, but had certain things not happened, the original may have not been won.

Second, Mathiu trained Shu and Apple. You said his student was better then he. This isn't uncommon. In fact, this is one of the things that comes from being a teacher. You should know that. In grade 2, you learn things in math and such, that you will know like the back of your hand. You don't think by the time you're out of university, doing whatever you chose to do, you won't know more then your 50 year old grade 2 teacher? Of course you will! That's why teachers want to be teachers. They know that they helped do certain things. They don't get credit for it, but they know what they did. Mathiu's age was a great impact on decisions he made. Toran was unfit to live in before the first internal war. Clearly something bad had to happen.

Apple saw first hand what happened in both wars, and in the end, I would believe that that would be justifiable, in her eyes, or what had happened over that span of 5.5 years.

I'm not saying Mathiu is the best strategist (I shotguned Shu for that one, although I have some doubts...Go Sun Tzu) I'm just saying, he's not 2nd rate.

Mathiu WAS careless towards his own safety, but he was also ready to die for what he believed in. And what his sister believed in.

And although Scarlet Moon had no notable Strategists, it doesn't mean that the generals didn't know strategy. That's an unfair assumption on your part.

Might I add that The Dunan Group had influence all over That area. None of the people actually wanted to be part of Highland. With Suikoden 1, It was an internal war. A civil war. Suikoden two was External. You forgot to mention that. Taking down something from the inside takes a lot more work. It takes quick manouvres, but it also requires when to attack. Also, the Freedom Army (Suikoden 2) had a lot more base of army. The Liberation Army had to start very small. Not just take over one city at a time. They had to bring down generals at a time. There was no manipulation like that of Taking over Milich Oppenhiemer in Suikoden 2. Cheap tricks like Poison flowers were never an issue. Certain people had to be saved in Suikoden 1, like Lukian. Viktor was another example of a final general needing saving. Mathiu wanted to make sure he had a decent edge, and in that situation, he couldn't call for outside forces like Riou and Shu could, ie Toran.

Mathiu never had any warriors to spare. He needed them all to attack. He wasn't really ever at an advantage until the last battle. A decent advantage of course. An all out attack on Gregminister was the only time Mathiu was 100% sure of Victory. The loss of the Toran castle wouldn't have meant anything, because all the forces were at Gregminister. Sure there we times when Defense would have been necessary, but it wasn't possible.

Also, Shu made sure all the attacks were quick. That is a good strategy in war, but Shu had the resources to scare them. North Window was also a Versitile city. They had lake access, AND land access. Toran Castle was in the middle of a lake. One decent naval assault and it would have been gone. Mathiu needed to worry about how long he would have to make attacks and gather allies. With Shu, it was a battle for time. This brings my internal external battle. Highland didnt have to wait for anything. Barb did. He had to wait because every time Mathiu stuck, he lost warriors. But he had sooooooo many, it wasn't that big of a thorn. Also, Windy was more fo the mastermind, and she just wanted a friggin rune. the situations were a lot different.

You're only arguement I can't say anything two is "Unscoupulous Deserter". He is guilty of that. And that's true. But don't assume he didn't beat himself up for it. Wait...you didn't assume that. That was the main reason he didn't want to be a strategist again. But he realized that that was a crucial time to strike back. Not because they were fed up with the Empire, but that something was wrong.

Sure he's got his flaws, but so did every other Strategist. Shu relied on Luck, Leon was a bit gulliable, Klaus underestimated. Even Jowy underestimated.

Try not to beat up on Mathiu too much. If it wasn't for what he did, there woudl be no Toran, and better yet, no Dunan.
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Cedric

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PostPosted: Sat May 22, 2004 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

1. What makes this strategist your favorite?

Albert Silverberg

Anyone who can manipulate Harmonia, the Grasslands, and Zexen and even Luc just to get a promotion shows a lot of ambition. Let's not forget that he did this pretty much undercover. He's so young, yet he's already acting like Leon. His future is very promising. Also, he may be working for another powerful country???

