Suikoden Uncanny and Irenic Kraalesque Omniscient Xperience

Suikox Home | The Speculation Shelter | Tablet of Stars | Suikoden Timeline | Suikoden Geography |Legacies


  [ View Profile | Edit Profile | Nation System | Members | Groups | Search | Register | Check PMs | Log in | FAQ ]

Editorial: Luca Blight the Hero
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic     Forum Index -> Site Content Discussion
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Arcana

The Engineers


Joined: 25 Jan 2005
Post Count: 2035
Location: Lion's Maw
190546 Potch
200 Soldiers
0 Nation Points

PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2006 2:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I think Rainrir has the best post on this page, by far.

Unfortunately, Luca Blight is presented to us in much too one-sided of a way for us to make a strong judgement on whether Luca's a hero or not, but what deep insight of him that we do see, we do not see any sign of him wanting to work for the larger good of Highland. Yeah, I know that I haven't interviewed the Highland people, but I think the argument is just a tough one to swallow.

I think that if you wanted to try to present the fact that even villians are heros (or that heroes are villains), you'd have a much easier time doing that relating to current events than to the video game. You can make the case that Hitler was a hero for the German people after World War I, because he brought the country out of recession, went to war, and tried to bring glory to his motherland; his other agenda of creating an Aryan race is somewhat of a noble goal, although he went about it all wrong. Osama Bin Laden and other Muslim extremists want to bring down the west because they feel that they're being "put down" by them; one instance is that Iran feels as if the West is putting them down by trying to shut down their nuclear program. Thus, Osama cries out, "Fight for Islam! Down with the West!" You can maybe get the sense that if you were on their side, they'd be the heroes, and the U.S. are the terrorists. Behind the villain mask, you can see that Osama and Hitler have some attractive qualities (charisma and cunning, for example).

Unfortunately, we really don't see any attractive qualities in Luca Blight from our perspective as a player, and I think most people on the board find it difficult to try to extrapolate. It does not take a lot of imagination to see that Osama Bin Laden is a great speaker and can motivate the hearts of people. It does not require a lot of extrapolation to understand that Hitler was charming and intelligent. However, it does take some concentration to imagine Luca Blight as an intelligent, inspiring leader who gives moving speeches, or teaches young recruits how to fight for Highland, or a man introducing great economic reforms to bring Highland out of recession. As a result, the argument is difficult to swallow.

I'm curious, UberYuber, if you actually believe that Luca is a hero, or if you were playing devil's advocate for the duration of the article?
_________________
Woo, 2000 posts as of Tuesday, 2007 August 28.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
ferin




Joined: 07 May 2006
Post Count: 6

0 Potch
0 Soldiers
0 Nation Points

PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2006 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The word hero implies a relationship between the hero and the idolizer I guess, you can't really say "firemen and policemen" aren't heroes while Luca is.. I'm sure there are people who idolize all fire/policemen and don't idolize Luca.

I guess the main point is that different people have different heroes, but it does show the kind of personality someone has if they.. say, idolize Satan.

edit: I meant to edit this post so that it sounded less abrasive but my connection crapped out. I never *intended* for it to sound that way, I was just being too foward and I apologize.


Last edited by ferin on Tue May 09, 2006 11:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Starslasher

Chunks of Chaco-late.


Joined: 03 Jul 2004
Post Count: 6482
Location: Dunan Delta
1177790 Potch
300 Soldiers
35 Nation Points

PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 12:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

90% of the time, i hate being told this, but in your case, calm down, Ferin. While i may not agree with the article, UnberYuber gives a very good point in the article: History is written by the victors. Which, in this case, is Jowston.

Oob was just trying to change the perspective around, to show what Luca did to strengthen the Highland Nation against its enemies, the City States.

ferin wrote:
Don't get mad if people disagree with you though, if you want to write editorials you're going to have to develop some thicker skin.


