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Editorial: Luca Blight the Hero
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Vextor




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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 10:58 am    Post subject: Editorial: Luca Blight the Hero Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Article URL--
http://www.suikox.com/ed/luca60504.php

Please discuss the article here.


Last edited by Vextor on Thu May 04, 2006 11:04 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I hope it's deliberately skewed for one. The other thing is that I don't believe Agares Blight to be a coward.

Well, it's obviously deliberately skewed seeing as the whole notion of Luca putting on a show for the masses is based on... the wishes that Luca was putting on a show for the masses.

I don't like it. But that's mainly because I despise Luca Blight as near as I can despise a fictional character.
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Camus the Noble

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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I rather think that this belongs not in the editorial section, but in the Speculation Shelter. The editorial is an exercise in wishful thinking; it is filled with specious logic and dogmatic statements (Agares was a bad king! It was all part of Luca's plan!). Rather than being constructed by evidence working toward a conclusion, it's obvious that the editorial is a mishmash of theorization mixed with very few actual facts, with the goal of proving a predetermined conclusion. As John Layfield said.

Actually, though, that may not be entirely accurate. The editorial is not completely consistent as to what it's trying to prove.

Quote:
Luca wasn't a Saint, but he was a hero.

...

Luca quite possibly was the greatest man ever to exist in Suikoworld, but he most definitely was a hero.


The first sentence acknowledges that Luca had shortcomings, while the second says that he may have been the "greatest man ever to exist." Rather inconsistent, don't you think?

Quote:
There's no one on the planet that hates the word "hero" like I do. People are often described as heroes when they simply do what is expected of them and that couldn't be further from the truth. Firemen running into burning buildings to save children doesn't make them heroes. Policemen dying in crumbling structures trying to save people doesn't make them heroes either. What would make them heroes is if they didn't have the occupation they did, and still followed through with the same actions. Their actions are heroic, but they, themselves, are not heroes.


This is debatable. It could be argued that firefighters and police chose those occupations so that they could have the opportunity to help as many people as possible, making them heroes. Or it could be argued that judging all police or firefighters as either "heroes" or "not heroes" is ludicrous. I'm not saying that any of these are right, just that such dogmatic, simplisitc statements on the nature of heroism are somewhat myopic.

Quote:
Agares is a coward


Again, dogma rears its ugly head. Do we really know enough about that incident to judge Agares' actions? What if his staying there would have resulted in his death? If he had died there, then it's quite possible that none of the captives would have ever been rescued. I don't know enough about the incident to judge Agares; if UberYuber did, he should have included the information in the editorial. Regardless, it is completely sophomoric to state that someone's cowardice is a "hard fact."

Quote:
From a Jowstonian's point of view he was a tyrant, from a Highlander's point of view his tactics were questionable, but from an outsider's point of view, the man was brilliant and his methods were justified by his goals.


The editorial fails to provide any explanaton for why a Highlander's point of view would be less favorable than an outsider's.

Quote:
In order to protect his motherland,


Just as UberYuber hates the word "hero," I hate the word "motherland." It's complete rubbish. The nation of Highland did not give birth to Luca. It does not hold any affection toward Luca. The nation of Highland has no more meaning to Luca than what he gives it.

So Luca did it for love of country. And that makes him eligible for the title of "greatest man ever to exist"? Why does Highland have any more right to exist than the City-States of Jowston? If Jowston overruns Highland and conquers it, why is that a worse thing than Highland overrunning Jowston?

This natiionalistic rubbish is garbage. Adolf Hitler made Germany one of the most powerful, probably the most powerful nation in Europe. In his mind, more than a few people had to die for that to happen. The similarities between him and your proposed Luca (I still hold that Luca was simply sadistic) are plain to see.

Quote:
Jowy made the sacrifices of all the children of the Unicorn Brigade, the soldiers of the Mercenary Fortress, and the citizens of Ryube and Toto worthless.


They were worthless to begin with. Luca had no right to decide that their lives must end for the good of Highland.