2. What scene do you like involving this strategist?

The best scene would have to be the time he stood up to the Destroyers in the Ceremonial site. With no fear, he went there to "help" them., even if he didn't. He risked angering Luc to ask if he had a lingering attatchment to this world. He most certainly didn't flinch when Luc threatened to kill him or when he stood up to Yuber saying he'd rather have the world populated with humans.


3. What strategic action performed by this character do you find memorable?

He told Nash where the site was held. He knew if Caeser heard his name, he'd send the whole army out there. This brings the manipulation into full circle. Luc too was manipulated. He's a brilliant person.
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Vextor




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PostPosted: Sun May 23, 2004 5:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:
Try not to beat up on Mathiu too much. If it wasn't for what he did, there woudl be no Toran, and better yet, no Dunan.


The very same can be said about Leon Silverberg. Without him, Barbarossa wouldn't have won his war. Also, without him, Luca Blight would not be dead.
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Sualtam Lugh

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PostPosted: Sun May 23, 2004 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:

The very same can be said about Leon Silverberg. Without him, Barbarossa wouldn't have won his war. Also, without him, Luca Blight would not be dead.


That's my point. It's kind of hard to rate a strategist that way. Remember, we are on the outside. We see everything that person has done, and what the outcome is. Because of this, this happened. The ripple effect.

It seems I've made an error. You're arguement was that Mathiu was a second rate strategist. Not that he wasn't a "get the job done and win" strategist. He got things done, but in a less effective way. The points I presented back to you showed that he was successful dispite his flaws. Although I may have countered for some of those flaws, because they were evident, they still stand.

I guess the only thing I can say is, can we judge someone in a position we can never truly understand?
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Vextor




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PostPosted: Sun May 23, 2004 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Pyroflame wrote:
I guess the only thing I can say is, can we judge someone in a position we can never truly understand?


Thanks for your thoughtful response. To your above statement, I would say that one can make a judgement of people in positions we would never truly understand, as long as the judgement is based on objective evidence.

Objective evidence are facts that can not be disputed, such as known examples of cause and effect in history. For that reason, abstract ideas such as "intent" or "personality" is hard to use as justification.

My method of judgeing whether someone is effective or not is strictly deontological--did the person fulfill their duty as defined by their position?

Duty is a very important concept in Suikoden, as the main characters of all games struggle between their personal desires and the overbearing duty of being a leader. The ability to stick to one's own duty is admirable, and shows the person's inner strength as well as their intrinsic value towards others by virtue of their integrity.

In terms of the duty of being a "strategist," Leon and Salome enbody the ideal--in my opinion.
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Sualtam Lugh

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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2004 7:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:

Duty is a very important concept in Suikoden, as the main characters of all games struggle between their personal desires and the overbearing duty of being a leader. The ability to stick to one's own duty is admirable, and shows the person's inner strength as well as their intrinsic value towards others by virtue of their integrity.

In terms of the duty of being a "strategist," Leon and Salome enbody the ideal--in my opinion.


Indeed, you could have even went as far as saying duty is the very essence of Suikoden. It was a sense of duty for every hero to do what was meant to be done.

To your second statement, is the ideal strategist always the best?
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Vextor




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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2004 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

"Best" is a subjective, abstract concept. However, the effectiveness of a strategist also depends on the leader who employs the strategist. Even if you have a good strategist, if you can not use them well, they won't help much.
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PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2004 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

1. What makes this strategist your favorite?
Well, Maithu is my favorite because he always seems so calm during the battles. In my opinion he is the most wise of the strategists. Maybe I think that because he taught Shu and Apple, but I am not to sure.

2. What scene do you like involving this strategist?
I like the first scene when you first meet him because he will protect the children at all costs, but still knows the sacrifices of war and that is why he lived in seclusion.

3. What strategic action performed by this character do you find memorable?
I think the scene where he uses all the boats to travel to Sonya's sanctuary. That shows how much wisdom he has and preparation. I believe this is a huge part in ending the war.
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PostPosted: Sat May 29, 2004 8:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Your Favorite Suikoden Strategist Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I'm the guy who voted for Caesar, the strategist who had absolutely no opportunities to show what he could do. He was fighting on a battlefield that's really more like Europe in the age of musketeers, you know...

