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Gay marriage in Massachusetts
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Gaara

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2004 6:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I agree with Rheo's points completely. She came up with very good points.

It is not God's will for us to just have reproduce over and over. Some women can't give birth, does that mean they do not deserve to be loved and have the previleges of marriage?

It is not God's will for us to go against anything. I mean God created everything, God created homosexuals, is God wrong?

I'll leave the answer to that up to any homophobe or anti-gay marriage person. So if anybody feels like arguing on this issue strongly, feel free to IM me, otherwise discuss your opinion on this thread.
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Filipe

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2004 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

While I could really care less about whether homosexuals go out and get married I cannot help but think that as long as there are presidents who agree with the Christian right this will never change. It doesnt matter whether they are democrats or republicans as long as they want to be President they need the support of the South and a good portion of them are Conservative Christians who are very anti gay marriage. This is a political issue mainly because the politicians in Washington want to go in favor of the larger group of people in this issue and those for gay marriage are out numbered. There would be a lot less problems with this if the whole gay marriage deal did not start or begin gaining momentum from both fronts during an election year.

The Christian right will never vote for anyone who will turn a blind eye to gay marriage and homosexuals will not support someone who wont allow it. If votes were to cancel each other out then the Christians would still have the advantage. Until the extreme right wing christians who stand firm on this issue start dying out and those who could care less take control of said anti gay marriage groups this will never be resolved. Unfortunately as a friend of mine mentioned to me once during a discussion on this issue said this will probably not change any time soon but one day it will. It is sad that people cant accept things the way they are but thats how it goes.

The Christians dont want anything resembling gay marriage. The homosexuals want gay marriage outright including the whole church wedding type deal if they want it. You know this issue would be solved right now if only the Christians would drop it or the homosexuals would just stop insisting on calling it marriage and just accept civil unions. Civil unions meaning that they would have all the rights of a married couple but they just couldnt call it marriage. Unfortunately neither side is willing to give in on the issue and no politician can in their right mind alienate one side or another by siding with the other. So the politicians who dont care wont do anything and George Dubbaya who is a Christian right works to outright invalidating all gay marriages made and canceling any decisions made by states. Sad isnt it?
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kuwaizair

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2004 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

SARSadmin wrote:
Lets get serious, is the issue really the squeaky voice? What is wrong with squeaky voices? Is Micky Mouse gay? Is his relationship with Minnie just a front!? The plot thickens...


well, I'm sure some Kingdom Hearts fans made some pretty bad yaoi based on that. I mean, at the end of the game Riku and Micky are left alone in that "dark" room *catch my drift*
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Schala-Kid

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2004 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I'm all for gay marriages. I'm for marriages period. sure, people can see it as an over the top ceremonious display, but i am just a sucker for weddings. call it a binding ceremony if you wish, but weddings are great, and anything that increases the amount of people joined in this union is truly beautiful.

the truth is that lots of people are no longer bothering to get married. often it means more trouble, due to pre-nups and the money and time involved, and that's understandable. it may be a 'tradition' that people have outgrowned and see as invalid - what with 56 day marriages, annulment, and jenifer lopez's insistance on getting engaged/married before she knows her partner. marriage could be viewed as a 'joke' by people now. yet for some people, it's still something they aspire to one day, and be they gay, straight, or transexual, and being part of a loving relationship of a fair amount of time, so long as there is no doubt in the parties minds, then marriage is a beautiful thing that should overcome all opposition and hardships faced.

some opposition, other than the over-discussed religious aspect (lets face it, if the state and church are truly seperate, then should it matter about gay people getting married?), could be that the union would be "unproductive", as being of the same sex, they would be unable to have children. the comes the option of adoption, and all the ridiculous crap of 'tainting' a child and not having a good enough roll model. i think that's an unfair view people take - i often believe that gay parents would be more able than straight parents to set positive examples, and growing up with gay parents could often result in accepting/tolerant children.

if gay marriages are such an issue with religious organisations and society, then why aren't defacto couples 'living in sin', babies out of children still hated and labeled 'bastards'? how could hetrosexual 'sinners' be tolerated, and homosexual 'sinners' not?

