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How about a Tenkai from another race?
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Luceit

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 5:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

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I think your reasons sound better FOR a Tenkai from another race than AGAINST it. The problems of getting a majority behind him and his cause might be more difficult, but also more gripping. If you are the royal son it isn't easy, but it is possible, but as some kind of person from a different race it might be more interesting, because the story writers have to delibertate why people should follow this man or woman and his cause at all has to be better, because the son of the killed queen has a rather easy motive...


That's an interesting viewpoint. I know that these reasons make it look more appealing for a non-human Tenkai, however, it does invite the question whether it was done 'simply for the sake of controversy.' Elves are already somewhat popular as heroes in books and dwarves also play quite a significant role, but they usually don't become leaders because they have very small numbers and any mistake could cause annihilation of their race. After all, even HUMANS don't get on well with other humans. Shame on us.

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I think an Underdog as Tenkai could be, if done good, a really interesting story and better than all the stuff where the hero is already somehwat legitimate. And it is a chance to create a really charismatic character from another race than just the ordinary human one.


No, it would be incredible, as long as they don't choose a mermaid for the job. Can you imagine the horror of it!?
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 6:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Luceit wrote:
Quote:

I think your reasons sound better FOR a Tenkai from another race than AGAINST it. The problems of getting a majority behind him and his cause might be more difficult, but also more gripping. If you are the royal son it isn't easy, but it is possible, but as some kind of person from a different race it might be more interesting, because the story writers have to delibertate why people should follow this man or woman and his cause at all has to be better, because the son of the killed queen has a rather easy motive...


That's an interesting viewpoint. I know that these reasons make it look more appealing for a non-human Tenkai, however, it does invite the question whether it was done 'simply for the sake of controversy.' Elves are already somewhat popular as heroes in books and dwarves also play quite a significant role, but they usually don't become leaders because they have very small numbers and any mistake could cause annihilation of their race. After all, even HUMANS don't get on well with other humans. Shame on us.


Since it will be the sixth volume of a more or less popular it will look not so desperate as if it is the first or second volume of a game. When Suikoden takes this step with the next installment it will look to me only like a new perspective and not so much forced as if it was only done for the "sake of controversy" as you called it perfectly.

Quote:

I think an Underdog as Tenkai could be, if done good, a really interesting story and better than all the stuff where the hero is already somehwat legitimate. And it is a chance to create a really charismatic character from another race than just the ordinary human one.


No, it would be incredible, as long as they don't choose a mermaid for the job. Can you imagine the horror of it!?[/quote]

If the writers do a good job it should work, but that is probably something that works only for some.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 6:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I don't see how a demi-human Tenkai would convince the various towns and factions that make up the rebel armies support that their cause is one that would benefit the humans of the nation rather than the demi-humans.

Suikoden tends to be quite political and I don't think a demi-human would be able to drum up the support needed for a successful rebellion. Not because they are not capable of such a task but because society in the Suikoden world tends to be very strict. Dwarves deal with dwarven business, elves with elven business - each to their own. How would en elf convince human leaders that his cause is for the benefit of the humans of the nation without them thinking he has a hidden agenda to empower the elves of the nation, possibly at the humans expense?

Yes it would be a good story but one I think would be hard to actually believe.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 6:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Decado wrote:
I don't see how a demi-human Tenkai would convince the various towns and factions that make up the rebel armies support that their cause is one that would benefit the humans of the nation rather than the demi-humans.

Suikoden tends to be quite political and I don't think a demi-human would be able to drum up the support needed for a successful rebellion. Not because they are not capable of such a task but because society in the Suikoden world tends to be very strict. Dwarves deal with dwarven business, elves with elven business - each to their own. How would en elf convince human leaders that his cause is for the benefit of the humans of the nation without them thinking he has a hidden agenda to empower the elves of the nation, possibly at the humans expense?

Yes it would be a good story but one I think would be hard to actually believe.


Why does that Tenkai have to prove that fighting alongside him is beneficial for the human race? I am sure it would be enough if the town is in grave danger to be destroyed by someone. Let's take Toto. If there came a Kobold with a kobold army that looked strong, don't you think the people would care about the race when it is their last hope? I think after they were rescued they might be grateful enough to keep on fighting that Tenkai. The only problem is that this Tenkai can't afford to lose even less than any other Tenkai so far, because one defeat might destroy all help by other races he got so far.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 6:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Political support is a bit more far-reaching than a saving a single village from destruction to use your example.

What is essentially happening in Suikoden is that the Tenkai is trying to convince very powerful leaders to rebel against the current authority and support a new order. I think the differences of race are too great for these leaders to pledge their support and loyalty to a demi-human leader.

Of course I'm sure the story would be well written and means would be found to do this if this did ever happen.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 7:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

A "demi-human" would probably just be looked at as a freak and social outcast in the world of Suikoden, I can't see races and nations putting differences aside because of it.
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Luceit

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 8:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:

Since it will be the sixth volume of a more or less popular it will look not so desperate as if it is the first or second volume of a game. When Suikoden takes this step with the next installment it will look to me only like a new perspective and not so much forced as if it was only done for the "sake of controversy" as you called it perfectly.