1. What makes this strategist your favorite?
It's all summed up in this one line he says... "There are limits to what a strategist can do." Caesar didn't have to turn Hugo, Chris or Geddoe in to a mouthpiece he used to motivate troops while he issued all the orders. What he did was identify enemy goals, keep the lines of supply open, and lead the army as a whole. That's the thing I really, really hate about Shu. It's obvious HE leads the army and Riou is just a mouthpiece he uses to bellow orders through. Caesar is Hugo's guide. Sure, he's not an omnipotent super-genius like Leon (who approaches that annoying Grand Admiral Thrawn level of strategic know-how) but that's what makes him not have to control everyone. A super-genius like Shu or Leon seem to make the plan and then everyone has to follow it, unlike Caesar, who is always open to suggestions.

Another thing I really like about him is that, unlike the other strategists that we see, Caesar is still growing in to his craft and so he still has a lot of room to grow as a character. Suikoden IV really disappointed me when I found out it was to be a prequel, because I was hoping that Caesar and Albert could continue their conflict. Caesar is almost as pure a student of Mathiu's school as we'll probably get, which makes him a good foil for Albert.

2. What scene do you like involving this strategist?
Well, I'm fond of the one in Thomas 2, but also the beginning of Chapter 4, when Caesar just sort of barges in to the meeting and rattles off his family's resume, then goes over the steps they need to start taking to fight Harmonia. In general, I just like the way he and Albert's personalities bounce off each other's, although I don't think they had enough conversations, to be honest.

3. What strategic action performed by this character do you find memorable?
I'm going to assume you mean tactical... seeing as Suikoden never seems to be able to make a distinction. My personal favorite has to be handing that letter over to Juan, who runs it to VdZ. And then councilmen are strung up on charges of corroborating with Harmonia. It would seem to me that Caesar was already working with Salome even at this early stage. Which I'm all for... I like all of the Suikoden III strategists well enough.
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Sualtam Lugh

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PostPosted: Mon May 31, 2004 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The difference between Shu's leading and Caeser's.....

Shu had something to lose. He lived in Radat, and that would have gone under Highland Territory. Albiet he probably wouldn't have cared too much, his part in the war was to liberate Dunan from Highland (Using Dunan as that area is legitamite because it's after the fact). Caeser just happened to be in the area. He was just lending some advice, as opposed to being part of one side of the war.

Dispite this, Caeser still has the strategist blood in him. He still knows what's goin down.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2004 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Just to be sure...this post contains spoilers for Suikoden 1.






I`d have to say Mathiu. I thought he had the best development and
backstory, and I enjoyed his moral dilemmas about being a strategist while not wanting to kill people. He was also quite a tragic character, unlike Shu and Caesar, who died for his cause in the end. And he always left the glory for others, being a pretty quiet kind of person who just hung back in the background. He was extremely skilled at his craft, but very humble at the same time.

As for my favourite scene...that has to be his death scene. That`s one of the most touching scenes in S1 IMHO. His most memorable strategic action was perhaps manipulating the Jowston troops. At least that seemed the most clever one, to me.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2004 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Don't forget Dios, he's got the nose and the chops that make the ladies go wild
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TheStrategist

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2004 2:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

It's a battle between Shu & Albert.....I would have to say Albert...
s3 spoiler
He is basically responsible for the entire war of the third game.. he manipulated luc & the destroyers and harmonia...
But the reason i also think Shu is worthy, is because he showed a lot of character development in the second game. At first, he was just like Leon, where he believed soldiers to be pawns in a game, and now makes his decision based on courage of not only brave leaders, but the loyalty of nameless soldiers...
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2004 3:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Yes, Shu had something to lose in the process. But obviously not too much, because as he said himself, his business would continue. He joined, for all intents and purposes, originally to shut Apple up. Likewise, while Caesar didn't have anything necessarily to lose (at the start, anyway), his involvement is on a far more personal level, considering Albert is his brother. Both of them have motivations for what they're doing. Motivation is not Shu's flaw, however. It's Shu's command structure.

