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Questions and Philosophy about the True Runes [possible spoilers]

 
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ForeverKnight




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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 6:15 pm    Post subject: Questions and Philosophy about the True Runes [possible spoi Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

We all know that the Runes around the Suikoden world provide its bearers with powers found in nature and found in the nature of its inhabitants. They have been known to curse, and they have been known to be practically useless, as well. They have been known to be easily added and removed from their bearers, and easily used, without much consequence.
The True Runes, for the most part, seem to represent a governing force over the other Runes, or perhaps a greater consciousness or concentration. With this in mind, it brings up the question of what the True Runes' true effects on its bearers really are.
Now, thanks to Suikoden III and a few other mentions, we know the general attributes of the True Runes - immortality, limited precognitory abilities, and so forth. However, we've seen proof that certain True Runes don't stop at its most basic features.
Let's start from the most simple and undisputed of examples: in V, we see the entire Queendom ruled by the presence of the Sun Rune. It really isn't used all that often, but when we see the Queen of Falena bear the Sun Rune in the course of V, we see it clearly changes the woman. She becomes periodically volitile, unstable, and very vengeful. In addition to the powers granted to her, it's quite obvious that the Sun Rune had changed her.
Next, let's take a look at IV, and we look upon the Rune of Punishment and how it's a little less clear that the Rune affects the bearer. It seems that the nature of the Rune is quite literal - every time the bearer calls upon the Rune's abilities, the Rune begins to drain away at the bearer, in essence, 'punishing' the bearer for using it. Even some of the in-battle abilities has the bearer paying the price for its using, ending ultimately with death. This time around, it seems that the effect is less psychological and more physical and literal.
Going in proper order, we look at a couple of the True Runes in III: the True Water Rune, the True Lightning Rune, and the True Fire Rune. Given you followed the officially canon plot, we can vaguely see that there are effects the Runes have on their bearers that are found more in the natural aspects of the Runes as opposed to being purely literal or psychological. In the True Fire Rune, III tries to propose to us that the spirit of the past Flame Champion is imbued in the Rune - I beg to differ. I propose that the Rune is, instead, imbued with an innate nature that carries on to its bearer in some shape or form. You can see that with the True Fire Rune, its bearer is imbued with an amplified sense of purpose and justice and desire. In the True Water Rune, you can see its bearer begin to take a firm grip on reality and, while strong and assertive, also becomes supportive, understanding, and reasonable; moreso than before, anyways. With the True Lightning Rune, we see a bearer who, much like the nature of lightning, is usually silent and absent except for when it chooses to strike - and is incredibly potent and strong when it finally does. In III nature seems to be the theme underneath a good deal of the True Runes featured.
Continuing in sequence, we see a much more controversial look at the two True Runes taking the spotlight. Looking into the history of the world of Suikoden, a little, we see the origin of the Runes starting with Shield and Sword - if I remember correctly - and is suspiciously close in nature to those found in II, discovered by Riou and Jowy. In the course of the game, following the officially canon path of the game, we see the supposed heroes choosing their own paths... now, according to the history of Suikoden, Shield represented chaos and Sword represented order. I propose that, in a way, these True Runes could very well be the ones, in one sense or another, that started the whole thing. The evidence I use to back this up is how the bearers choose to find peace. Jowy, on one hand, the Dark Sword's bearer, decides to infest a kingdom and rule it so that his rule can bring peace over the land, while Riou decides to fight for what he thinks is right, causing war over the land with his Bright Shield Rune. Given, Riou was found as justified in his actions, I honestly think that the general consensus could be that he didn't deny the fact that he had to topple the nations that were against him in order to create a new world of peace. Destroy in order to recreate, and all that. We see that right from the get-go these two True Runes affect what choices these two make and possibly affect their views of everything. I can't remember what exactly the canon ending is, but in any case... the affecting of the bearers can be seen if thought upon.
Finally, we come right down to I, where Soul Eater isn't even really seen as anything other than a cursed Rune to bear. However, I think its nature is to reap the souls of those who die - and seeks to kill in order to reap the souls of the dead, else it drains the bearer of its life and finds a new bearer. Given the purpose of the killing wasn't always bad, as the wars were fought for a good cause, or so everyone has us think; there was still killing abound and plenty of souls for the Soul Eater to reap.

Other examples include Yuber's Eightfold Rune. I honestly don't think he started as a maniacal man from the Emptiness, but rather as someone chosen by the Rune and was sucked into that state of mind where his very existence is hinging on the causing of chaos in the world at any cost. Look at the Beast Rune - that's another good example of how it might affect its user, though we don't see or hear much about it in the game it's featured in.