I can't understand that.

but one thing - a religion isn't truly structured by God, at least with catholicism, it was most likely done with celibate men thousands of years ago. while it's good to bring in discussion to the religious group, i don't think gay people should accept change. this is why at least legal state marriages should be allowed, and even if it is not practiced everywhere, those states which do allow gay marriages, the power of that unification in that state should be accepted and honoured in every nation across the world.

a couple of months ago, there was a case in the courts here about a 'lady' who got married. she was a transexual who had undergone gender reassignment, and had lived her life as a woman for more than 20 years. because she was born a man, and married a man, a church tried ot void the marriage. it just made me really sad.

a thought that came to me the other day was if it were one day possible to 'create' children through sperm/sperm, egg/egg genetic technology, where any two people's dna could be combined to create children: should this technology be available to the gay community, or only to those people who have undegone gender reassignment, or should it not be done at all?

i'm wondering what people's thoughts are on this one.
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Rheo

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 6:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Actually, as I understand it, in California right now, homosexuals couples who register for civil union do NOT receive all the rights of a married couple.
For example, if you are in a coma and in a critical condition, your spouse has the right to make the medical decision for you under law. But a civil union partner cant.

But I agree with your friend, I highly doubt the situation would change in my generation.
I also believe that it will work our some days. Back in the days, some Christians quoted from the Bible to justify slavery, now you NEVER heard any mention about those particular lines in the Church.
If a man would follow, today, the teachings of the Old Testament, he would be a criminal. If he would follow strictly the teachings of the New, he would be insane. ~Robert G. Ingersoll
I think this quote sums it up pretty good.
Religions change people, and people change religions. Every religions follow this rule. The Church simply ignore the unpopular things that the Bible said, or interprets it in a new way to blend it into the popular opinion of that era and that place.

The Church view marriage as "a sacred union between a man and woman". thats why gay marriage isnt a marriage. My opinion is, fine, they have the freedom to believe that. and the Church should have the right to refuse to recognize as gay couple as a married couple, and refuse to hold wedding ceremony to gay people. BUT, the Church doesnt have the right to stop gay people from registering as and having the rights of a married couple. The "sacred union between a man and woman" is the religion definition of a marriage, and there is the little thing: seperate of church and government. Besides, not all heterosexual marriage are "sacred"; people marry for money, people marry for power, people marry for a passport. Historically, so many kings and nobles marry for money and power, and yet the Church hold the ceremony for them. Again, people interpret things to their own advantage.

In respond to Schala-Kid's last question, I am not sure if this is true, but I have heard a couple of years ago that we do have the technology now to produce children with egg/egg. I am not sure about how trueful this information is, but I would say even if we have the technology to do it, the religious and moral issue would probably be enough to stop it, like how cloning is now.
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Saben

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

America is really quite a conservative, religious and all together backwards nation compared to most other countries. I'm not saying this to criticise, but in most other western countries there has been nowhere near the scale of debate that America has seen over the issue. I think Americans are too loyal to their constitution, which while revolutionary for its day is rather outdated in a modern world.

Australia has seen minimal debate over the gay issue with the Prime Minister pretty much following America a little too much and saying we'll allow civil unions with exactly the same rights, not marriages (nor recognise internationally performed marriages) and disallow international adoption for gay couples. In my home state of Tasmania (which until the 80s-90s was one of the most anti-gay states in Australia with homosexuality still illegal) thanks to the efforts of gay Greens Senator Bob Brown and a few other liberally minded members of parliament homosexuals have totally equal rights to straight couples, bar the title of marriage. Other states are a little more conservative, from what I understand, with only the Australian Capital Territory allowing equal chances at adoption, but overall it is not bad at all.