Quote:
Luca's sister Julia was born because of the tragedy that befell their mother. Because of this, she was a constant torment for him since he reminded her of his mother and the horrible circumstances of her conception. It was rather obvious that he saw both of them every time he looked her in the face and each time he must have had to both love her and forgive her. And yet, he kept her by his side, he protected her, and he really did love her (no matter what fear dialogue he spoke) Every ounce of patience, every bit of strength he could muster was just enough to live with her, and yet he didn't push her away. He knew that she was just as hurt as he was at times and he knew only he could understand her pain. He was there for her when most people wouldn't dream of trying to cope with that sort of pain. He was a real friend... a brother... a hero.


This shows an astonishing ability on UberYuber's part to read the minds of fictional characters.

Quote:
he strived to do exactly what he could to make sure the one's responsible (the assaulters were men from Jowston) paid for their actions.


Did he really? Did he try to hunt down those very rapists and exact vengeance on them? Or was he simply consumed with irrational rage toward an entire nation for the actions of a few?

Quote:
He fought for the wronged people of his nation


Wronged? How so? Because they didn't have a warmonger for a king?

Like I said, the editorial is an exercise in wishful thinking. Virtually no hard evidence is given to support any of the claims made, and the explanation that Luca was simply taking out revenge on the nation of Jowston for his own enjoyment makes more sense given the lack of evidence.
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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Camus The Noble wrote:
This natiionalistic rubbish is garbage. Adolf Hitler made Germany one of the most powerful, probably the most powerful nation in Europe. In his mind, more than a few people had to die for that to happen. The similarities between him and your proposed Luca (I still hold that Luca was simply sadistic) are plain to see.


So because a nation had to have people killed to make it prosperous makes it a bad place and the leader who advocates it is evil? Tell that to the founders of the United States who killed hundreds of British Soldiers to overthrow a government. Does this make George Washington an evil tyrant?

How about Abe Lincoln? He quelled a rebellion from the Southern States who tried to overthrow the north. Thousands of men from both sides were killed. Does this make Lincoln and Jefferson Davis evil people because they fought for the country they beleived in? Sure Jefferson Davis ended up losing, but he basically did what Luca did in standin up for his beliefs and tried to overthrow the nation he felt opposed his beliefs.

Lets look at Eurpoean history. Portugal, Spain, France and England in particular all set their explorers into Africa, the New World and Asia and conquered the world piece by piece. They marched into nations like India, Mali, Peru and such claiming them all in name of their homeland. If there was resistance, it was quickly met with a lot of death. The leaders of these nations were rewarded by the riches and fame of conquering the savages. Are the old Kings and Queens all tyrants?

King Arthur led his knights into the Middle East in some sort of Holy Crusade claiming he had a divine right to take that land as it was where his god once walked. King Arthur is revered as one of the greatest Heroes of all time.

So, yes, I will side with UberYuber on this one. If you look at it from above, and not from a Jowstonian point of view, Luca could be seen as a hero. Yes, his ways were a little maniacal at times, but he was very Machiavellian. He got the job done the only way he knew it would, brute force. Thats how war is.
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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Wow, comparing Jowy to Judas and Luca to Jesus? Nice man. I enjoyed the article, sure it was outlandish, sure it was skewed, but that's what made it enjoyable. Good work, looking forward to another.
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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I enjoyed reading that alot, thanks.

No ones ever a hero to everyone, there are different heroes for different sets of people, a hero to one person can be a demon to another.
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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

RedCydranth wrote:
So because a nation had to have people killed to make it prosperous makes it a bad place and the leader who advocates it is evil? Tell that to the founders of the United States who killed hundreds of British Soldiers to overthrow a government. Does this make George Washington an evil tyrant?

How about Abe Lincoln? He quelled a rebellion from the Southern States who tried to overthrow the north. Thousands of men from both sides were killed. Does this make Lincoln and Jefferson Davis evil people because they fought for the country they beleived in? Sure Jefferson Davis ended up losing, but he basically did what Luca did in standin up for his beliefs and tried to overthrow the nation he felt opposed his beliefs.


