The origin of Shu

[Azn Shado99]

I agree with the majority, Shu comes from the Chinese Philosophy.

[Jillia Blight]

If you look at Suikoden II as a whole, it can actually be seen as referencing the Romance of the Three Kingdoms story at multiple points, with Riou and the Dunan Unification Front representing the Shu, and post-Luca Highland representing Wei. Here's a couple of examples (I apologize if this runs a little long, if you don't want to read it, just skip to my last paragraph, heh).

1) Luca Blight himself is quite a beast, and I'm sure is a reference in some ways to Lu Bu, widely hailed as one of the most powerful warriors in all of history. Their deaths are also quite similar. Both took hundreds of men and several volleys of arrows to take down, and even when they were cornered, both were too furious (or arrogant/psychotic) to surrender, and had to be executed (although Lu Bu originally pleaded for his life before going berserk, while Luca was uncontrollable up until his last breath). Even their names are similar in some ways.

2) Liu Bei and Cao Cao were at one point friends, but ideological differences led them into conflict many times until they became full-blown enemies. Liu Bei led a path of virtue, while Cao Cao believed that uniting under one rule no matter what the cost was the way to go. Very similar to Riou and Joei.

3) As mentioned earlier, Riou's journey to Radat in order to recruit Shu in many ways parallels Liu Bei's journey to recruit Zhuge Liang. I won't go further into this one, as it's already been explained.

4) Fire attacks in RoTK are VERY common, and in Suikoden, the Fire Spears represent this. Whenever things aren't going well in RoTK, the generals usually pull out a fire attack, just as Fire Spears are primarily used in order to turn the tide of battles.

5) Liu Bei loses his sworn brother, Guan Yu, due to the betrayal of an undecided third party (in his case, Lu Meng and Lu Xun of Wu, in ours, Gorudo of Matilda) during treaty negotiations. While this is handled differently in RoTK (Liu Bei goes berserk and leads a widely unapproved attack on Wu, leading to his own death as well as the beginning of Shu's collapse, while Riou is kept stable by Shu and Flik so as not to make any stupid decisions), the feeling in it is quite similar.

There are a few other smaller references, but these are the biggest ones. Now, getting back to the topic of Shu, I think his name is probably based on Zhuge Liang's ties to Shu, but in personality and design, Shu is a lot more like Zhou Yu. Zhuge Liang was arrogant and foolish at times, while Zhou Yu was quick to admit his own faults as soon as Zhuge Liang entered the scene. Zhou Yu also created the winning tactics at the Battle of Chi Bi, which basically saved China from Cao Cao, while Zhuge Liang was more of a politician who strategized when he had to. Really, it seems that Mathiu is more like Zhuge Liang in terms of his strategies used, while Shu is more like Zhou Yu (the two are also prettyboy-types). But his name is probably based on the Chinese aspects, both the Power word and Zhuge Liang.

[Vextor]

Actually, Murayama has specifically stated that Luca Blight isn't based on Lu Bu, but instead on a general from a few hundred years before Lu Bu's time--Chiang Yu the Bawang (Conqueror King). Chiang Yu helped overthrow the Chin dynasty around 200 bc along with Liu Bang (Liu Bei's distant ancestor). However, after overthrowing Chin, Chiang Yu and Liu Bang fought against each other.

Chiang Yu was a known as a general who was both unsurpassed in personal combat skills as well as his ability to command troops (Lu Bu was never known for his ability as a general). He never lost a battle until the the very end of his life. In one battle, Chiang Yu's force of 20000 defeated Liu Bang's 570000. Liu Bang kept losing, but due to his charisma, he kept attracting generals and strategists to join his camp. Chiang Yu was skilled, but he was also arrogant and didn't trust his generals. This led to his best generals defecting to Liu Bang. Eventually, Chiang Yu is completely surrounded and outnumbered, and he committed suicide rather than let enemies take his life.

Murayama states that he took two aspects of Chiang Yu's personality--his ruthless side and his softer side (that he showed towards consort Wu), and separated it into Luca Blight and Jowy Atreides.

Lu Bu has become a lot more popular these days due to the Dynasty Warriors series, and he's given a lot more credit than he deserves (and a lot of his trimumphs are fictional), so I have seen people make the same comparison before.

However, it is true that Shu is based on Zhuge Liang. Murayama states that he was thinking of Zhuge Liang when thinking of a strategist for Suikoden 2, so the image comes from there. However, the whole concept of having to go through some effort to recruit a strategist is also present in Suikoden 1 as well as 4, so it isn't something particularly unique to Suikoden 2.

I've also never heard anyone say that Zhou Yu is less arrogant than Zhuge Liang. I usually hear the total opposite, because Zhou Yu was fierecely jealous of Zhuge Liang for a majority of his life as a strategist for Wu, and actually died due to a letter from Zhuge Liang that infuriated him to the point of worsening his illness.