Canada has gay marriages legalise, New Zealand has marriage-like civil unions (not the unequal style seen in some parts), parts of the UK recognise civil unions with no interferance from the federal government. Most European countries are equally liberal on the issue. Still, it could be worse than the US- Afghanistan, Kuwait (where I know a substantial part of our members are from), Iran and other Arab nations in particular have sentences and even death penalties for homosexuality. Other nations such as Kenya, Namibia, Nepal, Pakistan and India also have harsh laws. For more information regarding state and international laws click here http://www.actwin.com/eatonohio/gay/world.htm

Personally, I want to get married and I would love to have a biological child with the man I love. A child that taken from a part of me and a part of him. Adoption is nice, I'm sure, but there is always going to be a different kind of bond with a biological child. I hope that science will get that far.
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kuwaizair

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I just hope the gay couples can adopt children that aren't chinese. I saw in a newspaper, thises old Lesbians who have a daughter they adopted from china.

acctualty, everyone gets babies from over there. dosen't america have its own unwanted or orphaned kids?

on the topic of "eff the gay people marry tehn the zooiphiles wull want to also" people, it could be serious or a try at humor.
one, if one groupe of people is finaly respected, then others might be, lets say you do meet somone who barks at you "ok, you think John and Joe are cute, but I'm the sicko for being a sadist"

I'm not saying homosexuals don't deserve respect, no I'm saying sooner or later everyone with a differnt sexual taste from the mainstream might want, even if legal issuses aren't thrown in respect.

but i'm mean and think people with crush fetishes are icky. people who "get off" when they slam cinder blocks on top of hamsters? yuk.

I'm supprized the whole Yaio/Yuri fandome isn't leaking into the mainstream and making everyone say "yeah...homosexuality rocks!"
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Vextor




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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2004 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

As anyone can see in the Tai Chi, there's always some yin within yang, and some yang within yin. There's no such thing as "total yin" or "total yang."

Although yin = female and yang = male in Taoism, it would be absolutely foolish to say that a male is "totally" yang, and that a female is "totally" yin. In fact, yin and yang merely represents feminine and masculine qualities within one human being, and is never meant to be taken as methods to separate genotypical gender (as opposed to the phenotype). It is mentioned in the Chuang Tzu that all things under Heaven have both yin and yang--they can't be separated.

Obviously, there is no condemnation of homosexuality in Taoism, because as a religion it doesn't really preach social morality. That's what Confucianism does.
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Greenoblivion

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2004 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Yea i dont think that its anyones business whether or not 2 people that love each other should get married or not...i mean YOUR not the one marrying the person so why do you care? your Not gay so you know what dont worry about it. You dont have to live as a gay person they do..I myself am straight but i know what a person that is gay has gone through because i went through middle school being poisoned in my mind that i was a gay person because of what everyone called me because i had a higher voice and i didnt have alot of male friends so i know what gay people have to go through everyday of their lives, people that hate them for who they are and what they do and its a horrible thing. You dont have to walk in their shoes, your not them so why do u care? Its not like your marrying someone of the same sex so just get over it if you want to believe that its against god then believe that because its not you doing it, its them and you have no right to say that its wrong because your the one doing it, and you all have to remember....The bible was written by actual people. Priests and Holymen wrote it so they put in their what was acceptable at that time and if it truly was against god, God wouldnt make people gay in the first place. OK IM DONE RANTING :mrgreen:
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2004 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

i'll try to keep this as brief as possible, since most of the points have been brought up before hand. The reasons why sexual intercourse between same sexes is usually considered bad in a religious sense (especially judaic) is because they did not produce children. One has to keep in mind the extremely high infant mortality rate of the ancient world (and pretty recent as well). Massive fertility cults and goddesses were worshipped to try and bring forth more children to create a higher population. Men wasting their seed was concerned a grave crime in the bible, because men were not doing all they could to assist the community, namely producing babies. Its not so hard to see why discourgement of same sex marriage and intercourse occurred in religion and the acient world.

of course, times have changed now. There is no longer a need for marriage to be simply about the production of children for the safety of the society. The social and religious facets of marriage have divulged significantly and the two are quites separate at this point in time. The state would never deny the marriage of an opposite sex couple because one of them was unable to produce children, it would be foolish. The days of the nuclear family are over, the sanctity of it has gone by the wayside, invalidating the poor environment argument. Of course, lets not forget the sanctity of the institution of marriage. People getting married on reality TV and quick 20 minute Stars themed weedings are prefectly legal, so why is gay marriage concerned such an outcry when the sanctity of marriage has long since died and its corpse torn asunder, so to speak.