It depends on how the writing is. We've both agreed that this story will be a lot more difficult to write than all of the previous ones, and for the most part, difficult story lines are on the extremes; they're either done well or done poorly. Thing is, history plays a large part in Suikoden and non-human races have had a tenuous relationship with humans at best and they were persecuted at worst.
Quote:


I don't see how a demi-human Tenkai would convince the various towns and factions that make up the rebel armies support that their cause is one that would benefit the humans of the nation rather than the demi-humans.

Suikoden tends to be quite political and I don't think a demi-human would be able to drum up the support needed for a successful rebellion. Not because they are not capable of such a task but because society in the Suikoden world tends to be very strict. Dwarves deal with dwarven business, elves with elven business - each to their own. How would en elf convince human leaders that his cause is for the benefit of the humans of the nation without them thinking he has a hidden agenda to empower the elves of the nation, possibly at the humans expense?

Yes it would be a good story but one I think would be hard to actually believe.


True. Typically, the Tenkai star has very little personal agendas and he's also working for the good of the people. Though the same thing can be said of non-human races within Suikoden, they usually only join the Tenkai to protect themselves and not because they're fully on his side. Some rare examples would be SoDs like Ridley and Chaco, who end up joining your cause for more than the reasons I listed alone. Perhaps the biggest problem a non-human Tenkai would have would be to establish positive rapport with the other non-human races, because they have little contact with each other.
Quote:


Why does that Tenkai have to prove that fighting alongside him is beneficial for the human race? I am sure it would be enough if the town is in grave danger to be destroyed by someone. Let's take Toto. If there came a Kobold with a kobold army that looked strong, don't you think the people would care about the race when it is their last hope? I think after they were rescued they might be grateful enough to keep on fighting that Tenkai. The only problem is that this Tenkai can't afford to lose even less than any other Tenkai so far, because one defeat might destroy all help by other races he got so far.


It's possible, but not all the people you meet will be in dire danger. Also, there will be people who are stubborn and they'll simply say that they refuse to join you because you're not human. The people you save may not have enough influence as well to help your cause.

Quote:

Political support is a bit more far-reaching than a saving a single village from destruction to use your example.

What is essentially happening in Suikoden is that the Tenkai is trying to convince very powerful leaders to rebel against the current authority and support a new order. I think the differences of race are too great for these leaders to pledge their support and loyalty to a demi-human leader.

Of course I'm sure the story would be well written and means would be found to do this if this did ever happen.


It depends on the next region. For the first five Suikoden games, lack of participation, exposure, power and numbers made it impossible, but if the next Suikoden had participation of many demi human races in the ruling system, it just might work.

Quote:

A "demi-human" would probably just be looked at as a freak and social outcast in the world of Suikoden, I can't see races and nations putting differences aside because of it.



Sad but true. Massive stigmatization doesn't dissipate simply because of one war. The non-human race will already need to be on good terms with humans to a certain extent for it to be viable.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I agree that is will be difficult.
But I want to point out that, although many persons seem to dislike other races, there isn't so much actual hatred that would make it impossible to work alongside another race. The kobolds fought on your side in Suikoden one and two had the Wingers as well. In three the ducks, who had, I admit, a better relationship to other grasslanders and in IV you have the mermaids as you have in five the beavers.
Since it possible for them to join a human being it must be possible to make humans join the cause of another man of a different race. Well, that would certainly be more likely if the humans in that country were the minority and not as always the majority...
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Luceit

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 4:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:

I agree that is will be difficult.
But I want to point out that, although many persons seem to dislike other races, there isn't so much actual hatred that would make it impossible to work alongside another race. The kobolds fought on your side in Suikoden one and two had the Wingers as well. In three the ducks, who had, I admit, a better relationship to other grasslanders and in IV you have the mermaids as you have in five the beavers.


However, arguably the reason why they joined is because the humans helped them and also have rather good rapport. For example, in Suikoden 1, the Kobolds join McDohl because the Scarlet Moon Empire was persecuting them, as did the elves who survived the burning of their village. In Suikoden 2, the Kobolds and Winger join you because they want to protect Two River and also show the Two River humans that they can fight too, as previously, the Wingers were looked down upon, despite being one of the oldest races there. In Suikoden 3, there was no problem with the ducks, as they were already affiliated with the rest of the Grassland tribes. The same can be said of the lizards, though they were understandably less trusting of the Zexens initially. In Suikoden 4, the mermaids join you because you helped save them from being caught and the elves did it to help protect themselves. Finally, in Suikoden 5, the beavers joined because the hero helped save them from complete extinction.

One thing all of them had in common: Someone saved them and it was not in his own interests. If there was a non-human who could pull off such a feat, I believe that it would be highly possible for a plausible story to take place.

Quote:

Since it possible for them to join a human being it must be possible to make humans join the cause of another man of a different race. Well, that would certainly be more likely if the humans in that country were the minority and not as always the majority...