What I propose, theory-wise, is one of two things... either the True Runes have a consciousness of sorts that influences the bearer of the Runes to a degree - and becomes, partially, them, depending on the person and how accepting they are of the influence, or that the True Runes have a certain nature imbued in them that influences the actions, thoughts, and personality of the bearer, and what certain parts of the Rune's nature that influences them depends on the bearer, and of course, how much it affects them depends on how, innately, willing they are to accept the influence.

I wonder if I'm just overthinking this, or if I'm seriously onto something here...

I also believe that the very last title that closes everything together will be the only title that tells the whole story behind the True Runes, and will more than likely feature Riou from II, and very possibly heroes from other titles - I would verily bank on seeing every True Rune bearer there.

Questions/Comments?
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Kikito

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:

Going in proper order, we look at a couple of the True Runes in III: the True Water Rune, the True Lightning Rune, and the True Fire Rune. Given you followed the officially canon plot, we can vaguely see that there are effects the Runes have on their bearers that are found more in the natural aspects of the Runes as opposed to being purely literal or psychological. In the True Fire Rune, III tries to propose to us that the spirit of the past Flame Champion is imbued in the Rune - I beg to differ. I propose that the Rune is, instead, imbued with an innate nature that carries on to its bearer in some shape or form. You can see that with the True Fire Rune, its bearer is imbued with an amplified sense of purpose and justice and desire. In the True Water Rune, you can see its bearer begin to take a firm grip on reality and, while strong and assertive, also becomes supportive, understanding, and reasonable; moreso than before, anyways. With the True Lightning Rune, we see a bearer who, much like the nature of lightning, is usually silent and absent except for when it chooses to strike - and is incredibly potent and strong when it finally does. In III nature seems to be the theme underneath a good deal of the True Runes featured


Ok, so I have a comment/question on this particular part of your post. You mention that the True Runes(the elementals in this case) affect the nature of the people they choose to be their bearer. However, couldn't it be that in some cases, rather than the True Rune affecting it's bearer's nature, it chooses a person that is already compatible with it's own nature? For example, Hugo is a character that almost from the get-go has a profound sense of justice, or at least developed it on the course of the story. In fact, if I remember correctly, the reason he started looking for the Flame Champion was so he could help the Grasslands as he did 50 years before. So, it seems that at least in the case of the elementals, it could be that they choose a bearer that is more compatible with them rather than just changing them after they become a bearer.

By the way, nice post there. Really got me thinking about stuff. :mrgreen:
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I didn't read all of it due to spoilers, but I did read Kikito's response. It is indeed quite likely that each rune has a will of its own, but it is really up to the will of the user whether or not to succumb to these desires.
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Geddoe

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I know I said I was going to wait until I had played through a larger part of Suikoden II before replying to this post, but I just got to the part where Jowy and Riou receive their runes. I want to go straight to your point about how the True Runes and their inherent natures affect their bearers. I remember reading somewhere that True Runes not only seem to have wills and inclinations of their own and can pass them on to their bearers, but they also bear the memories and emotions of every previous bearer of the Rune. In a way, that statement alone would account for a lot of the actions seen by the runebearers in the Suikoden series. Another point to consider is that even particularly strong aspects of a true rune can have the same effect as a whole True Rune itself. [Example: Bright Shield and Black Sword are two aspects of the Rune of Beginning, as quoted by Leknaat - I'm staring at it right now. Another example are the two aspects of the Sun rune in Suikoden V.] But even if you're only dealing with [aspects], I honestly believe that it depends on the person itself how the power of the Rune affects one's mind.

To give an example from Suikoden V, Arshtat decided to bear the Sun Rune, but I don't believe she may have been in the best emotional state of mind to do so. I believe that the Rune changes the person only if the person has a weakness in their character that would allow the True Rune to take hold of the bearer's soul in the first place. In the case of Arshtat, it is true that, "Heavy is the head that wears the crown." For her, acting upon the advice of Lady Merces, to bear the Sun Rune was not a decision to be taken lightly, especially in light of the circumstances surrounding this decision. I think that in her mind, there had to be the tiniest bit of doubt that she was making the right decision and that is where I believe that the Sun Rune took hold. Because once it did, the corruption of power inside the Sun Rune began to lead her to believe that her choices, even above the 'suggestions' of the Senate, were infallible and not subject to scrutiny, even by members of her own family. [See the Hero's report on Lordlake]. Slowly but surely, the corruption of the Rune became stronger and stronger, and her power against it weaker and weaker. When last this corruption is mentioned, we find out that Ferid's purpose for bringing Georg to the kingdom is a preparation for the worst case scenario.