I should have been clearer. Hitler and Luca both went out of their way to target civilians in their efforts to make their countries greater (although, as I've said, I don't think that that was Luca's goal in the first place). Although civilians were almost certainly kiled in both the American War of Independence and the Civil War, they were not targeted and exterminated with the prejudice we're talking about here.

Furthermore, the War of Independence was not a war of aggression; that is, one country did not try to conquer another as we saw with Highland and Jowston.

Also, I don't consider Abe Lincoln and Jefferson Davis evil because I don't consider nationalism evil. Nowhere did I apply the word "evil" to nationalists. I think of nationalism as silly, but not always evil. Both Lincoln and Davis are heroes in that they fought for a cause. In that sense UberYuber's defintion of a hero is correct.

The reason I reject UberYuber's argument is that I see no reason to believe that it was Luca's goal to restore Highland's glory in the first place. If it was, then it was his methods, not his goal itself, that disqualify him in my mind as a hero. But as I said, the editorial is not an argument that the restoration of Highland's glory was Luca's goal but an exercise in wishful thinking that it was.

Quote:
Lets look at Eurpoean history. Portugal, Spain, France and England in particular all set their explorers into Africa, the New World and Asia and conquered the world piece by piece. They marched into nations like India, Mali, Peru and such claiming them all in name of their homeland. If there was resistance, it was quickly met with a lot of death. The leaders of these nations were rewarded by the riches and fame of conquering the savages. Are the old Kings and Queens all tyrants?


Yes. Conquering foreign lands, subjugating the local populations, and exploiting their natural resources do not strike me as morally upright actions.

Quote:
King Arthur led his knights into the Middle East in some sort of Holy Crusade claiming he had a divine right to take that land as it was where his god once walked. King Arthur is revered as one of the greatest Heroes of all time.


I hadn't heard that particular legend, but I find Arthur to be overrated anyway. He was going to burn his wife for adultery, for goodness' sake.

Quote:
He got the job done the only way he knew it would, brute force. Thats how war is.


But Luca started the war in the first place! Under UberYuber's model, it was to stop Jowston from getting too much more powerful than Highland. Preemptive war has never seemed to me to be a good policy. But regardless, I repeat that the editorial gave next to nothing in terms of pieces of evidence that Luca was motivated by love of his country. I see nothing wrong with the generally accepted viewpoint that Luca was simply consumed with irrational hatred toward all Jowstonians as a result of his mother's rape, much like Lucia was angry at Teresa for Alec Wisemail's sins. This belongs in the Speculation Shelter, because at its core, that's all it is: speculation.
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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I made the decision in terms of where to put this article. My criiteria as to what should belong in the editorial section is pretty loose, and thus UberYuber's writing works as an editorial. I have no intention to move it to the Speculation Shelter, and that's that.
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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

"And they ask, "What is a Hero?" though the answer's very clear,
He's the one who faces danger whe nthe darkness hovers near.
He won't always follow orders, for he dares to question, "Why?"
And unless the reasons justified, the hero won't comply.
He shall face the fiercest foe even though he is afraid,
He shall dare to defy death when another needs his aid.
He shall brave the battle boldly, even though he may not win,
He shall face his fate unflinching, for he is a paladin.
He works not just for glory, he does it not for gain,
He does it to spare the lives of others an even greater pain.
And they ask "What is a Hero?" Though the answer's evident,
He's the one who faces death knowing his life's well spent."

That is my definition of a hero. Luca doesn't fit into that category no matter how hard I look. It isnt about perceptions of his deeds, its about a definition of a hero. I admit that his death scene was the most dramatic I had seen in quite a while, but he is by no means a hero.
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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Camus the Noble wrote:
RedCydranth wrote:
So because a nation had to have people killed to make it prosperous makes it a bad place and the leader who advocates it is evil? Tell that to the founders of the United States who killed hundreds of British Soldiers to overthrow a government. Does this make George Washington an evil tyrant?