True. In a frozen region, that might be possible since non-human races may get the advantage in survival.

Anoth thing I wanted to add: So far the conflict has been humans versus humans. Would a non-human race care enough to fight humans if shove comes to push?
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 5:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Luceit wrote:
Quote:

I agree that is will be difficult.
But I want to point out that, although many persons seem to dislike other races, there isn't so much actual hatred that would make it impossible to work alongside another race. The kobolds fought on your side in Suikoden one and two had the Wingers as well. In three the ducks, who had, I admit, a better relationship to other grasslanders and in IV you have the mermaids as you have in five the beavers.


However, arguably the reason why they joined is because the humans helped them and also have rather good rapport. For example, in Suikoden 1, the Kobolds join McDohl because the Scarlet Moon Empire was persecuting them, as did the elves who survived the burning of their village. In Suikoden 2, the Kobolds and Winger join you because they want to protect Two River and also show the Two River humans that they can fight too, as previously, the Wingers were looked down upon, despite being one of the oldest races there. In Suikoden 3, there was no problem with the ducks, as they were already affiliated with the rest of the Grassland tribes. The same can be said of the lizards, though they were understandably less trusting of the Zexens initially. In Suikoden 4, the mermaids join you because you helped save them from being caught and the elves did it to help protect themselves. Finally, in Suikoden 5, the beavers joined because the hero helped save them from complete extinction.

One thing all of them had in common: Someone saved them and it was not in his own interests. If there was a non-human who could pull off such a feat, I believe that it would be highly possible for a plausible story to take place.


And that was what I tried to say: If someone saves you and is strong enough to protect you, you might get over the fact that he is a kobold or any other race but human. If the only help they can get is from a mermaid, people would probably accept it. Most people were able to fight under the leadership of a human together with any other race, so the hatred is not so big that it makes such a thing impossible. One reason why this has never happened vice versa, because demi-humans don't have so much contact with humans and don't care so much about them and they are mostly not really strong enough to fight against any army in the world... If they were stronger, a leader of such a force could unite non-humans and humans, I think.

Quote:
Quote:

Since it possible for them to join a human being it must be possible to make humans join the cause of another man of a different race. Well, that would certainly be more likely if the humans in that country were the minority and not as always the majority...


True. In a frozen region, that might be possible since non-human races may get the advantage in survival.

Another thing I wanted to add: So far the conflict has been humans versus humans. Would a non-human race care enough to fight humans if shove comes to push?


As I said, known habitats of demi-humans weren't just not strong enough to make an impact or even rescue themselves all alone. In a region like you suggested the concept might be right the other way.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The Tenkai needs to have a special charisma and an inspiring leadership personality. The leader also needs to be somewhat neutral to all the races and also politically, witness Thomas. Humans are kind of the neutral middle ground between different races. Elves and dwarves are distrustful of humans, but outright confrontational with each other, and Wingers and Kobolds both find something in Humans that they can relate to. Humans also are obviously the most widespread and least limited of the races in the Suikoden world. While some live only in a forest, or the seas, or near lakes and rivers, humans are able to settle in absolutely everywhere. An army lead by a mermaid would likely have to fight most of their battles at the sea.

This also means that a majority of the army is always going to be a human, and they are likely to want a human leader. Maybe a half-breed could still instill the necessary trust, but a full Kobold, Winger or Beaver would likely fall short in uniting many differing factions. It's not impossible, but it seems unlikely.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 6:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Yep. I’d love it. However the suikoden community might not be ready for such a bold move but just the same I would love it if they have a Kobold hero. I would cream my pants every damn day from it’s initial announcement, to it’s release and until I get to buy it and play it.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I usually like Dwarves but after S1 their all HEY lets dig. Elves keep to themselves. Kobolds seem far to simple minded. and every other race is far to reginol based to care about (i.e ducks, Nay Kobolds etc)

I think sticking with Humans is the right place to go but i'd like them to talk more. Maybe have a girl who isent dressed in skimpy cloths.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 3:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Another thought on the dwarves: in S1 they looked all so scary and powerful and stuff. In S5 (let's forget 'bout the guy in S3) they were really really pitiful..
Anyway a Tenkai from another race is definitely something else. I could imagine beeing prejudiced and stuff in the beginning and later drawing people around you..
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Sialeeds wrote:
Another thought on the dwarves: in S1 they looked all so scary and powerful and stuff. In S5 (let's forget 'bout the guy in S3) they were really really pitiful..
Anyway a Tenkai from another race is definitely something else. I could imagine beeing prejudiced and stuff in the beginning and later drawing people around you..
I hope we see some dwarves with backbone real soon like in S1. I also hate how they're all midgets. i mean sure dwarves are smaller then humans but only by alittle bit in most fantasy based storys.

Average Human around 6Ft Tall
Average Dwarf around 5Ft 4inch
Average Suikoden Dwarf as of Suikoden 5 maybe a foot tall.
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