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Yohn
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 Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2006 4:34 pm Post subject: Quite a worrying matter for those in the US |
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Edited 10/06/06
I'm not sure who's up on this sort of thing, but there's quite a buzz going on a few bills that seem bit over the top.
Thanks to Ley, the link to a PDF version of HR 6166 is listed in the post below this one.
In a nutshell, what this bill highlights for The Detainee Interrogation Bill and the Military Comissions act, HR 6166 and S 3930 is listed below in a few bullet points. A few of these points seem to be a bit exaggerated, and while that may be the case, a lot of these are targeted toward a few groups mentioned in the bill itself. However who this bill will primarily pertain to will not be completely clear until it is implimented in an actual scenario.
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-> revoke habeas corpus
|-> create a secret committee appointed by Bush and Rumsfeld that has the power to declare any person - even a US citizen - to be an enemy, instantly depriving them of their legal rights. There will be no appeal allowed.
|-> allow police to search through your home without a search warrant
|-> end protection of prisoners of war under the Geneva Conventions
|-> give George W. Bush amnesty for any war crimes he has committed
|-> allow for people to be put on trial in front of a kangaroo court military tribunal, even if they aren't in any military, and have not engaged in military attacks against the USA
|-> allow the government to convict people of crimes on the basis of secret evidence that the accused never sees
|-> make it legal for the government to use testimony extracted through torture
|-> end the legal right to be protected from forced self-incrimination
|-> allow the government to imprison people without telling them what crimes they are being charged with
|-> remove the right to cross-examine witnesses
|-> allow for the records of trials to be kept secret from the American public
|-> enable trials to begin even before a thorough investigation of the alleged crime has taken place
|-> take away the right to a speedy trial, allowing people to fester behind bars without being charged of any crime
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The bill has already passed in the House of Representatives as well as the Senate and is pending approval by the President.
IMPORTANT NOTE: Thomas has a full and comprehensive outline of the bills and documents related to these bills, most notably HR 6054. http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d109:H.R.6054: If you'll look under Related Bills, it lists the other bills, including HR 6166, S3930 (the two that were passed) and a few others. I'm not sure about the status on HR 6045, other than the fact that it was placed onto the Union Calendar on 9/25 of this year. This website from what I have gatherd in it's outlines and information on these is completely factual and unbiased and the most reliable of all sources that I've come across on this matter
I'm having a very, very difficult time trying to find an article that is not biased as many people are understandably upset with the whole issue. The few links that I've came across are primarily from a liberal standpoint and if anyone can find any others from another standpoint, that would be greatly appreciated.
Here are a few websites I've found that discuss the matter:
-http://ourtomorrow.blogspot.com/2006/09/hr-6166-s-3930-and-trashing-of -already.html
-http://mediamatters.org/items/200609300002
-http://irregulartimes.com/index.php/archives/2006/09/28/6166-3930-summ ary/
-http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/politics/4223241.html
As far as other news resources go, google either "Detainee Interrogation" or HR 6166 and S 3930 and it'll bring up several official news sites on the matter.
Thanks to Ley, the original bill is posted below. Thanks, Ley![/url]
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Last edited by Yohn on Fri Oct 06, 2006 12:47 pm; edited 5 times in total |
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Ley
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| Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2006 5:07 pm Post subject: |
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http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=109_cong_bill s&docid=f:h6166ih.txt.pdf
I found that on Yahoo, so if anybody wants to read up on it just follow the link.
If I'm interpreting it correctly, it appears that the bill will work in retrospect. It also gives the United States it's own jurisdiction to declare who is an enemy of the state and take away their right to challenge the imprisonment.
If anyone has more time to fully study the docuement, please, go ahead.
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Vertius
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| Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2006 5:26 pm Post subject: |
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Wow. I grow happier that I live in Europe by the day. Looking at that summary that Yohn posted, it seems to affect basic human rights, like that of a fair trial. It seems a bit much; ludicrous, even. Vote Democratic Party in 2008! It's your only chance! :wink:
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Yohn
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| Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2006 5:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Vertius wrote: |
| Wow. I grow happier that I live in Europe by the day. Looking at that summary that Yohn posted, it seems to affect basic human rights, like that of a fair trial. It seems a bit much; ludicrous, even. Vote Democratic Party in 2008! It's your only chance! :wink: |
I'm honestly not looking forward to the elections that year... ugh.
I'm still reading over the bill... it's so long! Good thing most of it is in a large print so that some of the oldfogeys in office can read it. I hope they read it...
