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Why Rina is so good... according to SARS
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Kobold




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PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2004 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

You know, this topic is to justiy how powerful Rina can be by a certain set up. Thats all. It doesn't really have to reflect on hos useful this set up is in actual game play.

Why? Because Suikoden 2 is an easy game, and heck, you don't need any wierd or interesting or powerful set up to beat the enemies. Just use 6 characters, give them decent armour and runes and the game can be completed in a breeze.

However, character set ups is simply for the fun and investigation of it, and not to make beating the game easier or anything. I believe SARSadmin's point is that Rina is the most powerful character you can acheive via complicated customisations. And that her set up is actually more powerful than the Sheena/Killey set up if you look in the sense of total damage done.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2004 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:
Your point about the minotaurs and other high HP monsters would only be in effect for the very end part of the game (probably around the last 3-5% of the game). So it is clear that it doesn't matter *that* much at all. And even so, as mentioned before, the party consist of 6 characters and they should be enough to kill those monsters in one turn (or at the least kill half of them in one turn to minimize any possible damage taken). So while Rina might be the only one that could kill them all in one hit, it might not be the necessary to do so.


The point is that Rina is the only character who can kill them off herself. No other character can pull that off. In the same regards, the "Killey Setup" can not be done until exactly the same point in the game due to his 3rd rune-slot opening at level 55.

Quote:
Then you also mentioned that we could replace the Kindness Rune with Exertion Rune to achieve similar effect. I honestly doubt that it would be "similar" because without Kindness Rune trick being in effect, you could end up dealing 1/3 or 1/4 or even 1/5 of the damage with the trick being in effect.

Actually, the damage would be roughly 1/2 of what she would do with the kindness rune trick--that's what I got from actually trying this in the game. Doing around 700 damage to all enemies is not that bad--it will at least kill all regular enemies up until L'Renouille.


Quote:

You're right though that the effort is worth it or not is a matter of personal taste. I agree with that. But if you want to use the Kite Rune setup to its fullest effect like the way you typed it on the first page, you have to keep the Kindness Rune trick to be in effect the whole time. So if you played the game for 20 hours and you got Rina in your party for let's say 14 hours, you'd have to get her KO'ed 28 times. It's not worth it for me because even without the Kite Rune setup, she could still be nearly as useful.


Well, you're talking to a person who kept Riou knocked out after every right since he reached level 30 to make sure I can do the level 99 trick on him. So whatr you consider is "not worth it" is very different from mine. It's just like how some people like to try dishing out the maximum damage with Sheena, Killey, or Bob--an exertion, violance, double-strike, and warrior combination would be extremely tedious to use to achieve maximum damage, but some people think it's worth it. Rina trick though, is actually useful to ensure that all enemies are defeated in the 1st round, even enemies specialized in counter-attacks (such as Monster Flowers) who pretty much need to be attacked with spells.

Quote:

Let me put it this way. When it comes to normal physical attack, with the Kite Rune setup there, anyone with 2 open rune slots could deal the same damage as Rina. While anyone with 3 open rune slots could deal even more. So from the normal physical attack point of view, Rina's Kite Rune setup isn't the best.


Depends on what you define as "best." You know that the word "best" is relative. My pointis that Rina is the only character who can have this setup to defeat all normal enemies in one attack.

Quote:
The only thing that makes the Kite Rune setup to be better than other setups is the ability to deal huge damage to all enemies. Yes, Rina is the only one that could do that and she is the best when it comes to dealing damage to all enemies. But again, do we need to deal 1500 damage to all enemies all the time? No, we don't because most of the normal enemies don't have that high HP anyway. So technically speaking, anyone with Kite or Great Hawk Rune, Double Strike Rune and the Kindness Rune trick would still be enough to kill most of the normal enemies. Hence, her advantage of being able to deal huge damage to all enemies isn't really *that* useful at all. It's like finishing the game with level 99 characters. Sure it's nice to be able to have higher stats, but it wouldn't really be that different compared to if you beat the game with level 55-60s characters.

Yep, any characetr with a long-range weapon can emulate this trick and do good damage. However, Rina is the best choice due to her extra rune-slot. That's the point of this article.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2004 7:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Nelm wrote:

BTW, Rina is the best because of what she might have done at the North Sparrow Pass. She's not the best because of what she did, but she is good because she inspired Nanami, however Nanami just couldn't get it done. :)


Nanami didn't come in contact with Rina until Coronet Town, thus Rina's, urm, "skills of persuasion" didn't rub off, just coincidental that Nanami had simular tactics in mind.

But Rina being skilled at whatever it is she did earns points - She is indeed the best sexually-aware female in Suikoworld.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2004 8:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Actually, Nanami's tactic are VERY different from what Rina had employed...