How about Abe Lincoln? He quelled a rebellion from the Southern States who tried to overthrow the north. Thousands of men from both sides were killed. Does this make Lincoln and Jefferson Davis evil people because they fought for the country they beleived in? Sure Jefferson Davis ended up losing, but he basically did what Luca did in standin up for his beliefs and tried to overthrow the nation he felt opposed his beliefs.


I should have been clearer. Hitler and Luca both went out of their way to target civilians in their efforts to make their countries greater (although, as I've said, I don't think that that was Luca's goal in the first place). Although civilians were almost certainly kiled in both the American War of Independence and the Civil War, they were not targeted and exterminated with the prejudice we're talking about here.


Consider this, if those innocent people of Ryube hadn't died then military forces from Mise and opther surrounding regions would have stormed the region resulting in possibly larger casualties, both Highlander and Jowstonian. By killing the innocent, he potentially saved the lives of many of his troops, and what is a General's job in a military coup? Save HIS soldiers lives. When we hear about the military operations that the americans go through, we only her the number of american lives dropped. In vietnam we lost more than we lost in any other war. However the toll for the Vietnamese side is seldom heard. Why? Because its not our concern, we as Americans only care about our own. Operation Desert Storm was a huge success because he had minimal casualties for such a large scale operation, but how many Iraqi's met their fate? A lot. When we bombed those regions in Iraq, there WERE civillians in the area, however some casualties can not be avoided.

Sure Luca's actions on the unarmed can be seen as underhanded, but he was Machiavellian. For those who never took Ethics or Philosophy,. Machiavelli coined the phrase, the end justifies the means. As long as he got the point out that Highland was serious, it didn't matter if it followed all the rules of war.

Quote:
Furthermore, the War of Independence was not a war of aggression; that is, one country did not try to conquer another as we saw with Highland and Jowston.


No? As I recall WE took over the british colonizing it and formed a country. Its essentially the story of Suikoden 1 but a bit more real. When any war takes place its one versus the other and usually one side wins, resulting in a defeat and a change of the losing nation. America beat back the british and we took the land. The Ethiopians beat back the French and set their borders. It happens all over history. Just because a country isn't established its the same. In the American Revolution, it was an Idea versus a country. The Idea won and became the country.

Quote:
Also, I don't consider Abe Lincoln and Jefferson Davis evil because I don't consider nationalism evil. Nowhere did I apply the word "evil" to nationalists. I think of nationalism as silly, but not always evil. Both Lincoln and Davis are heroes in that they fought for a cause. In that sense UberYuber's defintion of a hero is correct.


Then you can perhaps cede to how Luca can be seen as a hero in some people's eyes. You are entitled to your opinion of him, as is UberYuber. You basically said there is no fact behind his argument and belongs in Speculation, not Editorial. Its all based on a personal veiw. You see it more from a moral and Jowstonian point of view whereas UberYuber sees it more from a realist or outside view. Its all about perception.

Quote:
The reason I reject UberYuber's argument is that I see no reason to believe that it was Luca's goal to restore Highland's glory in the first place. If it was, then it was his methods, not his goal itself, that disqualify him in my mind as a hero. But as I said, the editorial is not an argument that the restoration of Highland's glory was Luca's goal but an exercise in wishful thinking that it was.


His methods reflected the goal. Just because he takes the stance of conquer through fear doesn't make his methods wrong completely. Both Alexander the great and the Romans conquered using slaughtering tactics. Alexander marched into Persepolis and destroyed the entire city, subjucating all of persia in the process. People claimed he was undefeatable because every place thet opposed him fell in such a short period of time. He conquered through fear. Luca died before he could fully realize his goal but he was well on the way to domination of the entire Jowston regions. If it weren't for Jowy's betrayal he would have done it too. Perhaps the Jowy = Judas is a bit wrong because Luca was no Jesus but perhaps Jowy could be seen as a Benedict Arnold.

