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Would it be better if the elves had a country??
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CZF123




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PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 2:14 am    Post subject: Would it be better if the elves had a country?? Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Won't it be better if the elves have their own country after the great tree settlement is destroyed???as elves were scattered all around..??
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uwangski

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 3:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

No. I dont think so. Having an elf country will lead to more racial discrimination between them and the humans. If there will be an elf country, it is possible that the humans will be treated like slaves there. In protest, the human countries will enslave the elves, which will definitely lead to another war.

A good nation is a nation wherein everyone is free to do as they please as long as they don't hurt one another, regardless of race. Let's take Two River as an example. Although they were blundered by Kiba and Klaus' plan, they were once again united, and "lived happily ever after." or so I thought...
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ard

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:

No. I dont think so. Having an elf country will lead to more racial discrimination between them and the humans. If there will be an elf country, it is possible that the humans will be treated like slaves there. In protest, the human countries will enslave the elves, which will definitely lead to another war.


Sounds like a good story for another episode of Suikoden to me. :mrgreen:
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John Layfield

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

It would be equatable to creating a white supremist nation. Just replace 'white' with 'Elf'.
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Camus the Noble

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Well, most of the Suikoden countries are racially homogenous, so it wouldn't really be that odd. However, it seems to me that the Elves simply don't reproduce quickly enough to populate such a country. Their population, judging from the Elven communities we've seen, is clearly many, many times smaller than that of humanity.

But were the Elves actually "scattered" after the Tree was burned down? We know that Kirkis, Sylvina, and Rubi went back. Stallion left, but he probably would have anyway. The only way you could possibly argue that they were "scattered all around" would be if Roland Lazarus was originally from the Great Forest, but he implies in Suikoden III that his home is north of Zexen, which would likely place it in the Nameless Lands.

Anyway, to answer the question, would it be "better?" Probably not. From what we've seen of the Suikoden world, people are fiercely proud of their species. Judging from the games, Toran is probably the region with the most racial strife, and it's also one of the most racially segregated regions. So, yeah. If there were an Elven country, it would probably lead to much wars and chaos.

uwangski has the right idea. There really shouldn't be any need for countries with borders drawn along racial lines.
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uwangski

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

ardPSiKo wrote:
Quote:

No. I dont think so. Having an elf country will lead to more racial discrimination between them and the humans. If there will be an elf country, it is possible that the humans will be treated like slaves there. In protest, the human countries will enslave the elves, which will definitely lead to another war.


Sounds like a good story for another episode of Suikoden to me. :mrgreen:


You think so? I actually based this idea on real life. Kinda like the Islam and the Christians. Some (take note: SOME) Christians hate Muslims for being terrorist, while some (again, take note) Muslims hate Christians because they "disobey" Allah. Obviously, these people are narrow-minded. As for my opinion, Christians and Muslims shouldnt be hating each other. I do believe that Allah and our God is the same, we only view them in different perspectives. An example is me, whether you view me as an excellent strategist, or you view me as a wrestling god. No offense, John Layfield!

To make the long story short, I want a world without religious matters getting involved in politics and wars. We should all be living in a world where everyone can "mix freely" with other cultures, religion or whatever.
Thank you, and may God (or Allah) bless us all!!!
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Beethoven4567

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

uwangski wrote:
No. I dont think so. Having an elf country will lead to more racial discrimination between them and the humans. If there will be an elf country, it is possible that the humans will be treated like slaves there. In protest, the human countries will enslave the elves, which will definitely lead to another war.

A good nation is a nation wherein everyone is free to do as they please as long as they don't hurt one another, regardless of race. Let's take Two River as an example. Although they were blundered by Kiba and Klaus' plan, they were once again united, and "lived happily ever after." or so I thought...


I agree with you. A good nation respects the beliefs, etnicity, race, culture, and religion of every citizens. However, i don't think that elves are racist. Yes, true, elves tend to stick with their own kind than mix around with humans, but every now and then, we see elves like Paula in Suiko 4 mixing with humans in the Gaien Knights. And, elves tend not to discriminate against humans in Toran because they realized that humans have atoned for the sins of Kwanda Rosman by toppling the Empire and replacing it with a republic.

During the Islamic Rule in Jerusalem centuries ago, Muslims, Jews, and Christians lived side by side in peace, and Muslim rulers never force non-Muslims to convert to Islam. However, later during the early 20th century, some corrupt Ottoman ruler orders the massacre of Christian Armenians in a major act of genocide. That does not mean Muslims are at fault, it was the Ottoman that should be blamed, much like how Kwanda wasn't at fault for torching elf village because he was under a spell. It was Windy's fault for the suffering of not only eleves, but other races in Toran. Many people got killed during the Toran Liberation Wars and it's all Windy's fault!
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Camus the Noble

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Beethoven wrote:
And, elves tend not to discriminate against humans in Toran because they realized that humans have atoned for the sins of Kwanda Rosman by toppling the Empire and replacing it with a republic.


