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Yvl

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2006 11:51 pm    Post subject: War Triangle... Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I don't think we've seen this happen yet, which is surprising. So far it's been almost entirely one side vs another side. Suikoden 3 could be an exception, but all of that mess was to one side's benefit anyway. What do you think, could Hero 6 fend off a fight on two seperate fronts?
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ryanwh




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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 12:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I wouldnt see the intrigue unless we were, at least initially, playing as characters on at least two sides of the triangle. If we were only playing one side, it'd still be essentially "us vs them" since the conflicts the other nations have amoungst each other would merely be story progression. That said, I love the idea of playing on two sides opposed to one another in addition to opposing a third side.
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Yvl

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 12:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I would love to see just two nations fighting, then suddenly a third invades you and you have to divide your lines. I would like to see how your strategist handles that. You also could choose which of those nations to focus your efforts on, etc.
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Malt Hitman

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 12:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Fending off two separate armies on the same front would be a lot different then fending off two separate armies on two separate fronts. From what I remember of the little that I played though in Suikoden III and Suikoden V all of the troop movement and allocation was predetermined by the combination of the computer AI and storyline. It setup your troops for you and decided what you had access to. If you really wanted to have a challenge in a two front war then you should have some input in how your troops are spread on the two fronts and who's allocated to which front. If the AI and storyline handles all of the work then you're just going to end up fighting more battles to get the same results.

It would be interesting if they would have a true two front situation in a game but put some creativity into it. If it was just an "us against them" that would be pretty dull. A series of making and breaking alliances would boost my interesting in the game. It would get even better if the final decision for alliances would be left up to the player. That way you could decide if you wanted it to be two on one in favor, one on two against, or even one on one on one until only one was left standing. It would involve a combination of diplomacy and treachery to pull off correctly and could get pretty involved. If you could assemble the stars that you aren't always using and send them around on little mini-missions to make or break alliances that would up the usefulness of those dead weights that most people feel they're lugging around with them. It's a huge project but it would be a blast to go though.
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ryanwh




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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 4:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

A one on one on one from a reality standpoint is just stupid and silly. The idea that any given army would interfere with a battle between two bitter enemies is ludicris. They'd relish in it, wait until a side was routed, then finish off the winning side at their weakest. The only posible way I could see that happening was a political que that went wrong, like an alliance one of the allience members planned on not keeping, but a strategist for the other side of said alliance forsaw such treachery, and made sure that the traitor side wouldnt be able to bail leaving their former ally to fend off the enemy alone by tipping off the enemy with an informant that half of the army planned on breaking off. Hence the invader of the allies would flank the area the fake ally planned on fleeing to, then all 3 could have it out. But just all three deciding to fight each other one day at the same time, never ever happen ever. There are levels of hatred, and in such a situation it'd be in the best interest of the two states that hate each other the least to band together to take out the one they hate most(then of course turn on each other again when deciding how to divide the new territory). That's why I think 2 opposing sides, each with a main playable character, could work. I'd love the idea of the two protagonists fighting each other half the game, then united(though still hating each other) for the latter half.
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John Layfield

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 4:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Actually, Vandal Hearts II did a great job of potraying the politics behind a war between three oppossing sides.

I think it could well be doable.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

To tell the truth, i would love the game to have a war triangle as this could add to the game depth story wise and all.A bit off topic but thats partially why i had my RP board suikoden:Destiny around that point.Back to the topic that would be very intresting and would really show the skills of the tactician im guessing silverbergs are needed here. :P
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dark-knight

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:

im guessing silverbergs are needed here

ot question:
are silverbergs the only family in the whole suikoden world who knows how to be a good strategist/tactician? why do people always say that? is it because their the only strategist family introduced in the series? cant the developers introduce someone new?

on topic:
a war tirangle may work. seeing as while the other 2 opposing faction are also at war with one another. hey how bout at first, the hero is a member of one side of two opposing teams/factions/whatever then the hero realizes that there's something wrong with what his/her team is fighting for but still cant grasp what the other side is also fighting for. the hero then decides to break off from his/her group and makes his own army to stop the other 2 (which are still at war)

i dont know if you guys got what im trying to say there^. ahaha. anyway, thats what came to my mind about the topic.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

First off, this Triangle War thing is fun.

You had something like it in S3, right? The tribes were fighting, then all of a sudden Luc shows up, although they do ally in the end to defeat Luc.

However, I believe that if this is done right, they can do it. Since you have two enemies, you'll obviously need to have Two Final Parties. And you'd also have two final wars, so your forces are divided in two. And obviously, you'd have Two final Bosses as well, though it'd be cool as well to have one person with a True Rune lead each party (Or at the very least, a Rune with an interaction similar to that of the Twilight Rune and the Dawn Rune.)