Contrary to Arshtat's reaction to bearing the True Rune, I would like to present Geddoe as the opposite. He, the bearer of the True Lightning Rune, doesn't seem to find himself at all affected by the Rune, save for the fact that he is immortal. He takes his life and his power with about as much dignity and straightforwardness as he can. He's strong mentally, but Suikoden III does not give us enough time to explore his past to see whether the True Rune would have gotten a foothold into his psyche much like it had done with Arshtat. I think [and this is only my speculation] that he would be strong enough to do the same as his friend the Flame Champion, and give up its power when he felt the time was right, and live out the rest of his days without it. At least for the duration of Suikoden III, we don't see any lapses in his character or his judgment for having the power of the Rune, possibly because seeing the Rune go wildly out of control with the previous Flame Champion may have strengthened his resolve to not let it happen to him. This brings up another question - we are here talking about how True Runes try to force their will upon the bearer, but would it be possible for a strong enough bearer to encourage its will upon the Rune? I would like to think that it is Geddoe's will that keeps the Rune from taking him over and doing what so many other True Runes have done in the past.

Taking a leap from game to game, my next example is Tir from Suikoden I. I don't believe that it's entirely true, that the Soul Eater was nothing more than a cursed Rune, destined to bring nothing but death to those that bear it. I see it as a Rune that represents the circle of life - that the old must be culled away to make room for the new, and that particular circle never ends. We don't see the Rune possess Tir so much so that a resulting change in behavior occurs. But it is without question that the Rune has a mind and a will of its own, and again the bearer has to be strong enough to counter its will with their own so that disaster doesn't befall the bearer or people around him.

To the theory proposed at the beginning of the thread, I say this: It's been stated that the True Runes bear the memories, thoughts, and emotions of all the people that have borne it before, and it might be that so much power, and so much feeling behind that power might be enough to drive one person insane. Just like in the game, I don't believe it is the Rune itself that shapes a person's reaction to it, but the person itself, and their will to do right by not only the Rune, but by the cause that Rune is used for.
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PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2006 8:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I have read the first post. It seams that I'm not the only one who thinks about deep philosophy of True Runes. Nice to meet you.

Anyways.
Since eng. isn't my native language. I'll try to write my opinions on true runes and their philosophical meaning as best I can, so don't judge me through my poor expressions please, it's not that easy to express your self through other language as you can express your self through native lang.

As it was said , Suikoden world was created from Shield and Sword battle. 27 true runes were born from pieces of two. Let's start from that, since world was created from 27 pieces of brothers, those peaces must be of very great importance for life itself, as a matter of fact, life it self must be assembled from them.

So I think Muruyama tried to create story that was based on explaining the ways of life and desteny (maby even the predetermination ... not sure about this one), and making it more understandable to players. So taking every True rune as one aspect of life, then putting it on Characters to show nature of every single Rune by giving same Characters life struggle in wich thay have to chose their path by using the power of rune, presentng bad and good sides of life and runes at same time, teaching us of responability of wielding the power of choice and life itself.

First Suikoden starts with True rune of Souleater, or should I say, True rune of Life and Death.
The name of rune itself shows us what subject is brought up to the main story, and what are we suposed to think about. By naming this rune cursed and soul eating it can be said that Muruyama acctually tried to show us how life can be cursed by it self. By asking the question 'Is fate unchangable?' he brought up the theme of meaning of our lives, are our decisions acctually our own and non-affected by society, and are they even meaningfull, do they actually determine our life the way we want it to be etc etc. I even think that this was the reason why Suikoden games are the way they are, with mute main characters who depend only by our choices. Just to show us that we create our desteny ... offcourse in metaphorical meaning.
A lot can be said on True rune of Life and Death. I belive that that Rune will have more importance in whole serial (if going on by Muruyamas plans ... thought i doubt that after seeing suikoden 5).

Suikoden's 2 intro show's us everything concerning True rune of SII. If you are informed than you know that intro theme song is a latin version of 'Creation of the world'. The story show's us new true rune, The True rune of Begining. Presenting two aspects of that rune, I belive it was meant to show us dual nature of world, and perpectives that we usually don't get to see if we are convinced that only our opinion is the 'right' one when it comes to conflicts etc.