[quote=Arcana"]I'm curious, UberYuber, if you actually believe that Luca is a hero, or if you were playing devil's advocate for the duration of the article?
[/quote]

To answer both of your questions, even though i'm not Oob, i'm very certain that he was just playing the devil's advocate. And i don't think that he's that mad about people disagreeing with the article.
_________________
Guardian of Greenhill & Devoted Protector of Oulan



Bork! Bork! Bork!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
Futch

JUST ME AND THE OTHER BIG DUDES


Joined: 14 Jun 2004
Post Count: 2389
Location: Middleport
125356 Potch
0 Soldiers
0 Nation Points

PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 12:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Though I disagree with UberYuber's view of Luca Blight, I find the article to be amusing and well written. I really hope you keep them up because they surely fulfilled the goals of keeping me entertained.
That's quite a hard thing to accomplish because in my case, when I find someone else's opinion to be "holy crap, what was this guy smoking while he wrote this!" I tend to stop reading in order to avoid brain damage.

Anyway, good job.
_________________
DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger
Eden

Private Godwin Army


Joined: 17 Feb 2006
Post Count: 6220
Location: Doraat
558571 Potch
0 Soldiers
0 Nation Points

PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 3:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I am not so vain to write about what UberYuber meant by writing the article, because I don't know him much, yet I am still sure I have an ide which goes in the right direction. Many people here know the old story in Suikoden II and many have played the game more than once and I am sure almost everyone saw the events unfold in a certain way as they saw Luca in a certain way too.
I don't believe Luca was a hero and I think UberYuber doesn't think this as well (but maybe I am wrong about this assumption). I think he was just up to show us that even if we were participating (yes playing) the whole events, the history os told by the winners. What does this mean in this special case?
I don't see the "evidences" UberYuber told us, because they are no evidences at all, but his article helped me again to see things different. I still think Luca was a sadistic monster because he did what he did, but I am now aware again that I can't know what people are planning or thinking, not really. Even if there aren't convincing evidences, the possibility that Luca might have seen the things a different way we know and he has shown too is never impossible. If I am right and this was the purpose of the article it fulfilled this purpose. If I am wrong it's not bad, because it still helped me understand things better.
_________________


The Fool
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Rainrir

Landsknecht


Joined: 06 May 2006
Post Count: 251
Location: Negative Reality
0 Potch
0 Soldiers
0 Nation Points

PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 4:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Thanks Arcana.

In any case, the thing is that while playing Suikoden 2....we are not looking at the events through history books. WE ARE EXPERIENCING what exactly happened in those events. Of course, if there is no Suikoden 2 and all we have about Luca and Jowston is Old Book Volume X...we will of course question the authecity of the claims that Luca is a Monster.

However, the game presents to you all events in real time as they are happening. It also shows you some events that your side do not see, likely Jowy's fake sacriface of Julia, Jowy's Dialouge with Culgan/Seed. Basically the game gives you a god-like view of the events.

The creators of the game will not show any bias to the enemy side, because they will present all their intent and ideas of a certain/person/event/nation in the game or auxillary content to the fan. This is the reason why I believe that there is no "two-sides" to Luca's behavoir, he is what he is persented by the people who CREATED him. Luc has two sides to his actions because he IS presented as so. Luca doesn't he does not get any mention of his other side even in later publications,

Playing a game is like experiencing the game first hand, as a demi-god of the Suikoden world. You will see or at least given hints of all sides of the events if the Gods of the Suikoden world (the creators) intend for the event to have more then ONE side.There is "no winner writing the story" while the events are happening because noone has WON yet and the Story is written not by the characters inj the Suikoden world but BY the CREATORS themselves.

This is different from reading history, which is written by the "winners" of historical struggles. This kind of experience is a 3rd person account which could be influence by bias. Only in this case you can justify the lack of presentation of an "alternative" side to event to how history is written by the "winners. Like how Luc's true motivations will be covered up/ignored but his atrocities will all be recorded down in Old Book X in a futre suikoden game.