Quote:
Quote:
Lets look at Eurpoean history. Portugal, Spain, France and England in particular all set their explorers into Africa, the New World and Asia and conquered the world piece by piece. They marched into nations like India, Mali, Peru and such claiming them all in name of their homeland. If there was resistance, it was quickly met with a lot of death. The leaders of these nations were rewarded by the riches and fame of conquering the savages. Are the old Kings and Queens all tyrants?


Yes. Conquering foreign lands, subjugating the local populations, and exploiting their natural resources do not strike me as morally upright actions.


Very well, but immoral or not, any nation that expands must be aggressive in some form. Even if any of those nations did not agree with the subjugating of the tribal people, they all did it to keep each other in check. If any of them chose not to, it meant the others would be richer and a richer country has a better army and can invade you. So out of nationalism, they had to break the weak to feed the strong.

Quote:
Quote:
King Arthur led his knights into the Middle East in some sort of Holy Crusade claiming he had a divine right to take that land as it was where his god once walked. King Arthur is revered as one of the greatest Heroes of all time.


I hadn't heard that particular legend, but I find Arthur to be overrated anyway. He was going to burn his wife for adultery, for goodness' sake.


True, Arthur has his downfalls, but that doesn't mean he wasn't heralded a hero for doing basically the same actions as Luca.

Quote:
Quote:
He got the job done the only way he knew it would, brute force. Thats how war is.


But Luca started the war in the first place! Under UberYuber's model, it was to stop Jowston from getting too much more powerful than Highland. Preemptive war has never seemed to me to be a good policy. But regardless, I repeat that the editorial gave next to nothing in terms of pieces of evidence that Luca was motivated by love of his country. I see nothing wrong with the generally accepted viewpoint that Luca was simply consumed with irrational hatred toward all Jowstonians as a result of his mother's rape, much like Lucia was angry at Teresa for Alec Wisemail's sins. This belongs in the Speculation Shelter, because at its core, that's all it is: speculation.


Its been established that Luca did all of this so that his home country of Highland can become stronger. In the quasi-medieval world that is Suikoden it wouldn't be unheard of for one region to assault another for gain. He loved his country and felt it should be a powerhouse. King Agares felt differently so he overthrew him. He took control and led his nation into conquest. Is that SO wrong? The thirteen colonies after they maintained independence soon sought out the rest of the land by its nation and conquered it as their own. Olde England saw fueds between the the Scots and the English. I'm not sure if the Welsh fought, but I beleive they did. In the eyes of the English, William Wallace was a tyrant and a nuisance, but in the eyes of the Scottish he was a hero. I'll leave you this quote from the Movie Braveheart... "History is written by those who have hanged heroes."
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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Really, the article is an attempt to show that the definition of "hero" and "villain" is relative. Unfortunately, we never see enough about Luca Blight to really learn that he has a soft, sensitive side to care about. As Camus said, the evidence presented about Luca looking fondly at his sister and seeing his mother's torment is nonexistent, and resembles a phrase from fanfiction instead of reiterating a fact mentioned in the game.

The fact that Luca Blight pre-emptively attacked a nation, orchestrated brutal attacks on civilians, and laughed the entire time he did so makes him dramatically unsympathetic. Had he done the first two, then normal people might debate that he could be viewed as a great man bringing glory to Highland. However, the fact that he cackled like a raving madman in battle when executing his battles is really unsettling, and can, in a fell swoop, remove any impression of heroism.

Unfortunately, because the word hero is relative, you can't prove or disprove the argument either way. But, if someone views Luca Blight as a hero, then that person should view characters like Adolf Hitler and Osama Bin Laden as heroes as well, for consistency.
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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 12:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

This editorial definitely piqued my interest. There were several statements in particular I found quite amusing.

Quote:
His agenda at the Unicorn Brigade camp might seem rather horrible, but in fact, the attack was brilliant and justified.


Might seem? Since when has murder ever not been horrible? The truth of the matter is, although the ambush was brilliantly cunning, it is by no means justified.

