more Morals smorals laws smaws!

[kuwaizair]

Because the "11 year old mommy" topic is being steered in this direction why not have the apparent free for all, all over the place dicusson on 'morality" yeh morality the big whiney you can't do that because I don't like it deal.

at a forum I'm banned at somone made one once after having an interting and eyeopening chat with an a-moralist apparenty said person thought his ideas were, in a sence right.

so because of my former topic, why not talk about "rules why rules, rules, morals and what not are dumb who are you to tell me whats right"

here are some things to think about.

1) drugz r bad...dunt do them dats why they illegal :D

sure ok, sounds fun. when will the open the opium bars again? sounds like a good thing to own, lots of money. why we're at it give kids some pot insted of milk and cookies

2) AoC

age of concent has to be the dumbest thing, if 10 year olds are having sex now adays, not only allow them to legaly have sex with eachother, let me have sex with a 14 year old, what are the perks? they might be a virgin and the'll be super cute

3) alcohol drinking age

ptth...come on, humans were ment to drink it, along with chocolate and onions we're pretty much one of the few things that its good for us, so let them drink at 3...Underage drinking is only a problem because its rebelius and they want to be like on TV, like drugs its only done because they can't. yeh lets get rid of that

4) Puppy luving

they say it, its true if the dog don't bite it likes it. I love my Borizoi and s/he loves me. love is love, age, species and sex or gender don't matter. why not legalize that. don't tell me my practice is wrong (FYI Kuu dosn't do that thing)

5) Pornography and realted


6) child labor. heck as long as they are treated nicly and get good pay its ok right? having kids make stuff will stop them from underage drinking...or would it help? "ug mommy I had a tuff day at werk I need some 'meddisen" children used to work on farms, thats why familys had huge families...more hands to work the farm. Little Billy would collect eggs, and Sammy 15 year old would clean horse stalls right? Sussie would help knit socks with mommy while awaiting her own child.


7) Slavery: sure it voilates human rights, but if culture one has slaves and treats them good and culture two has slaves and treats them poorly, should culture three judge both parties?

8) public sex: ueh..shouldn't I be able to either make out or give my lover some pleasure in like, the dressing room of Old navy or in the bathroom of the air plaine? like whos to say thats wrong...same with just using the dressing room for some self plesure. when you've got the itch scratch away. say its wrong say its sick? whos to say you have the right to judge me or anyone who thinks its not wrong. There are web sites that teach one how to make love on, lets say a public beach so no one will know it.

9) not lletting people have their way: ok by this I mean whiney people who want more bible games, or having more Beurger Kings because well...not letting them have what they need is excluding them, hurting them in some way thus its wrong. Is it wrong we have to many non fundimentalist Christain media, is it wrong not to let somone marry a 13 year old because they would back home, is it wrong to not let somone eat a dolphin in a country where its illegal? or should we roll our eyes at the complaning and mock. that would be wrong right?


10)ok, so what? its just sex on film, I think it shold be on day time TV, now that we legalized youth sex and said its not bad the'll know how to do things, now that said kid stuf is legal now child porn is ok. it will teach them good. and if they have "Mizzy cools sex tips" a show, like Scarlet Teen's site only with some how to segments. that would be ok I think. heck we need a sex ed TV show for 8-17 year olds.

11) if Marijuana were legal sould we let it be on smoking breaks? if kids could drink beer should they before school to..lossen up? what if we allowd them to drink at school? hey, we know now its better for you than milk. beer and cookie time?

ok so heres a small list of things deemed wrong. now what? should you say I'm wrong for being raciest? a theif? for beating up a baby because it won't stop crying? those are all "wrong", we're aniamls nothing more, we steal and commit "crims", animals steal food all the time, and eat their babies and kill...want to make it sound dumb why we have laws and 'don't do thats'? want me to club your shins and steal your Ipod? hey don't tell me its wrong, those are your morals.

its not wrong to hack into sites..its fun, lke a game, its like "guess the number" right?

who wants to debate? make a claim, destroy a claim...add more? come on 'whats wrong" and "what is right"? in your "Ideal" or "nation's law" any more ideas or subjects? fling them this way, morals or 'laws'? or are some laws moral and some morals law? whats good for me shuld be good for you. are they just and fair or just egocentric.