So arguing that the Luca Blight is a hero and we must consider his "other side" which the game and auxillery publications has made no mention of is very flawed. And the idea of "history is written by the victors" does not even apply to this case.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Eden

Private Godwin Army


Joined: 17 Feb 2006
Post Count: 6220
Location: Doraat
558571 Potch
0 Soldiers
0 Nation Points

PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 4:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I was aware that we're experiencing the course of action from the view of one person mainly and the only occasions we see Luca without the presens od Riou is when he and Jowy are in the same room. We don't see Luca when he is alone just his self-portraying when other people are around. The way I write isn't easy to follow nor is it good at all. I thought at one point of this discussion of a case which happened not long ago in my nation. A cop wanted to know from a assumedly hijacker where his victim is. In order to get the information he tortured the man, who was the commiter, and get the wanted information... You see, my mind was just hopping from one theme to another. I thought people are doing cruel stuff in order to gain the greater aim. Sorry for that.

my reference to the history was nearly as bad as this, because I thought even if we might find Luca's diary the things he wrote will certainly never be public knowledge. Again I excuse for my bad writing.
_________________


The Fool
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Nameless Wanderer

Chuukekkonkoken


Joined: 29 Mar 2006
Post Count: 26
Location: USA
0 Potch
0 Soldiers
0 Nation Points

PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

A hero is a great man of divine skill and great ambition, that will do anything in his power to achieve it. They fully dedicate their lives to their own kind of justice.

That is what I define as a hero, but that's my Oriental roots getting to me. Taking that into context, it would be safe for me to say that Luca Blight is INDEED a hero.

Just not the kind of regular morning cereal hero that most people think of in their daily lives, when they watch Saturday morning cartoons with not a care in the world.

Every person in the world has his, or, her own brand of justice.
And thus, opinion differs greatly from person to person.

This world itself is nothing more than a great clash of personal justices that managed to group into nations, which in turn clash in the name of their own collective justices. The victor of such clashes will most likely be named as the "just".

Moving away from that, though, Luca Blight completely fits my description of a hero.

He has divine skill (He's the strongest human that doesn't even use any runes), great ambition (He really wanted to destroy Jowston, making it great in the sense that it was going to need a great operation to pull it off), and he completely believes in his own justice (Citizens of *MUSE* are pigs that must be slaughtered because they are EVIL).

A hero need not be good to be a hero. He just has to have the stuff I put on top. (And some serious huevos grandes, while he/she's at it.)

NOTE:
Let me explain Luca's personal justice. I only put Muse in Luca's hitlist of people to kill because of a certain in-game fact that people are forgetting. The villages that were totally destroyed were only in Muse principality. (If sources were right, the thugs that messed up Luca's mind were thugs hired by the Mayor of Muse at the time. If you don't understand how that could mess a man's mind up, you probably don't have the divine skill to read into another man's personality. lol)

Certain towns that were occupied weren't destroyed at all by Luca Blight (probably because of logistical reasons as well) were Radat, South Window, Greenhill, and that town just south of Muse. Luca Blight also didn't go after the survivors of the towns he razed down to the ground. If he truly was as bloodthirsty as everyone is saying, then why didn't he apply the same brutality to all the cities even though he is such a madman that people make him out to be?

He DID round up all the citizens in Muse city that he could find and slaughtered them all as sacrifice for the Beast Rune, a symbol of Highland sovereignty, but after that, all the other people you see that Luca kills are those that are hurdles toward the path of conquest.

I also believe that the destruction of both Ryube and Toto were well executed maneuvers, albeit cruel and merciless. It prevents any army that Luca routs in the area (i.e. Viktor's mercenaries) from reassembling and reorganizing at said area for a counterattack.