Which is why it didn't work anyway... And well... Even if she did try the same method as Rina did, i doubt it'll have worked anyway...
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2004 9:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:
The point is that Rina is the only character who can kill them off herself. No other character can pull that off.

Actually you're wrong. Tir could do it with the level 3 spell of Souleater Rune. Might not be all the time due to limited MP, but he could do it none the less. But it doesn't matter anyways. I was just stating some facts.

Quote:
In the same regards, the "Killey Setup" can not be done until exactly the same point in the game due to his 3rd rune-slot opening at level 55.

Again, I'm not arguing that Killey, as a character, is better than Rina. So there is no point for you to keep on focusing on the level 55 thing. The setup could be used on any character with 3 open rune slot. And to make it even clearer to you, I was arguing the so called "Killey setup" and "Kite Rune setup" purely as the setups and NOT on who they are used on. So if it helps you to clear things up, to me, Rina is more useful if she uses the "Killey setup" than "Kite Rune setup". I hope you finally understand what I'm trying to say here. The name and character "Killey" was just used as an example of someone with 3 open rune slots.

Quote:
Actually, the damage would be roughly 1/2 of what she would do with the kindness rune trick--that's what I got from actually trying this in the game. Doing around 700 damage to all enemies is not that bad--it will at least kill all regular enemies up until L'Renouille.

That's because you used it at the end of the game with probably level 55+ Rina and maxed sharpened weapon. If you're at the beginning of the game, Rina's ATK would be way lower because of the lower STR and WPN stat. Hence, she would be doing 1/5 and then improved to 1/4 to 1/3 and eventually might be 1/2 (which I honestly doubt so because that would mean her ATK is roughly 500 which might never be achieved with max 140 WPN and 186 STR = 326 ATK, even with ATK bonus from equipments, it wouldn't be an extra 180 ATK)

Quote:
So whatr you consider is "not worth it" is very different from mine.

That's why I said that it wasn't worth it for me. I didn't say that it wasn't worth it for you. If you bother to KO Riou all the time so that you could use the level 99 trick on him, then more power to you. But to me, it's very plausible to say that most of us don't bother to do that. Hence for my personal opinion (just to make sure that you wouldn't treat this as if I'm stating a fact), most people wouldn't be bothered to keep up the Kite Rune setup on Rina to be in full effect (which includes KO-ing her every 30 minutes) just to achieve the 1500 damage to all.

Quote:
Depends on what you define as "best." You know that the word "best" is relative.

True that. My bad if I stated it as if it wasn't relative. I didn't mean it that way.

Quote:
My pointis that Rina is the only character who can have this setup to defeat all normal enemies in one attack.

I acknowledged your point already and I agreed with it.

Quote:
Yep, any characetr with a long-range weapon can emulate this trick and do good damage. However, Rina is the best choice due to her extra rune-slot. That's the point of this article.

Like you mentioned yourself, the word "best" is relative. =)

But yeah, I don't want to go all month long going back and forth. I guess we should just agree to disagree. I hope you don't take things personally because it wasn't my intention at all.

Just a little bit reply for Kobold's post
Quote:
And that her set up is actually more powerful than the Sheena/Killey set up if you look in the sense of total damage done.

That's not true. With the Kite Rune setup, Rina would be dealing 1500 damage to all enemies (max. 6 enemies). So that would mean she's dealing 9000 damage, while it's known that Killey could deal 40000 damage which is still around 4 times of what Rina could do with the Kite Rune setup.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2004 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I can't argue on that because i know nuts about character set ups, and i don't like setting up characters anyway, so...
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2004 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:

Actually you're wrong. Tir could do it with the level 3 spell of Souleater Rune. Might not be all the time due to limited MP, but he could do it none the less. But it doesn't matter anyways. I was just stating some facts.

Yeah, you got me there, but I meant to say that she can do it through non-magical attacks. Using a magic attack, anyone who can use combo spells can dish out more than 1500 damage to all enemies.


Quote:
Again, I'm not arguing that Killey, as a character, is better than Rina. So there is no point for you to keep on focusing on the level 55 thing. The setup could be used on any character with 3 open rune slot. And to make it even clearer to you, I was arguing the so called "Killey setup" and "Kite Rune setup" purely as the setups and NOT on who they are used on. So if it helps you to clear things up, to me, Rina is more useful if she uses the "Killey setup" than "Kite Rune setup". I hope you finally understand what I'm trying to say here. The name and character "Killey" was just used as an example of someone with 3 open rune slots.

I used Killey because you used him as an example--any other character with three open rune slot can not duplicate the Kite Rune setup. And the whole point of my article is that Rina is good because she can have the Kite rune setup, which no other character can. You may disagree with how useful that setup is, but that is simply your opinion.