anway when it comes down to it, its money..people will need to pay for others mistakes and stupidity when it comes to stupid things right?
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few runes short of a set of 27

[nocturne1337]

last time i expressed my mind here SARS pmed me and said i was in big trouble even though the whole thread streered that way lol.


morals are wierd because society plays a direct effect on your beliefs.

like how in most places eating human flesh is bad but in some tribal communties its a very pure and spiritual things for them. They eat there loved ones and the loved ones live in their body forever! Thoguh a certain disease can kill people because of eating human flesh it still is viewed in a byast way by us westerners.

Food for thought: would there be a wrong without a right? :No and what is a right? The law some dirty politician made up?
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' and then it was like knocking 4 times on the door of unhapieness' excerpt from albert camus's The Stranger

[kuwaizair]

well eatting human flesh isn't the best, I think it gets you sick. Kind of like Mad Cow diseise.
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few runes short of a set of 27

[Ninjar]

1) Illegal Narcotics:

Drugs vary widely in effects at time of use and effects over a long period. Therefore, it would be foolish to simply clump them all together in a group. Marajuana and Crystal Meth are quite different. Much the same as Tobacco products and Marijuana are very disimilar. They may share common ailments that spawn from them, but in the end they stimulate the body in a much different way. Any drug that is counter-productive to society should be illegal. Saying that, legalization of drugs that are currently at the forefront would only add to the call for the legalization of more dangerous narcotics, therefore, at the moment, decriminalization would be in the best interest of whoever is making the decisions.

2) Age of Consent:

There are a few things that can be done with this. One thing that could be done is lowering it to include all high school ages. I'm sorry, but high schoolers seem to be getting, as a whole, more and more sexually active.

3) Age Limit for the Consumption and Purchasing of Alcohol:

To put it lightly, the current laws are effectively worthless, enforcing these laws does just about nothing, and I can get alcohol any time I want from my friend who uses a fake ID. These places don't give a damn if you are the person on it.

4) Bestiality:

I don't think that bestiality is illegal everywhere. Probably in just some of the more conservative places. I'm almost positive that it isn't illegal in the U.S. I can't really tell you for sure because I'm not really interested in such things.

5) Pornography et al:

Pornography is simply people having sex with each other. They don't really do any other stuff as far as plot goes. They try, but they really don't do well. However, if it was put onto daytime TV, I promise you that we would see some plot based porn. Much like the crap that is on now. If I wanted to watch people have sex, I would watch it on my computer where I can see all their little naughty bits, not on TV where it either has to be blurred or completely absent.


Really, if these things aren't hurting anyone, then why are they outlawed. It's like the whole gay marriage issue. Is gay marriage hurting any straight people? No? Then why is it illegal? You can't claim that it is because God said that homosexuality was wrong. Because technically, the government shouldn't really be taking anything from God.

[Arcana]

Many of these laws were created way back in a time of stricter morality. However, many of them are created in the name of public decency. One reason why we still have indecent exposure laws is to prevent massive voyeurism. It gives the cops a legal reason to arrest streakers and flashers on the street.

The age of consent laws exist in an attempt to prevent child pornography and child exploitation, which is quite a real problem; I posted a thread mentioning the vigilante justice of Mr. Stephen Marshall killing two known sex offenders. Most people were in agreement that sex offenders (while perhaps shouldn't be murdered in cold blood) executed generally reprehensible actions and most were not sorry to have seen them killed. If the age of consent is lowered, it makes it more difficult to prosecute people in a position of authority who might be sleeping with children. However, it should be noted that there are laws (at least in Canada) that permit that a minor have sex with someone else who is within two years of his or her own age. So if you're 13 and have sex with a 15 year old, no one can be charged with statuatory rape.

As for site hacking, as someone who employs their own site (and I'm sure that site administrators will agree with me), millions of dollars are invested in security measures online. Millions, and millions. You know Adware, Spyware, and all of that? Those are now commonly-accepted nuisances because they exploit holes in your computer; they're basically hacking. It's kind of like someone pasting up flyers on the window of your house so that, when you draw up the blinds, you see nothing but the flyers staring at you instead of the morning sun. In this case, they're creating a nuisance of themselves.