In hindsight of the East Muse region invasion:
-Militarily speaking, it was flawless as a scorched earth assault. (Take into account that Kyaro town is still quite close to Luca's army, making supplies not that much of a problem for them as of now.)
-Psychologically speaking, it's quite intimidating. Not only for the Jowstonians, but also for the Highland army. (A general that leads by fear will have soldiers that are more afraid of him than the soldiers of their enemies.)
-Morally speaking, ... well, as there are different justices in the world, there are different types of morals as well.

On Solon Jhee's execution:
- Solon Jhee lost against a numerically inferior force that was trapped with nowhere else to go. Even if we were to say that Highland generals haven't had much experience against amphibious envelopments, they should have been more careful with utilizing wavering South Window troops in battle. Solon Jhee just didn't have enough an insight to see this, and then he lost quite badly. Some could say that he attacked way too early as well.

To appease the soldiers' morale, somebody has to take the blame for such a loss. Even soldiers driven by fear of their commander will not fight with their full potential if they know that their just going to die in the next battle due to faulty stratagem and planning.

*EDIT:
Mussolini isn't a hero. He was just another person in a major conflict. He didn't have divine skill that allowed him to stand up to any of the powers, Allied, or, Hitler's own. All he did was bully Ethiopia and become Hitler's lap dog, so he shouldn't even be compared to Luca Blight. Hitler and Tojo at least had the balls to envision a worldwide empire in their futures. Mussolini was probably worrying how Hitler was gonna think of him every time he woke up.
_________________

//Mahou Furyou Nagima! - Magister Nagi Magi//
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tokuro

White Storms


Joined: 05 May 2006
Post Count: 1292
Location: Malinsulo
22016 Potch
0 Soldiers
7777 Nation Points

PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2006 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Man leading in fear is the most stupid thing that one can do. Won't take long until all of your soldiers betray you, wich is what happened to Luca. There is another HUGE mistake in Luca strategy if his intentions were somply to scare. Sun Tzu said that a soldier is not putting all of himself until he is REALLY afraid. Sure Luca strategy could work for a while but if all of your enemies are SURE that they are going to die they will never surrender and will desperately fight for his life. If morale was a problem for Highland it was certainly no problem for the Dunan army.
One more thing: Yuber is not a hero, altough he surely have everthing that you mentiont it . Neclord too . The only thing that actually make Luca a better living thing than those two was the fact that he never scaped. Don't compare sense of justice with saturday morning cartoon. It migth be for some but for me come of years of study of the humam behavior and of both ocidental and oriental philosophy. The only thing that make a hero different from one who is not a hero is that a hero, even when he could or would NEVER kill for any of the reasons Luca did. If someone remember the part where he says "act like a pig if you want to live" and then after humilliating that womam spirit says "die pig" is a hero ?! OW MAN you defnitly need to watch some saturday morning cartoon...
Sorry if I am souding rude but I don't think that there is even argue for Luca Bligth being a hero or not
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Urn

Azure Flames


Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Post Count: 2590
Location: Mido Shallows
7756 Potch
0 Soldiers
970973 Nation Points

PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2006 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I think if you perseve a hero in the most black and white terms then you are quite misguided as to reality. Saturday morning cartoon heroes are made for little children and deeply drowned in politics and social stereotypes meant to mold their little minds since it could be said that society does not want many to know the true story.

A hero is simply a person that gave everything they had to accomplish their individual goal. There is quite a grey area there if you are being realistic. To the people of Highland, there is no doubt that Luca Blight was seen as a hero, who would lay down his life for his people and his country's ideals.

George Washington, Napolean, Vietnam Veterans, etc. etc. slaughtered many in the pursuit of their goals. I'm pretty sure the people massacred by them wouldn't see them as hereos, but we celebrate there accomplishments everyday.