Quote:
That's because you used it at the end of the game with probably level 55+ Rina and maxed sharpened weapon. If you're at the beginning of the game, Rina's ATK would be way lower because of the lower STR and WPN stat. Hence, she would be doing 1/5 and then improved to 1/4 to 1/3 and eventually might be 1/2 (which I honestly doubt so because that would mean her ATK is roughly 500 which might never be achieved with max 140 WPN and 186 STR = 326 ATK, even with ATK bonus from equipments, it wouldn't be an extra 180 ATK)

That's true, but that's why I advocate the kindness rune trick--which I don't find as being as tedious as you claim it to be.

Quote:

But to me, it's very plausible to say that most of us don't bother to do that. Hence for my personal opinion (just to make sure that you wouldn't treat this as if I'm stating a fact), most people wouldn't be bothered to keep up the Kite Rune setup on Rina to be in full effect (which includes KO-ing her every 30 minutes) just to achieve the 1500 damage to all.

I don't see a point in your argument at all in that case. It's like saying, "I'm pretty sure most people think so-and-so." So what? I don't really care about other's perception of what is best or not. My point is purely statistical--that Rina is the only character who can do this.



Quote:

I acknowledged your point already and I agreed with it.

That's good, then there's nothing else to argue with you.

Quote:

Quote:
Yep, any characetr with a long-range weapon can emulate this trick and do good damage. However, Rina is the best choice due to her extra rune-slot. That's the point of this article.

Like you mentioned yourself, the word "best" is relative. =)

No, in that case, Rina would be the statistically be the best choice bar none due to the fact that she is the only L-range character with 3 open rune slots. There is no possible evidence to counter that fact.

Quote:
But yeah, I don't want to go all month long going back and forth. I guess we should just agree to disagree. I hope you don't take things personally because it wasn't my intention at all.

You've already agreed with the point that Rina is the only character who has the versatility to pull this trick off, and that's pretty much the point of my claim. Whether your opinion is that it is useful or not isn't my concern.

Quote:
Quote:
And that her set up is actually more powerful than the Sheena/Killey set up if you look in the sense of total damage done.

That's not true. With the Kite Rune setup, Rina would be dealing 1500 damage to all enemies (max. 6 enemies). So that would mean she's dealing 9000 damage, while it's known that Killey could deal 40000 damage which is still around 4 times of what Rina could do with the Kite Rune setup.
[/quote]
Although Rina would never do more total damage, the comparison here is irrelevant. Killey can only deal as much damage when the enemy is asleep (x2.0), is in a Violence Rage (x3.0) with a Double Strike Rune (x2.0), with a full Exertion Rune (x2.0) and a critical hit (x3.0).

If Rina is set up with a Violence Rune in the place of the Fury rune and attacked a group of six sleeping enemies, the damage would be--
500 base damage to all with kindness/kite rune x double strike (x2.0)= 1000
1000 x Violence Fury (x3.0) = 3000
3000 x sleeping enemy (x2.0) = 6000
6000 x 6 enemies = 36000 damage.

Thus, Killey with that set up doesn't do 4 times the damage, he does a bit over 1.1 times damage compared to Rina.
Not only that, it would be extremely rare for him to even be able to pull all of that off because he must critical and at the same time hope that the randomization modifer doesn't fluctuate his end damage.
Meanwhile, Rina can deal 36000 damage with the same setup consistently.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2004 5:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Not to argue, but I actually got a bit confused with some of your explanations there.

Quote:
And the whole point of my article is that Rina is good because she can have the Kite rune setup, which no other character can.

I hope I don't misunderstand your point here, but if I'm correct, then you're basically saying that the reason why Rina is good (according to you/SARS) is because she is the only character that can use the Kite Rune setup. At least, that's what I'm getting from the quote above.

But if the ability to use certain setup is considered to be the reason (and not the usefulness of the setup itself), then we could end up having Genshu is good because no other character could use Swallow Rune (which I'm sure that you would disagree because that wouldn't prove that Genshu is good at all). To me, the reason should be because of the usefulness of the setup and not the ability to use the setup itself. That's why I was stating my opinion about the usefulness of the Kite Rune setup on Rina.

Quote:
You may disagree with how useful that setup is, but that is simply your opinion.

I don't disagree that Rina's Kite Rune setup is useful, but all I'm trying to say is that it's not necessarily needed at all. Just like how level 99 character is useful but not necessarily needed to finish the game. Hence, she wasn't *that* great because in a sense, the ability to deal 1500 damage to all enemies is still replacable (though not by one single character).

Quote:
That's true, but that's why I advocate the kindness rune trick--which I don't find as being as tedious as you claim it to be.

I claim that it is tedious for me (and probably most people) and not for everyone because it's a fact that you did it and you even KO'ed Riou the whole time to use the level 99 trick on him.

Quote:
I don't see a point in your argument at all in that case. It's like saying, "I'm pretty sure most people think so-and-so." So what? I don't really care about other's perception of what is best or not.