Dual nature of world is presented through Bright Shield and Dark Sword, two aspects of 'one'. Showing us through main characters that evil and good actually don't exist, that that it's all about us and our way of thinking. Puting those two on best childhood friends who are destenied to fight against eachother in name of peace. Whole game shows us episodes of winning and loosing + emotinal base of story, everything that a great story has. There are lot's of significant event's through the game showing us true nature of True rune of Begining, but I thing the most significiant one is in the best ending. When Riou takes the role of Shield guarding himself from Sword bearer. True rune of Begining appearing after forgivness which is caused from understanding 'the other side'.

S III tells us story about element runes and their nature. Showing us meaning of harmony in Nature in spite of difference of elements. As you already mentioned it ForeverKnight, i too belive that true runes of S III were designed to be conected with main Characters and 'their' nature. Although Konami gave us choice of making Flame Champion three characters, it's pretty obvious who is 'destenied' to bear wich rune. Hugo comes from Karaya clan, who are known for their temper and agressive apperiance. His sense for juctice is almost as same as old FC's was and + he's from Grasslands. (the guy is even in the intro fightinf Tre Fire rune incr.)
As for True Water rune, cold and calming nature of Water is fairly shown in Chris's character. And as always water is presented in feminity and beauty, Chris is girl, what more to say. And after all Wayat beared the same rune, like Hugo, Chris is obviuously True Water rune bearer.
For Ligftning and Geddoe is already said in ForeverKnight's post 'usually silent and absent except for when it chooses to strike - and is incredibly potent and strong when it finally does'.

Other two true runes in S III are Wind and Earth. beared by Luc and Sasarai. Two people so close and yet so far... just like wind and earth. As one is solid and analitical, busting his way through life in perfect order in diplomatical ways, other one is rebellious and revolutionary, making his way through disordeal.
Except that, whole 'union' thing to beat 'rebels' is very important. Showing how nations unite under one great danger to overpass it. Zexens, Karayans and Harmonians ... sworn enemies united to defeat greater danger is showing us the the nature of people, and as for true runes, it show's us coexistence of elements in world. Although they're so different they create perfect harmony.
I think that there is one significaint reason why is the Wind one who is rebelious, in many myths and stories, the Wind is always the one who tries change things in it's special way. And it's very often bounded to traitors and people who have many 'faces'. Like for example Gemini in Zodiac stories.


In Suikoden IV, first suikoden that Muruyama wasn't involved with, true Rune of Punishment was presented, the rune of atonement and forgiveness. Although it's shown that rune is punishing bearer in more physical way, i think that that was just way to connect it's 'punishment' meaning with gameplay it self, to make a burdain on players through battles etc. (though not sucsessefull if you ask me).
IMO i belive that True rune of punishment was created to show psychological side of humans. One very importatnt aspect of life it self.
I also belive that this rune can be interpretated as answer to question 'is human beign evil or good in it's essence?'.
Putting us in role of a young man who becomes a leader of rebel army, and who is given choice to judge over his folowers and their actions (that conffesion room :).
And Snow too, almost everybody hates that guy, who wouldn't hate character who doesn't have pride and selfrespect, a man who sold his soul to anybody and everybody ... in one word the guy is b.itch. But on the other hand, i think that Rune of Punishment would lost it's significiant meaning without Snow. Have you ever questiond yourself, why is Snow the last character to recruit.
After all the things he's done, and after ol of his changes that he made, just to bring you down .... only thing that u want to do is to ... well Punish him. Even after his confession and comitment for things he done, you don't know can u trust him, cause b.astard lies all the time just to put his head out of danger.
You have been given a choice to forgive him or to punish him.... the thing is, if you do punish him you'll die too, although you don't know that yet. If you forgive him you'll live. Putting your self in a role of a judge you're being judged by a Rune it self. Giving yourself right to punish other you're being punished by a Rune itself...
And isn't life the same? If we choose to judge over others aren't we being judged by someone else, and if we give ourself right to decide over other people's desteny, by turning them down and making their life somehow bad or misrable, after some time punishment reaches us too, if not phisically then psychologicaly for sure (or maby if you don't have conscience ... well that's other story :P ).
Anyways IMO the rune of punishment is presenting the psychological side of human nature, and although the game wasn't the 'best ever made' I would dare to say that rune of punishment could be the best rune in suikoden world.

