Suikoden Ugly and Infamous Knowledge Oblique Xperience

Suikox Home | The Speculation Shelter | Tablet of Stars | Suikoden Timeline | Suikoden Geography |Legacies


  [ View Profile | Edit Profile | Nation System | Members | Groups | Search | Register | Check PMs | Log in | FAQ ]

Would it be better if the elves had a country??
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic     Forum Index -> Culture & Geography Discussion
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
TruePerception

Blind Eye


Joined: 12 Feb 2006
Post Count: 4377
Location: Ceresfjellet
478325 Potch
1000 Soldiers
7777 Nation Points

PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I think Two River is a bad example of harmony between its races. The town is racially seperated, humans to the south, kobolds to the north, and wingers in between, and the only event which truely brought them together is being attacked by Highland, and this wasn't to protect the races of Two River, but to protect Two River itself, their home. The only example of harmony in that community that we saw is that Ridley and Makai worked together to maintain the community before Kiba came to attack.
_________________


Daily Funny Award for May 1st, 2008
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Sophita

The Wee Kitty Grand Duke Defense Brigade


Joined: 13 May 2004
Post Count: 4744
Location: Reina Mia
498078 Potch
1330 Soldiers
2725 Nation Points

PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

What would it do? The elves are already living in self-sustained communities almost totally independant of the human/winger/kobold/nekobold/beaver/chupacabra communities, and I think it's clear that they don't really respect human authorities - look at the Na Nal troop in Suikoden IV; Kwanda and the elves in Suikoden I. They already are living in little nations.

I think the elves, for the most part, are deeply racist. They segregate themselves from society, demean members of "lesser" races like humans. There are a few so far who aren't - and those raised away from the community (Paula, Nei) don't seem racist at all - but I think the culture of the elves does tend to place them higher than any other race and shun meeting people outside their little enclaves. Thus, yes, most elves grow up to be racist.

I also agree that Tworiver isn't a really good example. Three segregated communities in one; that's not really racial harmony. I think the best examples are, oddly enough, probably each armies headquarters - you have people of all walks of life, all races, living together, completely unsegregated.
_________________

SCII month continues! DueFiumi.com
John Layfield wrote:
But bubbles... children love bubbles! XD
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
TruePerception

Blind Eye


Joined: 12 Feb 2006
Post Count: 4377
Location: Ceresfjellet
478325 Potch
1000 Soldiers
7777 Nation Points

PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Well castle1 wasn't a good example either since the elves, kobolds, and FuSuLa all hung out at that one cliff with Kai, though this is just an unfortunate mistake on konami's part to me. I think the castle in S3 did the best job of mixing the races.
_________________


Daily Funny Award for May 1st, 2008
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Sophita

The Wee Kitty Grand Duke Defense Brigade


Joined: 13 May 2004
Post Count: 4744
Location: Reina Mia
498078 Potch
1330 Soldiers
2725 Nation Points

PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Aren't there at least some mixed regiments, though? I'm pretty sure Rubi serves with some humans.

In S3, there are only so many places to stand if one doesn't want to get pelted whenever the weather changes for the worst. (Honestly, poor Budehuc looks like it's about to fall down.)
_________________

SCII month continues! DueFiumi.com
John Layfield wrote:
But bubbles... children love bubbles! XD
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
ard

Einherjar


Joined: 25 Oct 2005
Post Count: 6344
Location: Abarro
804051 Potch
178 Soldiers
2 Nation Points

PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:

Quote:
ardPSiKo wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
No. I dont think so. Having an elf country will lead to more racial discrimination between them and the humans. If there will be an elf country, it is possible that the humans will be treated like slaves there. In protest, the human countries will enslave the elves, which will definitely lead to another war.

Sounds like a good story for another episode of Suikoden to me.

You think so?


What i was trying to say is that this racial discrimination leading to a big war idea might be a nice scenario for a future Suikoden, seeing as there always is a big war in every Suikoden.
Also, we could learn a lot more about the elves of Suikoden if they would play an important role, instead of humans (who get the most important roles every time), by having their own large nation for example instead of just multiple small settlements as we have seen before.

Back on topic, having a nation like this would not help and only create more distance between elves and other races at all in my opinion, segregation does not work no matter where it occurs. It's everybody's narrow minds that keep people separated from eachother. Sadly, sometimes a bloody war is the only way to let people clear up their minds and be more open, to bring two races or nations together (that's why i think it might be an interesting scenario).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Etenralmaiden




Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Post Count: 11

0 Potch
0 Soldiers
0 Nation Points

PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 12:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The question I've been asking myself forever is wether humans and other races can interbreed, we've seen SPOILERSkyrilSPOILERSEND but I guess he was the only obvious one. I personnaly always thought of Paula and most of all Urda as halves...
_________________
I came back for love!!!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Arcana

The Engineers


Joined: 25 Jan 2005
Post Count: 2035
Location: Lion's Maw
190546 Potch
200 Soldiers
0 Nation Points

PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 1:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I'm wondering whose perspective of "better" we're talking about. I mean, from the elves' perspective, having their own little community where no one else can bother them, where they can exert their own sovereignty, and where they can reject immigrants (ha ha) may be an excellent way to defend their self-interests.