If you don't care what other's perception is, then why did you bother to reply to my posts (which in a sense, my perception of the Kite Rune setup)? No offense at all, but it doesn't really make sense for you to spend some minutes to reply if you don't care.

Quote:
No, in that case, Rina would be the statistically be the best choice bar none due to the fact that she is the only L-range character with 3 open rune slots. There is no possible evidence to counter that fact.

Then why did you treat the word "best" as relative when I was saying that she isn't the best when it comes to dealing damage to single enemy with normal physical attack? It was clear enough that statistically Killey could deal more damage than Rina. Hence, Rina isn't the best when it comes to dealing with normal physical damage. What's relative about it? It's purely statistical as well.

Just as a note, I said that it was relative just to play along because I was hoping to use your own words to counter your post. But since you decided to clear things up why the word "best" isn't relative in your case, I feel the need to clarify my reason as well because it's only fair to do so.

Quote:
Thus, Killey with that set up doesn't do 4 times the damage, he does a bit over 1.1 times damage compared to Rina.
Not only that, it would be extremely rare for him to even be able to pull all of that off because he must critical and at the same time hope that the randomization modifer doesn't fluctuate his end damage.
Meanwhile, Rina can deal 36000 damage with the same setup consistently.

Again, you misunderstood the comparison. The comparison was strictly between the Killey with Violence Rune etc setup and Rina with the Kite Rune setup. And in the Kite Rune setup of yours (which Kobold was referring to in his post), she used Fury Rune instead of Violence Rune. Just because Rina could replace the Fury Rune with the Violence Rune doesn't mean that you do that. Otherwise you would be putting Violenece Rune in your article here instead of Fury, but yet, you didn't.

So when I said that Killey did 4 times the damage, it was compared to the Kite Rune setup with Fury and strictly to that. I never claimed that he did 4 times the damage of what Rina could. Heck, with the very same setup as Killey's Violence Rune etc, she could probably dish out more than 36000 damage making it even closer to Killey's damage (considering that the only difference between the two is the 25 WPN stat).
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2004 7:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

"Yeah, you got me there"

Actually he didn't. Tir is an exception, and here's why. (Sure the magic thing, but I figure this is better., and actually still supports your point) Tir is the exception because he's not always in the game. Don't load the Suikoden 1 data and then say what ya said again.

But....Who the hell would want to play SUikoden 2 without playing 1. PLaying 1 first just magnifies the experience so much....oh man.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2004 7:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:
Actually he didn't. Tir is an exception, and here's why. (Sure the magic thing, but I figure this is better., and actually still supports your point) Tir is the exception because he's not always in the game. Don't load the Suikoden 1 data and then say what ya said again.

*sigh*

SARSadmin said that Rina is the only character who can kill all normal enemies in 1 turn. I said that Tir could do it as well. Now the question is, could Tir do it or not? The answer is still yes. Regardless wether Tir is an exception due to the fact that he's not always in the game, it doesn't matter at all, because the point remains that Tir could kill all normal enemies in 1 turn. So Rina is not the only one who can do that because Tir could do the same as well.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2004 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

unless i'm mistaken, what i think he *sars* means is that rina is the only L range with 3 rune slots that can use the kite rune, not that she's the only character who can use the rune.

if that were the case, the statement would be false, since the kite rune is usable by those with throwing *shuriken* class weapons; if i remember correctly, sister eilie is also kite capable...i don't see sars making this type of mistake in a theory.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2004 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Bugg, I initially responded to your posts because they included errors and untested assumptions, which needed correction. I don't like wrong info posted without them being corrected. Otherwise, your opinions are opinions, and it doesn't have any value in terms of statistical fact, just like how any of my opinoins would have no value in the face of facts.

As sybillious stated, the point is that Rina has three rune slots open, has an L-ranged "shuriken-class" weapon, and thus is the only character who can get the maximum benefit from the Kite Rune setup. There can be no contention to that fact.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2004 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

sybillious, as I've mentioned, I knew that SARSadmin meant that Rina is the only character that could use the Kite Rune setup (notice the word "setup") and I never said that he meant that she's the only one who could use the Kite Rune.

As for what SARSadmin has just said, that's why I didn't disagree with it. It's a fact that Rina is the only one who could use the Kite Rune setup. But as I've been saying from previous posts, my post was to voice my opinion of disagreeing the usefulness of the Kite Rune setup and never to argue wether Rina, as a character, is useful or not.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2004 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

This concludes that this entire debate is absolutely pointless because SARSadmin had no intentions to argueing with you, and was merely correcting errors, while bugg's point of argument has been justified to be irrelevant to the point of this topic.

Now how fun is that?
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2004 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

bugg, you tend to lean towards argumentation for everything, small or not. sars is making a point, as you stated, but you are making argument.

your argument was muddled in that area over the kite rune; otherwise, i wouldn't have pointed that out.
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