Since I've beated S V just once I can't tell a lot about Sun rune, haven really thought of it yet. As far as it conserns me, Sun rune was just a non mistakeable rune to use. Cause Moon and Night rune already exist, it's logical that Sune rune was pictured in Muruyamas head. So nothing much to say on this one .... at least not yet.


I have theories on other runes as well. Esspecially on Beast and Moon runes. But it's quite hard to write, i havent said half of things what I wanted to say ... grrr.
here's a our suikoden site where I opened quite similiar topic:
http://suikoden.4.forumer.com/index.php?showtopic=134
I doubt anyone understands what it says, but if somebody does it will find more specified descriptions of true runes and their meanings.

Srry for misspellings :oops:
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PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2006 8:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Considering this contains Suikoden V information, there's only one place this is going to go.
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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Too bad nobody writes here anything :cry:
It's quite a good topic .
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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I think without a doubt that True Runes can essentially 'think for themselves'. I believe they are aware of their existence, and have the power to sort of 'fuse' with their bearer over time. I also believe they, like people themselves, all have their own beliefs and characteristics based on what rune it is exactly.

Lots of Suikoden 5 SPOILERS coming up people.

...

The Sun Rune, as I mentioned in another thread, is obsessed with justice, vengence, and deterrence. You could even consider it perhaps the most orderly rune; the Earth does revolve around the Sun, after all. Queen Arshtat, who is in power for some amount of time, feels the effects of the rune in two specific cases: the destruction of Lordlake, and during the Godwin invasion. The rune takes over her judgement, and little can be done until the Sun Rune decides to stop. The Sun Rune only seems to come out for as long as it deems necessary, before letting its bearer have free reign of their thoughts once again.

Interestingly, after the death of the Queen, the Sun Rune does not choose another host. The Sun Rune seems to understand that only the rightful Queen of Falena can be its master. As well, the Sun Rune also seems to understand that Lymsleia is far too young for the Rune, and it decides to remain dormant until Lymsleia is ready. To me, the Sun is completely capable of controlling itself, and knows what it is doing.

The Rune of Punishment (hereafter "RoP") is another case where a true rune seems to determine its own fate. RoP chooses hosts that it can punish, not kill. Thus, the host must need to be strong. While I forget the game, I do remember that Hero4 (no official name yet?) kills someone and then receives the RoP. In this case, the true rune is immediately choosing its own master, one whom it can punish without fear of killing its master. As Hero4 becomes stronger, he can use more of the RoP's power, the RoP not letting him use its full potential until he can handle it without dying (that might be a bit of a stretch there).

True Fire Rune of Suikoden III? This true rune obviously has courage, leadership abilities, and of course, the true strength of a fire rune. Its abilities are given to any holder, regardless if they call themselves 'Flame Champion' or not. The first Flame Champion does not seem to be anything extraordinairy, nor does Hugo. It seems they really become what they are known for with the characteristics added that are the characteristics of the true rune they bear.

Sticking on the topic of Suiko III, I believe the True Lightning Rune strikes "only when the time is right", just like lightning itself -- perhaps an accurate description of Geddoe. As for True Water, it seems to help Chris' father throughout his life until it knows recovery is no longer possible, when it then decides to go to Chris. I assume the True Water rune is much more passive, probably not minding if its current bearer chooses its future master. Remember, the running theme is that runes have personalities that tie in with what they are the rune of.

Sword and Shield. Suikoden II is pretty self explanitory. Jowy takes the Sword rune, Riou the Sheild rune, and both clash, just as the Sword and Shield true runes did in the very beginning. Their conflict lives through the two former friends, finally ending with the reuniting of Sword and Shield when it's all over.

Lastly, SoulEater. This rune has little to do with McDohl himself, in my opinion. I believe the SoulEater simply saw in McDohl an opportunity to take many souls, as McDohl was fighting against the Scarlet Moon Empire, and lent its strength to McDohl in order to achieve the aim of taking as many souls as possible. I suspect that the amount of souls taken in the events of Suikoden I pleased the SoulEater for the time being, so it remains comfortably dormant in McDohl, only (so far as we know) flaring up during the time of Suikoden II, where McDohl temporarily lends his help to Riou.

So there you have it. My take on true runes: They have personalities, and are cognitively aware of their existence and their characteristics. The rune bearer adopts the characteristics of the true rune they bear, whether slowly (Sun) or quickly (True Fire). I believe one can fight or resist the true rune, but in the end, it will win against any opponent except those who are truly exceptional (Jeane anyone?)
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