I know that racism is bad, but if the elves stay hidden and never interact with humans, then why should they worry about racism? If humans never see elves (humans by far are more tolerant than elves are) then humans won't have to worry about racism, either. Why is it, exactly, that the elves should learn tolerance? If they're a tiny nation that has little to no influence on the rest of the world, then they, in the end, are insignificant.

Really, it's only relevant if the elves are either very powerful as a nation, or very numerous and reproduce such that they'll quickly need to expand beyond their original borders. But remember, we're in a medieval world where travel is difficult and news travels slowly, and land is plentiful.
_________________
Woo, 2000 posts as of Tuesday, 2007 August 28.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
uwangski

Lilly's Loyal Guards


Joined: 21 Feb 2006
Post Count: 3065
Location: Aya Sankha
701224 Potch
200 Soldiers
32 Nation Points

PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 1:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Etenralmaiden wrote:

The question I've been asking myself forever is wether humans and other races can interbreed


I have no idea whether they can or cannot, but that would be cool if true. In a scientific study (the real world), it shows that mixing of races produces better results (I mean physically beautiful). Of course, it will take a lot of time to see clearly the results.

Me, I'll be happy to marry an elf, but there's no elf here, unfortunately.

Arcana wrote:

that the elves should learn tolerance?


That's good, but the thing they really need to learn is that not all humans are evil.

Now, if the elves indeed have a nation of their own, they can reject immigrants all they want, but still racism will not stop. If there was an isolated case wherein an elf was killed by a human, the elves' rage will spark like it was a racial discrimination meant to disturb theit peaceful way of isolation.

Supposed there were no Filipino immigrants anywhere, and we will only hide here in our beautiful little country, will racism stop? Sadly, no.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Arcana

The Engineers


Joined: 25 Jan 2005
Post Count: 2035
Location: Lion's Maw
190546 Potch
200 Soldiers
0 Nation Points

PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 2:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The question is not, "Will starting a nation of elves only stop racism?" but, "Is it better"?

I don't think the issue of trying to stop racism or not really factors in as a big reason why elves should or should not have their own nation. It's not like people go around asking if giving the Palestinians their own state will stop racism. That's not really the point of why they want their own nation. Although we can't speculate why the elves in our theoretical fantasy world will want their own nation, I can assure you that "stopping racism", at least within the elven community, probably wouldn't be on the top of the list. They'd be more concerned with issues of security, economics, and quality of life before tolerance and eliminating racism. Remember, isolationaism is a good short-term method to reduce violence. If there are racist people (i.e., humans) who keep angering the elves, then the easiest thing to do is not to teach elves that not all humans are bad, but to throw out the evil humans and not allow any more in.
_________________
Woo, 2000 posts as of Tuesday, 2007 August 28.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
Eden

Private Godwin Army


Joined: 17 Feb 2006
Post Count: 6220
Location: Doraat
558571 Potch
0 Soldiers
0 Nation Points

PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 6:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I don't know where they should settle down? I won't mention a case in the real world by name in which a "group" declares there own country and faces restriction and hate. In the suikoden world many wars and battle are fought for land. Of course it is at first for the mere survival or to overcome the current regime, but in the end everything works also as getting an own land to live in as motive... I can't see a nation who would give the elves a an own country. Would they try to sell a whole race some land? Where is the potch supposed to come from? Elves aren't a nation of merchants who are rich enough to make such monstrous tradings.

They can't leave the known continent to search for a place that belongs to no-one... I don't think they will find such a place. So they would probably have to fight for a place to live peaceful... wait, something is wrong with that... Firts thing is that they aren't strong enough to annect a whole part of a nation and defend it afterwards. And second there wouldn't be peace, in fact there would be a lot more crimes commited than it would probably happen under any other circumstances.
I recognise that a whole nation containing of one single race with the same beliefs and aims will be rather peaceful inside the nation, but probably not so peaceful outside the borders...
_________________


The Fool
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
RedCydranth

Ice Dragons


Joined: 24 Jun 2005
Post Count: 3384
Location: Crystal Valley
3650446 Potch
194 Soldiers
100 Nation Points

PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Eden, I don't think anyone is suggesting that all the various elven tribes of the world all congregate and form a country, but more like in a future suikoden have a nation of elves with their own borders and governments.

I read through this whole topic and it got quite out of hand about racism. It appears that several of you want the racism between elves and humans to stop. Its just this form of belief that the elves hate the humans for. Humans seem to think they call the shots and say what eveyone else in the world should and should not do. Elves just want to be left alone and the humans always try to come around and change the elven way of life with trade agreements and such things that the elves truly have no desire for. If you want to call for acceptance, why not start with yourself and acceot that elves are different and that they don't desire to be like humans and shove their beleifs down eachother's throats. We have yet to see in any suikoden, an instance where the elves initiated a hostile act towards humans. However we see wars betwen humans all the time. I firmly believe that the elves, if given a nation, would be a very secluded and peaceful nation. They'd be like Switzerland. Not for or against anything politically, they just want to be left the hell alone.