Do we know this? Yes, Kirkis, as the new leader would probably manage to establish good relations with the humans, but it's likely that at least some anti-human sentiment would remain among the general populace. Of course, there's almost certainly quite a bit of animosity still between the Elves and Dwarves.

Quote:
However, i don't think that elves are racist.


I disagree. I think the Elves are very racist. They look down on humans for their stupidity and shorter lifespans, and spread nasty rumors that the Dwarves eat Elves. Even if what you said about Toran is true, that's only one community, and one that's been through a series of dramatic events that would likely alter any culture's worldview.

You used Paula as an example of the Elves' supposed tolerance. However, Paula was raised in Razril, after her mother was exiled. So, the Na-Nal Elven community managed to produce two non-racist Elves: Paula's mother and, later, Selma.

That sounds like quite a racist culture to me.
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uwangski

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 2:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Again, let us take note of the word "SOME." That's the keyword here, I guess.

Anyway, this may be somewhat off-topic, but there's a news here in the Philippines about an Islam believer who was discriminated when he applied for a job. Obviously, he was more than qualified but was skipped due to him being a Muslim.
See, what I mean here is that although Philippines give freedom of religion, these cases are inevitable as some people really are close-minded. Another example is me myself, when I was almost rejected in a specific school just because I was raised by a single parent. Of course, it is a separate case, but is therefore virtually impossible to say that everyone here accepts you.

I even heard some fellow Filipinos are being discriminated by foreigners, sometimes even here in our own country. These news includes Americans, Swedish, Irish, etc. The American, Swedish or Irish governments are not at fault since they are not really the ones who discriminated in totality.

Stop discrimination. That's all.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 3:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I don't think an elven country could work very well either. Look at how humans were treated by the elves in S1. They called them puny, pathetic, and just didn't want anything to do with them. Granted, they weren't violently racist, but they were still racist against anything that wasn't an elf. While there are always those few who aren't racist, the majority of the population are, and I don't think that that will change for a very long time, given their life span and stubbornness.
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John Layfield

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 3:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Chris_Lightfellow wrote:
I don't think an elven country could work very well either. Look at how humans were treated by the elves in S1. They called them puny, pathetic, and just didn't want anything to do with them. Granted, they weren't violently racist, but they were still racist against anything that wasn't an elf. While there are always those few who aren't racist, the majority of the population are, and I don't think that that will change for a very long time, given their life span and stubbornness.


While I agree with the sentiments in the above post, I would classify imprisonment on purely racial grounds a form of violent racism.
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CZF123




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PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

So......bad effects is likely to be 80% and good 20 %........but i think it would be better even the elfs and human could not live together but guys think bout this would u likely wanted the elf to become rebelious and made hideout like the liberation army in S1....or....grant them independance make peace treaty with them.....ask them to set laws......how bout this??
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uwangski

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

CZF123 wrote:
So......bad effects is likely to be 80% and good 20 %........but i think it would be better even the elfs and human could not live together but guys think bout this would u likely wanted the elf to become rebelious and made hideout like the liberation army in S1....or....grant them independance make peace treaty with them.....ask them to set laws......how bout this??


The Philippines has a government, laws and constitution. Still, there is discrimination. The point is, racism is still inevitable even if you offer peace treaty or if they make up a set of laws.

The best way is to live in harmony as in Two River, Grasslands or Nay Island. Those are the best examples so far.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

"Giving" the Elves their own nation would likely be taken badly by them anyway due to pride.

I agree with uwangski, the best way in my mind to solve the problem between humans/elves would not be to further the divide by having two serpate nations that humans and elves can live on but to have nations, cities and villages that both (and all) races live equally. Obviously this is harder than is sounds but in the case of Tworiver - it took a lot of effort between humans, kobolds and wingers but they proved that they could live in a form of harmony. If all three races lived in seperate nations (or even were divided into seperate cities) then I doubt they'd have the same relationship.
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Beethoven4567

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I think that maybe even if the majority of eleves are racist, that does not mean they want to invade human settlements and kill/destroy humans. They just don't want to have anything to do with humans simply because of the elves' perceived self-image as being superior than humans.

However, i want to ask all of you one question. If the Toran Republic is invaded by other nations in the future, do you think that the elves will answer the Toran President's call to go to war against the enemy country by participating in the frontline battles against the enemy army or will the elves simply just guard their settlements without giving a damn about the Toran humans?
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