Also, say if you were attacking one group, the other group with attack your base simultaneously. Tihs could have an effect on war. You'd be timed to do it, etc. Plus, this would add more storylines. You could also be given the option to choose which one to take out first.

And yes, they should introduce new strategist families. Personally, I want to see less Silverbergs, more Lucretia-like characters. Silverbergs take so much outof strategists. It's like, before every game you'd go like "Oh my, this game has a Silverberg again.", Good thing Lucretia sowed up to break the Curse of the Silverbergs. Hopefully that curse is shut down in the future as well.
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dark-knight

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:

Also, say if you were attacking one group, the other group with attack your base simultaneously. Tihs could have an effect on war. You'd be timed to do it, etc. Plus, this would add more storylines. You could also be given the option to choose which one to take out first.

one of the things that came to my mind too. you can also do this to one of the enemies if this is the type of story like the hero's army infiltrating one faction while theyre busy fighting the other(though it may seem more cowardly for the hero or maybe a rescue mission perhaps)
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RedCydranth

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I wouldn't call the Silverburgs a curse. In Suikoden III, Caesar was hardly a mastermind, and neither was Apple.Arguable, Albert is a good strategist, but we haven't seen altogether that much from him. Technically, who couldn't do what he did in Suikoden III if you had Sarah's magic, Luc's power and Yuber at your disposal. I mean come on? The only dominant Silverberg strategists really were Mathiu and Elenor. Leon to some extent, but his strategy was defeated in Suikoden II by a non-Silverberg, Shu. As it stands, the two most popular strategists in the series (from my experiences on Suikoden forums) aren't Silverburgs at all, but are Shu and Lucretia. Besides, for the first few games, they included Silverburgs because they had name continuity. If there was a non-Silverberg strategist in any given game, you'd have cared less about him. You related Shu to Mathiu because he was his student. You related to Caesar and Albert because they were related to Leon. Its the same with Fred, Rico, Gary, Ema, Isabel and Mathias. We like them because we can relate them to Maximillian and to some extent Sancho, but more Max. There's a lot of outcry for more Viktor and Flik, or Yuber and Pesmerga's battle but yet some of you claim to tire of seeing the same family name of Silverburgs. You can't have both folks. Either you want name reckognition or not. Granted Lucretia was a nice alternative to the Silverberg name, I doub't we'll see anything but a Silverberg in our next installment.

On to the topic at hand. The triangle war thing has been done to some extent. The trinity sight system of Suikoden III led us into the fray between Grassland tribes and the Zexeners. They had been fighting when Luc and the Harmonian offensive came storming in while they were fighting. It wasn't until Luc's plan was exposed that Sasarai and Dios of Harmonia realized the whole invasion was a ploy by Luc to destroy the 5 True Elemental Runes and joined up with the Grasslands and Zexen to defeat him. I think that game was well made but its highly unpopular due to its lack of a solid tenkai. Sure Thomas is the technical Tenkai, but in all reality you control him for only a short time in comparison to the other three main characters.

Also, spoiler alert here, In Suikoden V, while the Prince's forces were facing the Godwins for control of Falena, New Armes were more than happy to invade in on the Prince's territory. Yes, it was in response to the Godwins asking them to do so, but I am pretty sure that if all had gone to plan and the Prince's faction was destroyed, Maha Sparna and Jidan Guisu would have severed their friendly ties with Godwin and continued their assault on Falena, trying to claim as much of it as they could. Not quite the triange war you all are speaking of, but its a third party interfering on a 1 on 1 war nonetheless.

I would not mind seeing the triangle war described here in this thread, but it would have to be done correctly. It can't be left too open with choices or else there will be so many missed characters in the 108 needed for the best ending. Let's say for fun here, we'll use Jowston Highland and Tinto all attacking eachother. If the tenkai is in Jowston and he can schoose to side with either Highland or Tinto, the game would have to deviate from that point on, and you'd get various stars depending on your choices. For example if the Tenkai chooses Highland, he can befriend an older grown up Millie and Tomo whereas if you pick Tinto you'd get an older Lilly and Samus. Would they each share similar stars (like Valeria/Kasumi/Tomo or Sigfried, Abizboah or Feather of Suikoden II) or would you require two plays through to gather the 108 stars?

Do you see where I'm going with this? The acquisition of stars is linear in Suikoden because there has to be a way to get all 108 stars of destiny to acheive the proper ending. If you break this linear mold you risk the 108 stars thing, and that is the basis of Suikoden.