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Timbo
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| Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2006 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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Well, I was reading it and I don't see part about "ending the legal right to be protected from forced self-incrimination " and I actually see the opposite, (pg. 17, 984r):
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| ‘‘(a) IN GENERAL.—No person shall be required to testify against himself at a proceeding of a military commission under this chapter." |
And the parts about torture, immediately following the previous line:
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| ‘‘(b) EXCLUSION OF STATEMENTS OBTAINED BY TORTURE.—A statement obtained by use of torture shall not be admissible in a military commission under this chapter, except against a person accused of torture as evidence that the statement was made." |
Also the part about cross examination (pg. 20, 949, line 11):
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| ‘‘(A) The accused shall be permitted to present evidence in his defense, to cross-examine the witnesses who testify against him, and to respond to evidence admitted against him on the issue of guilt or innocence and for sentencing, as provided for by this chapter. |
As for being able to try anyone (pg. 5, 948b) :
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| ‘‘(a) PURPOSE.—This chapter establishes procedures governing the use of military commissions to try alien unlawful enemy combatants engaged in hostilities against theUnited States for violations of the law of war and other offenses triable by military commission." |
With alien and unlawful enemy being defined as (pg. 3, line 19)
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| ‘‘(3) ALIEN.—The term ‘alien' means a person who is not a citizen of the United States." |
and (pg 3, line 4)
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‘‘(1) UNLAWFUL ENEMY COMBATANT.—(A) The term ‘unlawful enemy combatant' means—
‘‘(i) a person who has engaged in hostilities or who has purposefully and materially supported hostilities against the United States or its co-belligerents who is not a lawful enemy combatant (including a person who is part of the Taliban, al Qaeda, or associated forces); or ‘‘(ii) a person who, before, on, or after thedate of the enactment of the Military Commissions Act of 2006, has been determined to be an unlawful enemy combatant by a Combatant Status Review Tribunal or another competent tribunal established under the authority of the President or the Secretary of Defense. |
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Last edited by Timbo on Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:53 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Yohn
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| Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2006 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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I read all of those in the first few pages as well, Timbo. In a document over 90 pages, however, I'm wondering where things start going out of bounds.
Note: I'm still reading it.
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Yvl
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| Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2006 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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As soon as bush signs it, USA will oficially be a fascist state.
| Vertius wrote: |
| Wow. I grow happier that I live in Europe by the day. Looking at that summary that Yohn posted, it seems to affect basic human rights, like that of a fair trial. It seems a bit much; ludicrous, even. Vote Democratic Party in 2008! It's your only chance! :wink: |
To hell with 2008, I'm so furious that I'm voting in EVERY election, democratic. Twice!!!
I'd like to know how much the bill was passed by, does anyone have that?
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Yohn
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| Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2006 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Yvl wrote: |
I'd like to know how much the bill was passed by, does anyone have that? |
I have for the Senate, which was 65-34. I'll look for the House.
Edit: The house was 232-191 in favor as well.
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Yvl
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| Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2006 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah... in that case I'm going to have to say that they rigged it somehow. There is no way that it could have passed with THOSE numbers unless it was attatched as a rider to a damn powerful bill.
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Amyral
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| Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2006 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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I have a feeling that as soon as someone in the US was affected, the SUpreme Court would rule major portions of it unconstitutional, even with the Republican influence in the courts. Much of this goes directly against the wording of the constitution. I also have the feeling that, if the democrats win big in 08, the law would be overturned very quickly.
So, in short, it's outrageous, but I don't think it will be in effect, at least not in it's entirity, for very long, even with the US government the way it is right now. Although this is the sort of thing that could piss people off enough to cut the Republican's control significantly. But that's dependent on the premise that the Democratic party can run an election, which hasnt' proven to be the case as of late. |
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Yohn
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| Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2006 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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What really bothers me is the outright defiance of the Geneva Conventions (the third one, particularly).
Heck, the bill itself says that if you're an "alien unlawful enemy combatant" and you're subect to a military trial that you my not invoke the Geneva Conventions as a source of rights. (Page 7 lines 12-16)
Woah, woah, woah, woah, woah!!!! That's throwing up a huge freaking red flag!
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Yvl
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| Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2006 9:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Amyral wrote: |
I have a feeling that as soon as someone in the US was affected, the SUpreme Court would rule major portions of it unconstitutional, even with the Republican influence in the courts.
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That's the thing... according to the summary, they can delay the trials as long as they want. So it could be kept from the supreme court indefinately.
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Inko
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| Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2006 9:56 pm Post subject: |
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| You guys do realize that the Supreme Court is probablly going rule this unconstitutional even if it is passed... |
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Yvl
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| Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2006 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Inko wrote: |
| You guys do realize that the Supreme Court is probablly going rule this unconstitutional even if it is passed... |
Someone needs to challenge it first. And if that someone is an "enemy" they dont get a trial.
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Timbo
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| Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2006 11:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Yohn wrote: |
What really bothers me is the outright defiance of the Geneva Conventions (the third one, particularly).
Heck, the bill itself says that if you're an "alien unlawful enemy combatant" and you're subect to a military trial that you my not invoke the Geneva Conventions as a source of rights. (Page 7 lines 12-16)
Woah, woah, woah, woah, woah!!!! That's throwing up a huge freaking red flag! |
Based upon the defintions stated though 'unlawful, alien combatant' means they are a non-american citizen that is unaffilliated with a goverment when doing their attacks. Because of the unaffiliation with the government, the Geneva convention is no longer valid, because the governemnt is what siggne dth genva convention, not the poepl unaffilliated with it. There's only specific people the lack of genva convetion guidelines are targeted at, not all people in wars.
If I wne into a building in France and killed twenty people and declared war on them, this would target me, because the actions were the decision of me and not the government. If the government told me to do it and I did it under their order, I wouldn't be target of this bill, because the latter was recognized by the state, but not the first.
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Last edited by Timbo on Mon Oct 02, 2006 12:40 am; edited 1 time in total |
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