So, lets not be naive and say that Luca Blight being a maniac makes him less of a hero. He was a soldier and a warrior. Killing was his business and his duty. Don't let the idea of morales cloud your vision and make you objectify and demean what Luca Blight accomplished. A hero spills blood on a regular basis and makes choices many would not have the heart to do. Luca Blight was an exceptional man and more than likely the model soldier for all of Highland. Remember the grey area. There is no black and white region here. Hell, even Jesus Christ and Confucious were enemies to thousands.
_________________
~ Humbly walk the path of death

KOOLUK SUPPORTS TINTO MINERS
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Camus the Noble

Les Renés


Joined: 24 Sep 2005
Post Count: 1881
Location: Vinay Del Zexay
1056014 Potch
224 Soldiers
0 Nation Points

PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2006 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

There have been some interesting posts here lately, so I feel compelled to comment. Rainrir, your posts were great. You articulated everything I wanted to say wonderfully. Welcome to SARS!

Urn wrote:
To the people of Highland, there is no doubt that Luca Blight was seen as a hero, who would lay down his life for his people and his country's ideals


The problem with this is that we have virtually no evidence to support the theory that Luca was doing what he did in order to make his state stronger. This is not expressed anywhere in the game or in any other source I have encountered. (If anyone has anything that can show that Luca really did have the best interests of Highland foremost in this thought, please bring it forth.) In the absence of such evidence, the most plausible explanation remains that Luca was simply attempting to exact his revenge on the citizens of Muse/Jowston for the attack on him and his mother all those years ago.

In my mind and the minds of most people, the word "hero" necessarily implies morality. Surely there is a better, less morally charged word to describe someone who simply works toward a cause with great skill: perhaps "champion." But to be a hero requires an ethical code. Luca surely did not possess any admirable ethical code; he slaughtered thousands of civilians, almost all of whom were certainly not responsible in any way for the attack on him and his mother, unless somehow the very act of being born in Muse Principality and/or not having the decency to emigrate is wrong.

As for the charge that the game presents a biased viewpoint, Rainrir again has it right. This is not a case of history being written by the victor, because histoy as presented in Suikoden II is not history at all, but what is happening in the present. The words we see Luca, Riou, Jowy, etc. speak are the exact words they use, and the deeds we see performed are precisely what happens. The Luca we see as the Dunan Unification War unfolds is a morally bankrupt individual; the game creators went far out of their way to make him unrealistically repulsive.

The only way to classify Luca Blight as a hero is to strip the term of any moral meaning. And that is bait-and-switch philosophy at its worst. Anyone who uses the word "hero" surely knows that the vast majority of people will interpret it as referring to a moral, compassionate, etc. individual. To then say that no, it entails no morality is intellectually dishonest. A person such as Luca, who is brave, strong, and devoted, can be described in a multitude of ways. As I mentioned, the word that comes to my mind is "champion." But without morality, the epithet "hero" does not apply. The word "hero" is just that: a word. It means nothing besides what people think it does. And a large majority of people think it means that the person bearing that title is moral. Luca is a hero to those who regard him that way, but not in the word's common sense.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Urn

Azure Flames


Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Post Count: 2590
Location: Mido Shallows
7756 Potch
0 Soldiers
970973 Nation Points

PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 1:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Whether Luca Blight worked to make his nation stronger or not is immaterial. My point is that a hero is not determined by morality. It seems that you all liken a hero to this cream puff idealized Saturday morning cartoon hero wearing tights. A true hero gets the task done no matter the cause. Morality is not an issue. So, I don't know where the whole notion that the word "hero" implies morality. I think people like to think a hero would naturally work for "good", but there in lies the problem. There is no true good or bad. To Highlanders, Luca was working in their best interests, so he would be good.

And then the whole idea of slaughtering people is irrelevant. How many deaths did Riou cause trying to fight against Luca and Jowy?? Casualties are inevitable in a war. The reasons for Luca starting the war is irrelevant as well. We are talking about whether or not Luca could be seen as a hero, not whether or not he could be seen as a saint. I think the majority wrongly focus on the most wishy-washy issue of all which is morality and ethics. What one person views as a strong moral fiber could be seen as the devil to the other.