I think Suikoden III did the triangle war thing as best as it is going to be done because it was a set path, but yet you felt like you were thrust inside an epic three sided conflict. You grew to hate Harmonia only to learn it wasn't their fault, but Luc and Sarah's. And then you probably placed Sasarai in your party and trounced enemies with his True Earth Rune, forgiving him and Harmonia.
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ryanwh




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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

dark-knight wrote:

a war tirangle may work. seeing as while the other 2 opposing faction are also at war with one another. hey how bout at first, the hero is a member of one side of two opposing teams/factions/whatever then the hero realizes that there's something wrong with what his/her team is fighting for but still cant grasp what the other side is also fighting for. the hero then decides to break off from his/her group and makes his own army to stop the other 2 (which are still at war)

i dont know if you guys got what im trying to say there^. ahaha. anyway, thats what came to my mind about the topic.

This sounds a LOT like Romance of the 3 Kingdoms in a way. In that respect, considering how much suikoden "borrows" from China's big 4 novels, I cant believe a war triangle HASNT been done yet.
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dark-knight

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

ryanwh wrote:
dark-knight wrote:

a war tirangle may work. seeing as while the other 2 opposing faction are also at war with one another. hey how bout at first, the hero is a member of one side of two opposing teams/factions/whatever then the hero realizes that there's something wrong with what his/her team is fighting for but still cant grasp what the other side is also fighting for. the hero then decides to break off from his/her group and makes his own army to stop the other 2 (which are still at war)

i dont know if you guys got what im trying to say there^. ahaha. anyway, thats what came to my mind about the topic.

This sounds a LOT like Romance of the 3 Kingdoms in a way. In that respect, considering how much suikoden "borrows" from China's big 4 novels, I cant believe a war triangle HASNT been done yet.


oh it does? i really dont know because ive never read that novel and have not yet played that game for the ps2 (iirc, theres a game Romance of the 3 Kingdoms for the ps2, right?)
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Yeh I'm suprised myself that there hasn't been a war triangle myself, in reference to the 3 kingdoms use.

I'd be interested in it if was more than an us vs them just in several places sort of thing. If you have to divide the army to deal with more than one enemy it always gives you the chance to use more of your characters.

It could also give support to a second main character, since the main character wouldn't be able to lead off both stands at the same time. It could be interesting to play with anyhow ^^
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 1:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

RedCydranth wrote:
I wouldn't call the Silverburgs a curse. In Suikoden III, Caesar was hardly a mastermind, and neither was Apple.Arguable, Albert is a good strategist, but we haven't seen altogether that much from him. Technically, who couldn't do what he did in Suikoden III if you had Sarah's magic, Luc's power and Yuber at your disposal. I mean come on? The only dominant Silverberg strategists really were Mathiu and Elenor. Leon to some extent, but his strategy was defeated in Suikoden II by a non-Silverberg, Shu. As it stands, the two most popular strategists in the series (from my experiences on Suikoden forums) aren't Silverburgs at all, but are Shu and Lucretia.


I would imagine Leon to be a strategist better than Elenor and Mathiu. Jowy refuesed to follow through with Leon's strategy during Suikoden two, thus causing him to "seemingly" be outdone by Shu. Shu just got lucky. If Jowy had followed what Leon suggested, the war would have been over much faster with a Highland victory. But seemingly, the Mantra of the Silverberg name has been ending the war with as little bloodshed as possible. Not from your side, but from both sides. I don't know... it just seems to me that if there was a Silverberg in Felena(who knew the area), they'd done quite a deal better doing the strategy than Lucretia.... but i'm biased.

As for the topic at hand...

While a one on one on one war seems intruiging and may actually involve a good deal of strategy; there hasn't ever been such a war recorded on earth. Even the Three Kingdoms war(which started and ended one on one on one) was marred with alliances aplenty designed to try to give one kingdom the upper hand.

I'm reminded of what happened during the Toran Liberation... A message was sent to Dunan informing them of Barbarossa's intention to invade, so Dunan preempted the effort and wiped out a good portion of Barbarossa's army for you during the war. From your aspect, Dunan just helped you(since you're not going to do anything about it now)... But from Barbarossa's side, it is almost like a triangle war situation. Dunan itself may feel as though it's a 1on1 situation, due to not paying attention or caring of the internal politics within Toran at the time.

While the aspect and idea are good ones, and i would hope that such a thing could happen... the implementation of the idea would be dreadfully painful, as nearly every war(involving 3 or more countries) one can think of, regardless of how it started or ended, had aspects of alliances involved.

As much as i'd like to see it, the likelyhood of it happening is slim to none.... imo.
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