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Tenkai's background. Definite aristocracy?
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Ninjar

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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2006 9:20 pm    Post subject: Tenkai's background. Definite aristocracy? Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

It does seem likely since all the Tenkais and Tenkai-like characters are from aristocratic backgrounds.

1) Tir is the son of one of the six Great Generals.
2) Riou is the adopted son of a war hero.
3) Thomas is the son of one of the members of the Zexen Council.
4) Lazlo is the supposed son of Lino En Kuldes and even if not that, he lived with the Mayor of Razril for a long time.
5) Faroush is a Prince.

Even if you count the other 3 from Suikoden III:

1) Chris is the daughter of a reknowned knight and Captain of the knights herself.
2)Hugo is the son of the Karayan Clan Chief and is in line to inherit that title.
3) Geddoe...I dunno. He was a prominent member of the First Fire Bringer Conflict and seems to hold quite a bit of sway with those who know him from that era. Also there is the fact that his position in his mercenary squad would have been King with all the other positions factored in. Just kidding. I don't think he was a king :P

This leads me to wonder whether there will ever be anyone who was not of a certain distinction that occupies the position of Tenkai in any of the games.

I am curious as to what others think of this.
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Cedric

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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2006 11:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Eventually, I think we'll get off the aristocracy background. But I understand why they were given that characteristic. I really doubt that most Stars of Destiny will just follow everyone. Battle experience and smarts are one thing, but most people want to follow a leader. She was great at military tactics, but even he admitted that he could never be a leader among men. He didn't seem like the type to have much hope instilled within him.

And while you can be a great leader and not have a famous name (technically, Lazlo did not use his lineage to lead the Islander Armada), I think it's easier from a plot-line perspective to explain why people follow Tir McDohl, or why people follow the Prince, or why people live in Thomas' castle.

But I'm sure they will always be young heroes. Seeing a young person lead an army must act like some sort of energy boost. That's the way I see it, anyway.
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Rainrir

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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2006 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Heh..this might lead to class warfare...

Must say that Tir and Lazlo didn't really used their lineage much...Lazlo was kind-of unaware of his roots while Tir is actually fighting against it. Thomas got nothing out of his lienage other then inheriting Burhedec Castle...I feel that their origins (as in their parents are nobility/royalty) is rather irrelevant to whether they can get people to fight for them.

He IS the son of Teo McDohl, General Extraordinaire of the Empire Tir is FIGHTING AGAINST. I believe in that case there is even more reason to NOT trust Tir then to trust him. His lineage is a liability in the case of S1.

Thomas in my opinion, is also fighting against his lineage to achieve what he wanted to achieve: A place where all people, regardless of race, can live and prosper together. He is the bastard son of a Zexen Nobleman who was also involved in the conspiracy to sell Zexen out to Harmonia. Given this background, both the Grasslands tribes and the Zexen knights have a definate reason to doubt his intent.

Riou is the adpoted son of the hero-in-exile (or was it hero-in-exile-and-dead?) I guess Shu did use that (along with the Bright Shield Rune) to get people to fight for Riou. Of Course, Frash is the most....exploitive of his royalty/noble status....

Lazlo is the closest thing to someone that started leading a war effort from much nowhere. I am pretty sure that the later generation attribute the Island Nation-Koolok conflict's leader was Lino rather then Lazlo. Still, neither he nor his followers have any knowledge that he is actually the PRINCE of Obel...Hence, I feel that in Lazlo's case his background plays next to not part in roping people in.

Then again, it must be those eyes they all share..heh heh..on to the Non-Tenkais....

As for Huge, the chief reason why people fight for him isn't so much so as his lineage (which probably can get the Karayans and Lizards and MAYBE the Ducks to action) but rather his inheritance of the Flame Champion title. That was the rallying cry everyone needs to fight for him, Zexen or otherwise...

Chris' lineage allowed her to get into the knights alright...but the only knight that swore an oath to her due to that (prioir to the final S3 battle) was Salome..who is a rather big Jimba/Wyatt fanboy. The others only fought for her AFTER she prove herself as their Silver Goddess on the battlefield when Galahad got schooled by some lizard. Ability in this case, plays a greater role then Lineage.

Geddoe, in my memory, is nothing more then a mercernary leader within the Second Fire Bringer Army. His orgins and role in the first Fire Bringer Army is unknown but it can be guessed that is combat and tactical prowess..COMBINED with the fact that he owns the True Lightning Rune is the reason why people fight for him/see him as a leader.
EVEN them, there are rather few people actually fighting FOR him...I remember only the 12th unit Mercernaries (and Dukes team...maybe) are the ones that fought for him explicitly...
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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2006 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Rainrir wrote:
Lazlo is the closest thing to someone that started leading a war effort from much nowhere. I am pretty sure that the later generation attribute the Island Nation-Kooluk conflict's leader was Lino rather then Lazlo. Still, neither he nor his followers have any knowledge that he is actually the PRINCE of Obel...Hence, I feel that in Lazlo's case his background plays next to not part in roping people in.

But Lazlo had the Golden Seal, a sign of a leader from the Kingdom of Obel, which kinda makes him a King in the eyes of others, although he really isn't.

And I think people in the later generation recognize Lazlo because I think it was Nellis or Bernadette who makes a comment in the comment box of a man who wielded the Rune of Punishment and lead the Island Nation Army. Then again, Lino did the work afterwards, and Lazlo just went missing in action, so that's why Lino might get more recognition than Lazlo.
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Vertius

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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2006 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

After all the characters you've gone through, how can we forget about Nash?

Nash was from a 1st Class Harmonian family, so he was from a noble background. Of course, as we all know, he never used it to his advantage. On the contrary, he tried to conceal it, in Suikoden III, at least.