I don't think we'll see an actual nation of elves though because Suikoden likes to make nations a cobblepot of races. In each game there are at least three races mixed about in the borders of each nation. Also, I don't think there's a congrgation of elves large enough to form a nation. At most they'd have their own city, like in Suikoden I.

I don't know if there is an ability for a half-elf in suikoden. I would suppose not since they are not a form of human, but their own seperate species. It would be like wondering if penguins can mate with eagles because they're both birds. I don't know a whole lot about Suikoden Tactics but I do know what Kyril's parents were and that does open the door for mixed breeding, however I think that was a special instance. His mother isn't exactly normal, now is she?

[quote=uwangski]In a scientific study (the real world), it shows that mixing of races produces better results (I mean physically beautiful).[/quote]

How can you form a scientific study based on an opinion? What one person finds beautiful another may find repulsive. If you had told us there was a study that showed interbred racial children were heathier and showed a higher immunity to certain diseases or something, you'd have some sort of point, but to say they yeilded prettier looking people is absurd. Thats purely an opinion.

To be honest the though of a Kobold-Winger freaks the crap out of me. Or what would the results be if a Nay and a regular Kobold bred? Yikes. I really don't think there is mixed breeding in the Suikoden world though, or we would have seen at least one instance that wasn't a special one time case like Kyril.
_________________
I'm sorry and I apologize are the same thing.
Except at a funeral.

Fantasy Football (NFL) Sign Ups in Sports Forum!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
John Layfield

Last Literature D-Line


Joined: 22 Jan 2005
Post Count: 6231
Location: Saint Dragon
509933 Potch
9300 Soldiers
3525 Nation Points

PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

RedCydranth wrote:
We have yet to see in any suikoden, an instance where the elves initiated a hostile act towards humans.


The arrest and imprisonment of several citizens of the Scarlet Moon Empire based purely on their race during the Toran Liberation War, as well as the arrest and imprisonment of an elf due to his consorting with same citizens.
_________________
One day, I shall come back. Yes, we shall all come back. Until then, there must be no regrets, no tears, no anxieties. Just go forward in all your beliefs and prove to me that I am not mistaken in mine.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Br4ve

Team Brave


Joined: 06 Jun 2006
Post Count: 37
Location: Ryube
0 Potch
0 Soldiers
0 Nation Points

PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Beethoven4567 wrote:
I think that maybe even if the majority of eleves are racist, that does not mean they want to invade human settlements and kill/destroy humans. They just don't want to have anything to do with humans simply because of the elves' perceived self-image as being superior than humans.

However, i want to ask all of you one question. If the Toran Republic is invaded by other nations in the future, do you think that the elves will answer the Toran President's call to go to war against the enemy country by participating in the frontline battles against the enemy army or will the elves simply just guard their settlements without giving a damn about the Toran humans?


Potentially I think some Elves would be forced into fighting alongside the Toran Republic if they felt their settlements were being threatened. I mean elves are arrogant for sure but not all of them are stupid so you would hope that some would put aside their pride and help kick some ass. Although majority you would think would'nt feel they had to do it out of obligation but rather to protect their own interest. Then again the elves that join you in suikoden I (besides maybe one of them) seem to perceive humans as equals (or something close to that) so maybe im being a little harsh on our elegant and long eared friends here.
_________________



Even at his most powerless mans existance is never without meaning...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
Rezard




Joined: 16 Aug 2005
Post Count: 87
Location: Tigermouth Village
215744 Potch
0 Soldiers
0 Nation Points

PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Why can't the elfs have their country? I see no trouble.

You guys are complaining that this would be racist, but I never heard anybody complain that all the countries introduced so far have a population composed 90% of humans. Why not have a country composed of 90% elfs?

I think different counties and communities make the suikoden world richer:
Crazy theocracy, good.
Evil empires that make weaker countries into slaves, better.
Great non-human racist country, great!!!

It'd be extremely boring for all the country to be "politically correct".

[quote]I don't think we'll see an actual nation of elves though because Suikoden likes to make nations a cobblepot of races. In each game there are at least three races mixed about in the borders of each nation. [/quote]

The game doesn't need to take place in the elf nation, it can be in a neighbor country.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
John Layfield

Last Literature D-Line


Joined: 22 Jan 2005
Post Count: 6231
Location: Saint Dragon
509933 Potch
9300 Soldiers
3525 Nation Points

PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

No-one is saying that it wouldn't be interest as a story thread. The point being made is that the nation itself would be racist. Which is fine for a story, we're not debating whether it should be done or not, we're debating the moral values of the nation itself.

The elf nation people are laying out is a nation dedicated solely to support the interests of a single race over the others. Imagine a nation dedicated only to taking care of its white citizens. It's the same thing.
_________________
One day, I shall come back. Yes, we shall all come back. Until then, there must be no regrets, no tears, no anxieties. Just go forward in all your beliefs and prove to me that I am not mistaken in mine.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic     Forum Index -> Culture & Geography Discussion All times are GMT - 4 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Page 2 of 4

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
suikox.com by: Vextor


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
  Username:    Password:      Remember me