Damaging viruses and worms cost people dreadful amounts of money, though. We spend hundreds of millions of dollars securing web sites, writing secure software, and paying people to keep the software secure. Millions more go to people who need to maintain servers, watch log files, and kick intruders out. Very expensive hardware is devoted to firewalls and backup links and backup storage. This is all because a few people decided that it would be "fun" to hack into a site. Remember, not that long ago, http://suikox.com itself was hacked into, and the site was down for a period of about 30 hours or so until SARS could get it back up. Now, that's almost nothing. I mean, SARS is a recreational site and we don't care that much if the site goes down for two days or so, though we do get very upset. But imagine if this site was SARS's primary source of income? Imagine if he made advertising revenue for the site, and sold merchandise? If his site goes down for a day, that could mean thousands of dollars of lost revenue for him.

SARS is also the sole network administrator of the site, so if the site goes down, he spends at least an hour fixing stuff. He has to restore the backups, reload the site, test it, and then apply an upgrade patch to prevent further attacks. More than likely, this is not just an hour -- it's a few. If the site was hacked while SARS was on a business trip, it's highly probable that the site would have just entirely disappeared for a week. This is all because someone decided it is "cool" to be a vandal and execute a script that randomly searches out sites on a Google search engine and attacks them.

Site hacking is not cool. :(


Much of these laws are in place because they intend to protect public safety and reduce costs of damages. Stealing is illegal because it's expensive to have to tolerate thieves, and stealing makes people mad. This is why site hacking should be illegal as well. One cannot consume alcohol below the age of 18 (or 19, or 21, or 20, depending on where you live) because if a young person drinks too much, they are likely to hurt not only themselves, but others. They may not have the discipline and mental development to resist driving a car, or to prevent themselves from getting into a fight. Granted, the 18-year old might not either, but the number of people who drink irresponsibly at 18 is likely less than the number at 16. The same reasoning extends to recreational drug use, which can cause a loss of productivity and much illness among people.

The modern-day morals and laws are leaning more toward pragmatism instead of old-fashioned morality, but many of the laws that we have in place are still a good idea and don't stomp on our own rights that much. Many of these laws are simply in place to punish those who can not and do not respect others. If you can't maintain the decency not to steal another man's car, then by all means you deserve to be put in prison for a while.
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Woo, 2000 posts as of Tuesday, 2007 August 28.

[kuwaizair]

yeh ok, so we can almost all say theift is wrong. but back to the kids. heck "if it bleeds it breeds", I wonder how countries with low AoC's fair...like the one where it is 12. so what if it was 14? I could get a boyfriend easier bcause I don't need to go for 18+, I and many others. Plus some young girls are alredy seducing older men...why not make it not only legal, but an ok and beautyful thing to do? the love between a 14 year old girl and a 36 year old guy.

heck while we're there, not that its horrble but if we put polygamy in a good light, mixed with 'the kid thing' whos to say now its wrong for said guy to have 5 girlfriends/lovers who range from 14-21? noting wrong here. some countrys do it and are fine.
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few runes short of a set of 27

[Krawnik]

Kuu, I don't know if you're leading us on or what, but if you really want age of consent laws lowered so you can make a 14 year old boy your collar-wearing sex slave, you're pretty twisted. Age of consent laws are in place so that such a scenario won't unfold. Whether or not teenagers are physically capable of sexual intercourse does not dictate whether or not they shuold engage in it. There's a certain mental maturity not reached for years that dictates whether someone is 'ready' or has enough education to decide to begin engaging in sex. Or alcohol, or tobacco use, for that matter. The law deems, and rightly so, that kids under 18 aren't "ready" for whatever reason to engage in this activities.

Mind you, like Ninjar said, these laws are easy to get around. But then we get to see the nuances in the laws.

If two underage kiddies consent to sex, and partake, and walk away without regret, no one presses charges and everyone moves on. Even though a crime was technically commited, no one charges anyone. We can see that the laws are in place to keep adults from reaching for kids, even if the kids want to fool around with eachother. It's a weird system, but so far it seems to work.