Ethics and morals change do to circumstance. It's faulty to try to judge a hero based on those particular criterion. You don't need to strip Luca Blight of moral meaning to classify him as a hero. You just have to realize that a hero is a rather arbitrary term. You cannot classify it simply in terms as if you perform for the "good" then you are a hero. Heroes commit immoral acts all the time for the "good" and then we have to consider what the "good" is. So, I agree it is all based on the individual perception, but I disagree with the statement that Luca isn't a hero in the word's common sense.
_________________
~ Humbly walk the path of death

KOOLUK SUPPORTS TINTO MINERS
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Nameless Wanderer

Chuukekkonkoken


Joined: 29 Mar 2006
Post Count: 26
Location: USA
0 Potch
0 Soldiers
0 Nation Points

PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 2:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:
Man leading in fear is the most stupid thing that one can do. Won't take long until all of your soldiers betray you, wich is what happened to Luca.


Leading with fear is the most efficient way of controlling men, who are inhuman beasts when they have nothing to fear. Which is exactly why Luca Blight looks like a beast to us: "He is he who hath no fear."

Also, it is in no way the stupidest thing a general can do. In total war, a general who controls his soldier through fear will have a more disciplined body of troops. If your soldiers do not fear you, what will you command them with? Will they suffer hell for you if they do not fear your retaliation? They will most likely rout at the first sign of trouble.

Quote:
There is another HUGE mistake in Luca strategy if his intentions were somply to scare. Sun Tzu said that a soldier is not putting all of himself until he is REALLY afraid. Sure Luca strategy could work for a while but if all of your enemies are SURE that they are going to die they will never surrender and will desperately fight for his life. If morale was a problem for Highland it was certainly no problem for the Dunan army.


Nope, what Sun Tzu meant is that a man who accepts death and who fights desperately to live is the soldier that is difficult to defeat. An Oriental warrior ethos that I picked up during training state that "He who is ready to die at any moment, will live through a thousand battles."

Your proposal that all of Dunan will think that they'll all get slaughtered by Luca Blight is countered by the fact that not all of the towns have been completely destroyed. Only 3 towns were systematically destroyed. The rest were kept intact.

Those who fear for their lives will do 1 of 3 things: (1) Flee, (2) Negotiate, or, (3) Fight to the death. Unfortunately, for those who choose the 3rd one, they are already under a disadvantage of knowing that Highland's Commander is a demon-god on the battlefield. That alone can cause them to do number (1) Flee. Also, even though the soldiers will not surrender, if they give battle in an open area, or near some defile, like forested area, they will most certainly flee, if given the opportunity.

They will ONLY fight desperately if they cannot escape. Seeing as people can flee Dunan, many would rout under extreme fear of being massacred by Luca Blight.

Also, keeping morale high is much more existent a problem for the Highland army, since they are the invading/occupying army. They are not in their territory, defending their loved ones and their nation. The only thing these soldiers can rely on are their leaders, and if their leaders will only lead them to death in foreign soil, I can't see the morale of these troops getting high. That is why Solon Jhee had to be executed. To appease the soldiers by letting them see that the cause of their humiliating defeat was punished heavily.

It's called "The Blame Game", which is something that all governments use quite frequently, and people, as well.

Quote:
One more thing: Yuber is not a hero, altough he surely have everthing that you mentiont it.


No, Yuber doesn't fit the description of hero. Why? Simple. WE DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT HIM!

-What are his divine skills? At least he's capable in combat, but he was beaten by a single party.

Luca needed to be betrayed, night ambush of 3 parties, a rain of arrows, and a final duel against the leader of the Dunan Liberation Army, who, at this time, was a practically strong warrior by his own right, to be beaten.

-Does he have great personal ambition? UNKNOWN.
We don't really know what he wants to do.

-Will he be willing to do anything in his power to achieve his personal justice? UNKNOWN.
We don't know if he'll just turn out into another Neclord. It would suck if he did, however.

Quote:
Neclord too.


No Neclord isn't a hero. Why?