Also, the name "Shu" is an English romanization of the original Chinese word for the particular kingdom ruled by Liu Bei and Liu Chan. The same word is pronoucned as "Shoku" in Japan, so "Shu" coming from that particular kingdom is unlikely. An analogy would be expecting Japanese people to call Kamikaze pilots by their transliterated English equivalent (Divine Wind), which would be "Debain Uindo Pairotto."

Shu is actually a moderately common name for Japanese males, so it's not particularly strange for a guy to have that name in a Japanese RPG.

[Jillia Blight]

You have a good point there. I did remember reading somewhere (perhaps even here) about the Chiang Yu thing. Sadly, Chiang Yu is a lot less well-known nowadays, especially in Western countries. Even I forgot about him, heh. It is very easy to make the Lu Bu connection, though. Really, it just seemed to me that Luca's DEATH SCENE was inspired by Lu Bu's death at Xia Pi, due to the way it was handled, and his refusal to surrender was quite like Lu Bu. The primary difference is that Lu Bu turned coward when he was captured, and attempted to try and rejoin Cao Cao. He was executed because he lunged at Liu Bei for insulting him. Similarly, Luca was killed because despite being cornered and absolutely outnumbered, he still tried to attack Riou. It just seems like Lu Bu rather than Chiang Yu, who seemed to be a bit more honorable compared to the raging beast that was Lu Bu, although both of them met similar ends (angering their own generals enough to force a complete turnaround that led to their deaths).

As for Zhou Yu, a lot of that aspect of his personality is romanticized by Luo Guan Zhong's MASSIVE bias towards the Shu. According to most historical texts that AREN'T the Romance of the Three Kingdoms novel, while Zhou Yu WAS somewhat jealous of Zhuge Liang's early successes, he managed to operate relatively solidly until his death shortly after Chi Bi, the battle where Zhou Yu and the Wu forces crushed Cao Cao, with aid from a few Shu generals (contrary to popular belief, Zhuge Liang was barely involved). History actually shows that Zhou Yu has a much higher success rating than Zhuge Liang, who, as he grew older, began to grow arrogant and his strategies eventually began to falter. Zhou Yu's death was also dramaticized in the novel, trying to portray him as an antagonist to Zhuge Liang, who Guanzhong fiercely worshipped. Yu actually died of complications of an arrow wound that led to illness, possibly tetanus or a very bad infection. But the Zhuge Liang reference does make quite a bit of sense, especially since Maruyama confirmed it. I think I just like Zhou Yu more than Zhuge Liang, so it was easier for me to make that connection, especially since Shu looks a little bit like Zhou Yu.

[Leb]

[Jillia Blight]

[Leb]

[Shrew]

Uh... I have to agree with Leb here. I don't see many similarities between Luca's death and Xia Pi. True, they were both betrayed, but in very different circumstances. Lu Bu was trapped in Xia Pi; Luca was out destroying the Dunan Army. Luca died in an insane blaze of glory, taking out several soldiers; Lu Bu died in a whimper.

Lu Bu didn't even fight back. The whole scene with him attacking Liu Bei is from the novel, not history. If you don't like the novel's portrayal of Zhou Yu, you probably shouldn't use it's portrayal of Lu Bu. (Zhou Yu does die of his arrow wound in the novel, by the way. He's just aggravated by Zhuge.) History suggests that he insulted Liu Bei, but that action didn't doom him to death.

Luca dies of wounds from battle, that's why it's not an execution. He tried to kill Riou and failed. That's not being executed. Lu Bu was dragged off in bonds and beheaded. That's an execution.
_________________


Fear our Vagueness.

[gari]

What is the book called where all this is written about 3kingdoms, can I download it somewhere?
_________________
i lift the vaguelord but i didnt lift the coooooter

[Leb]

Not really related to the topic at hand, but the book is called "Romance of the Three Kingdoms". It's a book based on history that's been added a fictional twist when turned into a novel (hence the "Romance" part of the name). While I would suggest find a translated copy of the book, there are eBook forms of it. I'll try to find one for you.

EDIT: Here we are.

[gari]

Are you saying it isn't accurate?
_________________
i lift the vaguelord but i didnt lift the coooooter

[Leb]

The outcome of the events are almost exactly the same, but the dialogue and character interaction is simply speculation (or to make for a more interesting read). The book was written after the Three Kingdoms period, so it's obviously not going to be 100% accurate.

[PirateSigurd]

What? I thought this met where Shu came from? like what part of the Suiko world, but yeah Shu is definetly a Chinese name.
_________________
" I am one who wanders a million worlds, and one who watches this world's fate from afar " -Fog Ship Guide

"The Blood of the sea flows through my veins, I return to it now to be reborn" Troy

[wbfbnumero90]

according to SARSadmin in his FAQ, shu was modeled after Zhuge Liang, however it was not every aspect of Zhuge Liang that shu was modeled after, just the "general feel"

check out the FAQ for more

[Vextor]

Shu is a common Japanese name for males. It isn't a common name for males in China though (although it is a placename).