Remember Shu's move with Ridley defecting? Sure, it was clever and threw off the enemy. But what it also did was threw off his OWN army. Nobody else knew of this plan but him and Ridley. Not, for example, his key field commanders like Flik, Viktor, Gilbert and the rest. Not the figurehead/leader of the army. Nobody. You know what that says? Shu's command structure has all authority focused at the top. It also says to the people below that Shu doesn't trust them with jack. It doesn't exactly help morale or boost spirits. Never mind the fact that if Shu had been assassinated in mid-plan, the entire offensive would have fallen apart, because Shu has a particular joy for keeping his surprises to himself.

Nobody else does such a risky, initiative-squelching move. Mathiu and Caesar always made sure to brief their fellow strategists and unit leaders. The Highland Army under Leon's guidance never once suffered one of those paniced collapses when a plan went awry like Dunan did a number of times. Discussing Albert is a bit tricky on this issue, since he was a very duplicitous type, so I'll just skip over him. He's not the best example of a strategist anyway, what with his loyalty so far in question. Nonetheless, Shu was apparently the only one who felt the need to stifle initiative by keeping plans all to himself. The move with Ridley? Stuff like that makes your unit commanders unwilling to sieze an opportunity, because they no longer know when there's a secret plan by their own strategist they don't know about.

In short, Shu's command structure is fragile and no fun for anyone but him.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2004 4:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

This is to argue with SARSadmin's theory on why Mathiu is second rate strategist because I voted for Mathiu.

Quote:
1) Mathiu took a lot longer to finish his war than his student.
While Shu only took 6 months to finish the Dunan Unification War, Mathiu took 2 years to finish the Gate Rune Wars. Toran is geographically smaller in area compared to Dunan, the political situation in Dunan was also quite more complex, and Shu had to deal with not only one, but two skilled enemy strategists (Klaus Windamier and Leon Silverberg). Mathiu faced the Scarlet Moon Army, which had no notable military strategists aiding them. This proves that Mathiu is definitely second-rate compared to Shu.

Though yes Toran is geographically smaller, the size wasn't the case IMO. The difference was that in DUW, it was clearer that it was a war between Jowston and Highland. So Shu's job was a bit easier because he would have gathered Jowston's support since they were in fact being threatened by Highland. While on the other hand, Liberation Army was a small group of people who had no back up other than from freelance people. So Mathiu was working with a smaller support compared to Shu. Hence, the need of more time to gather enough people which in the end resulted in longer time needed to finish the war.

Also, we couldn't discard the fact that Luca was defeated with the help of Leon/Jowy giving the info about the night raid. At that point, if I'm not mistaken, Shu was already run out of ideas on how to defeat him (even the last attempt of "gang up on Luca" tactic failed). So again, Shu had support from the opponent, while Mathiu had a spy inside his army. The situation was totally the other way around.

The two strategists factor was a 50-50 IMO. The reason is that although Shu faced Leon and Klaus, both of them also helped Shu (with Klaus eventually joining full time, while Leon giving the very vital information about Luca's night raid). So it's not really a full dead-on disadvantage on Shu, but it's also an advantage. While Mathiu had Apple and Leon's help, it was never shown in any storyline especially since Leon was an optional character and Apple was a little girl who had no part at all.

Quote:
2) Mathiu Was Careless for his own Safety
Although Mathiu knew there were spies inside the Toran Liberation Army, he did not take any precautions and remained a vulnerable target to whomever who was acting as an agent for the Scarlet Moon Empire. This ended up in him getting injured, which lead to his death. This makes him second-rate because the Toran Republic really needed Mathiu after the war to bring stability to the country. His carelessness makes him second-rate.

If I'm not mistaken, Shu was also ready to die in the fire in the forest. If this makes Mathiu a second rate strategist, Shu is as second-rate as Mathiu then.