Same with drinking. It's technically illegal to drink underage, but really, if you're on someone's private property, especially if you're indoors, you can do whatever you want. Cops don't knock on doors randomly to see if kids are inside drinking. The law against underage drinking is in place to prevent the sale of alcohol to minors, I think. The best-case-scenario is that kids cannot receive alcohol just by purchasing it off the shelf, but in one's own home, if an adult decides their underage kid is responsible enough to handle some sauce, they can administer as they please.

(Of course we all know this is a farce, but again, that's the law's purpose in theory, whether or not it is practical.)

As for bestiality and day-time pornography. That's just really freaky. I can't see any sane human being arguing in favour of legalizing bestiality, and putting pornography on TV for kiddies to watch is just rotten.

Personally I'm a big believer in personal responsibility. I believe that at a certain age (between 18 and your early 20s really) you are mentally mature enough to begin making important decisions without outsourcing your ethics to parents or authority figures. For example, even though I was raised Catholic and was taught not to have sex until marriage, I'm now old enough to decide for myself that I don't really believe that. It was helpful when I was young, being Catholic and following those rules kept me from making a lot of silly mistakes in my youth, but I think I'm agile enough mentally to decide for myself what is right and what is wrong.

I personally believe that the faculty to invent one's morality does not exist until between 18 and early 20s, however, or at least it is not very strong. It's why as a kid you listen to what your parents tell you, or your teachers or your church, but later on, you can decide for yourself what to do. As a kid you just don't have enough experience or education to make your own mind up to a higher degree, so listening to one's elders is important to make sure you, among other things, stay alive. Once you're old enough though, the decision is yours.

At least, that's what I believe. But I digress.
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416- friggin' racists, messing up my generalizations, also stealing my jobs, women.
RIP Ninjalicious

[kuwaizair]

[Krawnik]

For the kiddies who think they're old enough- they can think whatever they want, but that doesn't make them right. Looking back on myself in my early teens, I'm often embarassed by how stupid I used to be, and I'm very glad I at least had the foresight to not act recklessly. Just because you think you're ready doesn't mean you are, and the laws are in place to ensure that silly kids who think they know what they're getting into don't end up doing something they regret.

And for the birthday wine thing, like I said, if you're turning whatever age and your parents think it's alright for you to have a glass of wine or whatever, yeah, who are the feds to say you can't give them some? That said, most parents I know wouldn't give their kiddy alcohol until they're good and legal, so it's something of a moot point. Depends on the environment I guess.
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416- friggin' racists, messing up my generalizations, also stealing my jobs, women.
RIP Ninjalicious

[Ninjar]

I'll have a beer or two with my dad at times, but that really isn't anything big. It's not as though I'm getting drunk. It may be against the law, but his view is that if the government can send me off to die in a war, I should be able to have a few beers in the privacy of my own home. He really isn't for getting drunk and all that stuff though. He is more about the whole moderation thing. That would be what seperates the adults from the kids, those who know when to stop.

[Jorge Prima]

1) drugs

I have lots of friends that do drugs. Luckily I was taught from a good family never to do them. And lucky for them, I'm a good kid. To me drugs are a gateway of people trying to handle there problems in a form of neglatance.

2) AoC

I think that this, esspicially for movies, has good reason to exist. If it weren't for people telling us what age we good see stuff, old people would ruin the world, and dub everything as taboo

3) alcohol drinking age

To be honest, I think alcohol should be illgal, but I'm not going to say much on this, for the sake of me not being flamed.


4) Bestiality:

I don't think that bestiality is illegal everywhere. Probably in just some of the more conservative places. I'm almost positive that it isn't illegal in the U.S. I can't really tell you for sure because I'm not really interested in such things. I agree

5) Pornography and realted

I think anything if you get to attach to is bad.
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J et J

[Arcana]

In Canada, it's not illegal to drink on private property with proper supervision. So if you're drinking beer with your dad and your dad's giving you the glass, you're not breaking a law.

As for polygamy, there is nothing illegal about polygamy. You just can't legally marry more than one person, and most churches will not recognize a new marriage unless you formally anull your previous one. However, if you are interested in polygamy, you might want to look up "polyamourism", which basically the idea that it is possible for a lover to love more than one person. I knew a few polyamorous people in my time (though I didn't sleep with any of them, hehe) and they're really, in the end, normal people with a bit more of a liberal attitude toward sex and love.