True, he isn't a Tenkai, and he doesn't lead an army, but he's a main character for the Gaidens, so it's probably enough.
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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2006 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Well, I'd argue based on the definition of "artsiocrat." An aristocrat must be a member of the aristocracy--a small group of people with governing power. In the case of Tir, although he was the son of Teo McDohl, Teo McDohl himself had very little of any political power. He was basically a soldier at the mercy of Barbarossa's command. In that sense, Tir McDohl isn't really a member of quality.

Riou is out of question.

Thomas is debatable, because his father is a powerful politician. However, because Thomas was disowned, and because he grew up without knowing his father, he is not a true aristocrat.

In the case of Lazlo, the same argument as Thomas applies because he grew up unaware of his lineage, and he may never actually be aware of this at all.

In the case of the Prince of Falena, well, you can't dispute that he is aristocracy! He is the blasted prince after all!
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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2006 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I doubt It, it's easier to make someone with a "memorable" past a hero, than a newcomer.
I would love to see a bum become the ruler of a country because of a series of unfortunate (or furtunate to him/her, hehe) events, but let's face it; Suikoden Is all about great deeds, uniting nations, big wars and such.
People tend to think that if someone is a prince, or comes from an aristocratic background he/she knows more about war, and so on.
It's easier to picture a prince as a future ruler (obvious, actually) than a bum laying in front of a restaurant begging for food , yes Im talking to you Rikimaru.
Im not saying that's always true, but it's the way things are.

To sum up:
Commoners have no need to fiddle with such affairs.
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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2006 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

From a story arc perspective and from the recruiting/castle perspective it makes things easier to have this kind of main character. Its simple, a man from somehwat modest(as in, definetly not the top teir) nobility falls from grace, is exiled is some form or another, and the combination of his former nobility and his "charisma"(?) is what brings all those people to his cause to strike back. It'd be a lot harder to convince hundreds of people, many often more qualified and more decorated leaders, to follow someone with zero nobility in his ancestry. At least, it would be in feudal China/Japan where those things are very important and relevent to the quality of a human being.
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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2006 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Oh... wait... Riou was adopted wasn't he?

I feel a speculation coming on!
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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2006 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

His true father was of higher nobility then Teo, no?
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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2006 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Yeah, like everyone's mentioned, building armies helps when you have an established name. It's not neccesarily aristocracy, but each character does have an existing history through their name or lineage they can tap into.

But really, this is pretty unique to Suikoden. Most RPG heros tend to be commoners or nobodies who find a magic item/prove their worth and then its revealed they are chosen to save the world from darkness. Often you'll have a Prince or a Princess as a side character, but Suikoden's one of the few games I've seen that puts the influence in the main character.

Except for Lazlo. Because Lazlo is really the most traditional RPG hero, from everything to his background, his actions, and weapons.
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Geddoe

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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2006 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Rainrir wrote:
Geddoe, in my memory, is nothing more then a mercernary leader within the Second Fire Bringer Army. His orgins and role in the first Fire Bringer Army is unknown but it can be guessed that is combat and tactical prowess..COMBINED with the fact that he owns the True Lightning Rune is the reason why people fight for him/see him as a leader.


True, those things would make him a good leader - his combat awareness, tactical prowess, and the True Lightning Rune.

But please keep in mind that he didn't need the True Lightning Rune at all for people to either follow him or listen to his words. Not in the early going. I would easily put Geddoe in the category of most normal person to be in a position of leadership in the Suikoden series - we don't know about his background before we meet him in Suikoden III outside of the fact that what he got out of it was a True Lightning Rune [although my theories on that say he got it during the First Fire Bringer War]. In my opinion, while playing Suikoden III, Geddoe was the most 'Everyman' character between Chris [daughter of Wyatt, our friendly neighborhood True Water Rune holder] and Hugo [stereotypical relation of someone great that finds himself in position to change the world, much like Tir, and Riou, and Lazlo, and Prince from V]. He's just a guy running a Mercenary Unit who, even unbeknownst to the people he works most closely with, has a True Lightning Rune. The only person in that bunch that knew about his Rune was Joker, which means he lead those people without the reason of the Rune for a long time. It's for that reason that I believe that Geddoe could have lead people regardless of having the Rune or not.

Really good topic, and I'm glad I could share my opinion.
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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2006 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Geddoe had the True Lightning Rune before the First Fire Bringer War if memory serves me right.
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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2006 11:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

It was never really established that Geddoe got the Rune before the First Fire Bringer War...I think that he and Wyatt got theirs somewhere during that conflict, and not before.


Now, on SARS' point about Teo, being not a noble and all...

Well, he is a soldier of Babarossa and all. However, his position in the court of the Scarlet Moon Empire can be equated to that of a noble or at least a very respected general. If I am not mistaken, in ancient Rome veteran centurions are granted noble status at the end of their service too(if they live that long). It is not that far out to think that Babarossa would have given a title to Teo, his greatest general, after winning the Succession Conflict.

Noble or not, Tir inherits the name recognition of being Teo's son, for better or worst...

Similarly, while Genkaku isn't a noble...he is a famous hero of Jowstonians. Riou's association with that name is KIND OF like having an arsitocractic background...in terms of how it can affect people's opinion of you.
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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2006 12:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Actually now that you mention it, didn't Barbarossa give Teo his sword with the Sovereign Rune on it? That would to me make him significantly like nobility. Moving Tir closer to the seat of power than anyone except maybe Faroush.

Also, I used aristocracy due to lack of a better word. I couldn't really think of any word that would qualify everyone while still conveying my desired meaning.
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