Quote:
3) Lack of Defensive Measures
Whereas Shu always made sure some troops remained in North Window Castle to guard the headquarters, when Mathiu ordered an attack, he always took all of the troops away from the Toran Lake Fortress, even if the battle took place far away. For example, when the Liberation Army attacked the Northern Checkpoint, the Toran Lake Fortress would have been defenseless against any attack lead by Sonya Shulen, Ain Gide, Yuber, or even Barbarossa. Because the Northern Checkpoint is at least one week away, if the Scarlet Moon Empire attacked (and spies knew Mathiu was leading a "training battle" near the Northern Checkpoint), they would have easily taken the headquarters, forcing the Toran Liberation Army to be stranded. This shows a total lack of strategy on Mathiu's part. It's only total luck as well as the total stupidity of his enemies that allowed him to succeed. This can only mean that Mathiu is second-rate.

Or it could mean that Mathiu is actually first-rate. He knew that the enemy had no strategist on their side. So it was plausible for him to attack without bothering about defense, because Gate Rune War was more like "Liberation Army attacking SME" with the SME always on defensive mode and never attacked. With no strategist on SME's side, the smaller number of army in Liberation Army's side, why not go for broke? That could be the only chance of winning the war. Had they left people for defense, they might not have enough number of soldiers to compete against SME.

Quote:
4) Mathiu is an Unscrupulous Deserter
A strategist is a professional committed to their task to conduct military planning, even if the plans go against personal ideologies. During the Jowstone-Scarlet Moon Wars, Mathiu left the military after the Kalekka Incident, which was just when the war was starting to get more furious due to the raised morale. Mathiu besically left when he was most needed in order to bring the war to a swift end. Instead, he let his personal feelings get in the way. This makes him unprofessional, and thus a second-rate strategist

The Kalekka Incident was Leon's idea which means that Leon was there as well. Mathiu leaving the army might have little to no effect because Leon was still there to be the strategist.

If being unprofessional is the case, then the same could be applied to Klaus who blatantly joined the opponent, to Leon who basically give information that led to Luca's death (though Leon worked for Jowy, Jowy worked for Luca, which technically means that Leon worked for Luca as well), and to Shu for lying numerous times.

Quote:
5) Mathiu was the Indirect Cause of the Dunan Unification War
During the battle for Moravia, Mathiu invites Jowstone forces to attack Moravia as a way to make Kasim Hazil surrender. This resulted in Tinto and South Window forces occupying the Senan Area for 2 years. Mathiu dies after doing this (irresponsibly), which forces the newly established and yet unstable Toran Republic to fight another war just after they were done with one.

The Toran-Jowstone war lasts for a year, and Toran managed to defeat the Jowstone forces, but this defeat results in a lasting rift to form between Tinto and Southwindow. The rift grows to the point of causing disruptions within the unity of the Jowstone Alliance, which in turn invited increased military aggression by the Highland Kingdom.

This shows how reckless and uncalculated Mathiu's original strategy was. He would obviously have been unable to know the full scope of what his actions will cause. However, allowing a foreign nation to attack your own land just so you can get a temporary upper hand. He should have been able to see how much chaos this would cause for the fledgeling government. This suprising lack of forethought and lack of consideration for the future illustrates how Mathiu is indeed second-rate

I think he was aware of the possibility of Jowston attacking Toran. But at that moment, it was needed to make Kasim surrender. Without Jowston's help, Kasim wouldn't surrender. Mathiu didn't plan to die, so he could be thinking that after winning Gate Rune War, he would be there to help Toran defeating Jowston. But unfortunately he died, and him being dead isn't something calculatable (is that a word?) because we don't know when or how we'd die.

Quote:
Based on this overwhelming evidence, Mathiu can not possibly be a good strategist.

But according to your own deontological method in the quote below:

Quote:
My method of judgeing whether someone is effective or not is strictly deontological--did the person fulfill their duty as defined by their position?

It proves that Mathiu is an effective (hence, a good strategist) because Mathiu (as the strategist of Liberation Army) fulfiled his duty as a strategist into leading the Liberation Army to win the Gate Rune War.
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