I should add that tobacco is becoming strictly enforced in many locations in North America (not as common in Asia and Europe) not because it's immoral to smoke (smoking has been a strong definition of American society for a long, long time) but because the evidence that smoking harms individuals is much too strong to be ignored. You might actually be able to make a case that the government is limiting your right to smoke, but there are too many studies done that show that smoking (including second-hand smoke) drains the health-care system so much that it's not worth defending. Treating tobacco-related diseases in Canada costs the health care system billions a year. The province of British Columbia is sueing the tobacco companies to reclaim 8.6 billion dollars of health care costs.
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Woo, 2000 posts as of Tuesday, 2007 August 28.

[St. Ajora]

[Yvl]

There are 3 stages of morality, according to some psycholegist guy. Preconventional, conventional, and postconventional. Preconventional thinkers usually do things based on whether or not they will be punished or rewarded. Conventional thinkers do things based on whether its against the law or not. And postconventional thinkers, such as myself, are able to fathom reasoning for each individual law, and make decisions based on what THEY think is right, regardless if it breaks the law or not. Most people never reach this level.

For example, in my school, the administration has taken it upon themselves to hire hall nazis- I mean, monitors. One of the rules in school is that cell phones are not allowed to be out. The reasoning for this is because camrea phones can be used to take dirty pictures, aside from the whole "disturbing class" thing. However, the hall nazis take the rule to an extreme. They have written people up when they drop their bags and a cell phone falls out, or if they move their cell phone from their pocket to their backpack, and even for having a cellphone that clearly doesnt work out.
Had they been more compotent, they would be able to understand that those incidents weren't hurting anyone.

Anyway, the point is this: Laws are in place for people too stupid to know the right thing to do. I myself have developed a habit of asking "Why?" every chance I get. Not to the point of a 3-year old, but I ask it enough to be able to understand if the person actually has a rational reason or not.

Drugs of specific types are outlawed in the United States.
Why?
The most obvious reason is that most or all of the outlawed drugs can kill you. And death is usually frowned upon by this society.

People under 16/18 (13 in Japan) cannot have sex without parental consent.
Why?
Because theoretically, a person's brain is not fully capable of decision making until a certain age. Also, there is a certain level of responsibility an individual needs to deal with the consequences. There's also the physical capability to have sex before a certain age, but by that point, you're screwed up either way.


Alcohol is not to be given to people under the age of 21.
Why?
This one should be obvious, but here it is: People's brains are not fully developed until they are in their mid 20s. How they got 21 specifically baffles me, but whatever. There is also the temptation of getting it the second you hit the required age, and if that age were, say, the same age you can drive at any time of the day, there are going to be people that want to excercise both privelages at the same time. Which is a damn foolish idea.

I'm pretty sure there is not a political law against "puppy luvin" but there is a social law against it. Yeah... this is one subject I'm not exactly fond of thinking about.

Porn cannot be displayed on daytime TV.
Why?
This is one of those things for the stupid people out there. If parents are too irresponsible or stupid to care what their kids are watching at an impressionable age, the kids very well could wind up becoming sex fiends, whores, rapists, etc later on. Why does that concern the government? Because those jobs are pretty dangerous, and are utterly unproductive.
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[Rune hunter]

There are law simple becouse it would be for the best interest of the community.

1) If people who use drugs usually have a high probability of commiting crimes. wether it be rape,theft or murder. Also there is the social cost of perfectly healthy people who will no longer work becouse of there addiction. And lets not forget it will be the community who will be forced to spend money to treat addicts of the long term effect of using drugs.

2) People are not morally,social,physically mature enough to make good decisions about sex and its not in the best interest of a cummunity for kids to be going around experimenting in something that could be life altering for children.

3)Cosidering how reckless people become when they are under the influence of drugs it would be in the best interest of the community to have only mature people who would used alcohol. Although if it were up to me id ban the use of alcohol.

4)Lets just say its not in the best interest of the comunity to see a guy having "puppy loving"

5) I dont thing it would be in the best interest of the community to have there children see porn on day time tv becouse it would rot a kids morality