-What divine skill does this idiot have?
Everything that he has was stolen from Sierra. He doesn't even have an ounce of charisma.

-He had ambition, that's for sure. But in the end, he wasn't willing to die for his own ambitions, meaning that the only thing that he wanted to do was live. Just trying to live isn't an ambition.

-He doesn't even have any personal sense of justice. He was nothing more than a lapdog of Windy. And when he was on his own, he did nothing to show that he even had any conviction, acting like a whining coward before he was terminated by the Zodiac Sword.

Quote:
The only thing that actually make Luca a better living thing than those two was the fact that he never scaped.


No, as pointed above, Luca Blight exceeds those two and shouldn't even be compared to them. Yuber, maybe, if we knew more about him. But NOT Neclord. Neclord was just a worm.

Quote:
Don't compare sense of justice with saturday morning cartoon.


What am I supposed to say, then? Justice is what a person believes it to be. You cannot force your own sense of justice on another person without expecting retaliation.

Also, some people have a sense of justice quite patterned to those of Saturday morning cartoons (Good vs Bad). So I'm not really sure why you don't like hearing the truth.

Quote:
It migth be for some but for me come of years of study of the humam behavior and of both ocidental and oriental philosophy.


You're arguments only carry an Occidental view. As in hero = good.

Quote:
The only thing that make a hero different from one who is not a hero is that a hero, even when he could or would NEVER kill for any of the reasons Luca did.


Really now. Heroes kill for many reasons. And vengeance is one of them. So are you saying that vengeance isn't a valid reason anymore? I beg to disagree. To destroy those that, in front of his very own eyes, humiliated his family, which is the very pillar of Highland Kingdom. A royal family that was disgraced in his young, impressionable mind by a group of lowly thugs.

I would think that vengeance, and probably pride, would be very viable reasons for his slaughter. If Luca's mother were still alive and sane, it MAY HAVE made her a bit more happy, knowing that those that defiled her and their kin were dealt with. But who could blame her, the victim of a vile act? That in turn could've made Luca happier, even if he's the only one who thinks that way.

Quote:
If someone remember the part where he says "act like a pig if you want to live" and then after humilliating that womam spirit says "die pig" is a hero ?! OW MAN you defnitly need to watch some saturday morning cartoon...


At least he didn't prolong her life. Well, what else could he have done? Let her live and let people know that Luca Blight will spare your life through "pathetic" negotiation and bargaining. Ain't gonna happen.

Quote:
In my mind and the minds of most people, the word "hero" necessarily implies morality. Surely there is a better, less morally charged word to describe someone who simply works toward a cause with great skill: perhaps "champion." But to be a hero requires an ethical code. Luca surely did not possess any admirable ethical code; he slaughtered thousands of civilians, almost all of whom were certainly not responsible in any way for the attack on him and his mother, unless somehow the very act of being born in Muse Principality and/or not having the decency to emigrate is wrong.


As I said before, "personal justice" changes with each and every person. "Morality" and "ethical codes" are no different. It always changes for every person, since these are how people become unique in their own way.

Admirable ethical code? Surely, you jest. What is admirable to you could be abhorrent to another, and vice versa.

The thousands he slaughtered, can be seen as nothing more than his mere enemies in his mind.

So, tell me this: Washington and his compatriots started the War of Independence when the Colonies were taxed for a couple of items. But on the other side of the Atlantic, citizens of England were paying higher taxes on proportionately more items. So the great American hero that is George Washington went to war leading to many deaths for the sake of not paying tax that was abysmal compared to what the English themselves were paying readily. Ironically, American's decided to tax themselves afterwards to run their government.

Wait... that means that a lot of people died, because they didn't want to pay tax. And he gets to become a hero? Well, of course he does. They celebrate him as a hero, because the colonists see their personal justice of being governed and taxed by themselves being embodied by him.

The English probably thought of the Colonists as quite ingrateful. Washington was probably a hated enemy and villain in their eyes. They were being taxed chump change compared to what Londoners were paying the Empire, and they HAD THE GALL to even complain and kill their own soldiers, which were the sons and husbands of so many.