on the matter of taoism, i have to say that I am severally lacking in knowledge of it, but if i do recall within the I Ching there was a combination for absolute Yin and absolute Yang. I'll have to look it up again though, dust that thing off.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2004 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Gay marriage is no big issue for a country with high regard for freedom rights like America, though many Americans have been protesting it. However, my opinion is that people who love each other should get married, no matter who and how they are like, and for that reason, no-one should ever discriminate those homosexuals. I hope in the future, our country will authorize gays to marry officially, just to show how free and wild Americans are.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2004 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Filipe wrote:
The Christians dont want anything resembling gay marriage...


You know Filipe, I'm incredibly offended at most of your post but in particular, I'd ask that you speak for yourself and not use one group as a scrapegoat. This Roman-Catholic political moderate is all for gay marriage, kthankxbye. I don't need some random person to tell me that it's all my fault that gays can't get married (and frankly, I don't think my beliefs have anything to do with whether two guys or two gals can't get hitched) or someone to tell me that I should hate a group of people merely because I happen to believe in Jesus. Sorry, not buying that. There are plenty of religions (especially older religions) that condemn homosexuality*; why does Christianity get singled out? Jesus said to treat people as you would wish to be treated; any "Christian" who treats gays with malice is only a Christian in name; they clearly don't follow Jesus's example.


* Though we can't forget that the ancients had a very different definition of homosexuality, and it didn't really matter in the same way then as it does now to public society.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2004 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

If you want simplicity. This is it.

I don't care. If my neighbors are gay or lesbian, let em. It doesnt affect the way I live my life. I'm not gonna bring a girl over to my house and be like "hey, you fags! You should be wanting some of this!" I'd more then likely be like "hey, this Gary and John, they're my neighbors. " In any case, I have gay friends and they should do what they want...it doesnt affect me one bit. My best friend for years was a lesbian(I'm a guy) and had another guy who was gay that I was good friends with, until he moved.

Law or religion shouldn't tell you who you can and can't marry...not to sound like a jerk, but this includes the old Indian arranged marriages.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2004 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Love is love. As the old saying goes, Love is also blind. Often times and hopeless romantic like we will also say that you can't help who you fall in love with.

I consider myself lucky to have grown up in a VERY open-minded family and neighbourhood.

If a gay or lesbian couple wishes to get married, I think it's stupid that the law won't let them. But then again, marriage in general has become just one big ceremony for a small sheet of paper but that's another matter/opinion entirely.

I know that in some religions and cultures it is frowned upon simply because they cannot bear the family children. But in this day an age...should we realyl be worrying about that? I mean, the world is already nearing overpopulation (if it hasn't already).

Gah I keep going off topic. X_X Anyways I've NEVER had a problem with gays or lesbians. My best friend actually admitted to me that she was a lesbian like..2 years a ago, but I didn't think differently of her. And a lot of my closest friends are bi-sexual, ga or lesbian and they are GREAT people. It's sad that most of society seems to act as though people who are homosexual have mental problems or something. At least, that's how the homophobes around here act.

But you know what's funny? (Well funny in the weird sense). In places that a gay and lesbian couple can get married (or maybe it's just here. *shrugs*), they can't get divorced. ^^;;

What a crazy world we live in...
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2004 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I'm straight. I'm for gay marriage. In fact, I believe very strongly in it. If the couple is truly in love, and responsible, and knows what they're doing, why are we trying to stop them? Like people have mentioned, you're not the one getting married to the same sex, and they aren't forcing you to do what they're doing. So why even protest it so badly?

I'm proud of Massachusetts for finally realizing that it's proper for them to have such rights, and I hope the rest of the states realize it.

As for the "they can't have children" idea... Sure they can. They can adopt one of those poor homeless children who needs a home more than the child a straight married couple brings in. Not that I'm against straight couples having kids, but homosexuals can very easily take care of children, as long as you actually let them adopt them. So the "they can't have children" idea is very simply silly.

*shrugs* I don't have too much to say on the matter, I'm afraid... Just I'm for gay marriage.
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