Quote:
The second event is when the two "heroes" (Note: Jowy is not a hero, Jowy is the villain of Suikoden II) enter a city to see Luca and his troops burning it and slaughtering the innocent citizens. Even mocking them and torturing them before they're sent to their deaths. This is the second point where his intentions are inaccurately perceived as evil.


Again, his intentions were evil and horrific and saying otherwise leads me to question your logic.

Quote:
In order to protect his motherland, Luca was going to have to deal with the first problem: Morale.


The last time I checked their was supposed to be a peace treaty signing between the two nations that most, if not all the citizens were in favor.

Quote:
By slaughtering children of the nation and blaming it on Jowston, Luca not only made the soldiers ready to invade the moment they heard the news, but farmers, seamstresses, businessmen, were all ready to march to the front lines with their hoes, needles, or checkbooks ready to beat any Jowstonian they could in the name of the fallen children.


I wonder what these same people would do if they found out who really slaughtered their children.

Quote:
The third problem was the festering virus within his kingdom preventing it from ever accomplishing what it could. Was it even fathomable that a man that ran from his own wife's raping could lead a country to victory in war?


Why judge a man by his flaws? Are all men not hiding a skeleton or two in their closets? The last time I heard no one was complaining of his majesties past mistake (albeit our hero).

Quote:
Would anyone who knew of the previous tragedy want to fight for such a coward?


Hmm... Would anyone who knew of the previous tragedy (cough* massacre) want to fight for such a coward? (cou.g..h. well you get the idea)

Quote:
He sacrificed himself, he didn't call out, he took it like a man... like a hero


Seems to me your ideal hero is more of a man's man.

Quote:
He was a real friend... a brother... a hero.


Yea I'll be sure to thank my brother who killed my "step-father" whom I've been close to all my life.

Quote:
Luca quite possibly was the greatest man ever to exist in Suikoworld, but he most definitely was a hero.


I won't even go there.
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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 1:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I can see Luca Blight as many things. Raving lunatic, genocidal madman, Hitler incarnate... Rabies infested dog... I can never personally see him as a hero, but then again, I do think some of the things he did were brilliantly thought out. It makes one wonder what the game would have been like if he had killed Jowy off. I guess Luca could be a hero in certain perspectives (not mine, but somebody's).
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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 1:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

FlyGero wrote:
This editorial definitely piqued my interest. There were several statements in particular I found quite amusing.

Quote:
His agenda at the Unicorn Brigade camp might seem rather horrible, but in fact, the attack was brilliant and justified.


Might seem? Since when has murder ever not been horrible? The truth of the matter is, although the ambush was brilliantly cunning, it is by no means justified.


Wasn't the attack on Highland's own men? Jowy and Riou started the game as Highland soldiers, if I recall.

That's simply treasonous, and I think is a big reason why the logic of the article doesn't follow well. Anyone found to be attacking people on their own side is viewed as a traitor, unless there was grounds for suspicion in the Unicorn Brigade; as far as we know, there was none.

If a General in the U.S. Army attacked another army base, disguised as a terrorist, in an attempt to drum up support for a war against terror... I mean, really. Might work if he was never caught, but as soon as he was (and Jowy and Riou were the witnesses), then support would plummet. Even a terror network like Al Queda would never think of attacking their own.
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Zeik Tuvai

Aura of the Wolf


Joined: 19 Sep 2005
Post Count: 902
Location: Schiavik
12319 Potch
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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 1:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Arcana wrote:
If a General in the U.S. Army attacked another army base, disguised as a terrorist, in an attempt to drum up support for a war against terror... I mean, really. Might work if he was never caught, but as soon as he was (and Jowy and Riou were the witnesses), then support would plummet. Even a terror network like Al Queda would never think of attacking their own.
'
I agree with you on most points, save the last sentence. I don't see how you could know that Al Queda wouldn't turn on their own to gain public support. For a cause, some people will go off and fight, kill themselves, or even kill each other. Some people are just blindly loyal.
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Those who stray from the path of justice,
Are those who have no courage...
But under the wing of a strong leader,
Cowardice cannot survive.
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