As you can see, the hero and his "admirable" ethical code, morals, and personal justice differ greatly when viewed under different eyes. So you cannot say that a hero isn't a hero due to being amoral in your eyes.

Morality and justice differ in every society. Those words are so overused that people don't even understand what they really mean anymore.

Which is what UberYuber was probably trying to convey in his editorial.
_________________

//Mahou Furyou Nagima! - Magister Nagi Magi//
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Urn

Azure Flames


Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Post Count: 2590
Location: Mido Shallows
7756 Potch
0 Soldiers
970973 Nation Points

PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:


Quote:
Don't compare sense of justice with saturday morning cartoon.


What am I supposed to say, then? Justice is what a person believes it to be. You cannot force your own sense of justice on another person without expecting retaliation.

Also, some people have a sense of justice quite patterned to those of Saturday morning cartoons (Good vs Bad). So I'm not really sure why you don't like hearing the truth.


Is this in response to anything I have said?? If it is then I think you have what I was trying to get across all wrong. I could care less about each individuals sense of justice because that is an intangible thing. That will vary based on the individual regardless of what may be true. I just feel that if you pattern your sense of justice to that of the Saturday morning cartoon then you are purposely ignoring the fact that the notion of justice implies one's perception.

So, I think it is faulty to say that justice is Black or White regardless of what people may perceive it to be. I am saying it is naive on their part to look at that idea in that fashion. So, I am not the one avoiding the truth, the person who perceives that idea in such a juvenile fashion is the one dodging the truth in order to stay in their comfort zone. Just thought I would clear that up if I hadn't done so before.

Other than that, I agree with pretty much everything else stated.
_________________
~ Humbly walk the path of death

KOOLUK SUPPORTS TINTO MINERS
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tokuro

White Storms


Joined: 05 May 2006
Post Count: 1292
Location: Malinsulo
22016 Potch
0 Soldiers
7777 Nation Points

PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Gotta admit about one thing. I messed up with Sun Tzu theory....but this is where ends.
I am not trying to make anybody change his justice code, just showing my philosopy of life. Now let's get to facts.
Why did Luca wage a war? Some says that he was going to destroy Jowstown so that they wouldn't destroy Highland in the future. Ok let's tear down China now because in a few years they will be better than America (who knows). That is the same tough. Revenge is not a term for a hero. And it is because person believes that vengeance is something a hero would do when one tries to become a hero it will have wrong followings. Morality and justice differs form eye to eye, yes. But there is the most basic principle of the universe: Don't do to others what you don't want for yourself. Tell me any religion and hero who would not think like that? Luca tough he was a hero, but he was blinded by his revenge. Now enough teory to facts: Show me one that tough that Luca was a hero and wasn't another fo@¨*#$ nuts. Of course the common person would think of him as a hero perhaps, but all those who lived at his side have a LOT o rage for him, just not killing him because weren't able to.... am I wrong??
Of course that from points of view one bad thing is good for another one, but who tough of Luca as a hero??? Not even the Highlanders (I think that is the way it put Highland native right?) tough of him as a good person. Yes he have goals, of vengeance, even perhaps heroic for triyng to "save" his country of the "Jowston menace", but the way he did it was cray, blinded. How many tragedies like the one he suffered haven't he commited? Having suffered something gives one the right to do the same thing? Quite a hero, this one...
Trying to show Luca and ONLY Luca point of view I agree he was a hero. But only for himself...
About oriental theory you should study the way of the Hwoarangdo (not the guy of tekken) the ancient type of TKD. Over there you will see the korean principles of hero. NOT MAKING ANYONE SWALOW MY POINT OF JUSTICE... I am just putting it here
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic     Forum Index -> Site Content Discussion All times are GMT - 4 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Page 4 of 6

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
suikox.com by: Vextor


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
  Username:    Password:      Remember me