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Konami Avoiding Post-Suikoden 3 Timeline?
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Ujitsuna

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I don't think we can say that Muryama's departure affected Yuber's appearances because you can't prove otherwise that it was a coincidence. Each game since his departure has been set before Suikoden I. While there are reasons for Leknaat, Viki and Jeane's appearances, Yuber doesn't have the backstory that we know of that can justify him being in the Island Nations 150 years before Suikoden I.

Viki seems to be able to time travel.
Leknaat bears the Gate Rune and is involved with every conflict.
Jeane is the most mysterious, but since Suikoden V, gives the impression shes immortal or something.

Although those aren't set in stone, there were already clear reasons set for Leknaat and Viki. Just because Yuber doesn't appear in two installments out of five, doesn't mean hes not important, I'd say that his story is still potentially, yet to come.
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Aurelien

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Hayashi Ujitsuna, Yuber's story in the first three games is always the same. He's hired by the villain. That's it. There is no need for a complicated deep backstory to allow him to show up in Island Nations 150 years before Suikoden I, he can simply be hired by Graham Cray and then by the Godwins in Suikoden V. There you go, problem solved. Yet, Konami chose to stop him appearing for whatever reason.

Once again, I'm not saying for sure that it is the reason, but the point remains that Yuber has yet to make an appearance since Murayama's departure. Coincidence or not, that is the fact. And the fact is enough to support the idea that would allow us to start question Konami whether they still plan to push Yuber's story or not.
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Ujitsuna

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Aurelien, I think thats a bit cliche for Konami to use him that way. Besides it seems only Windy, and certain members of the Silverberg family know how to summon him. If Graham Cray and the Godwins did so, it would lost all it's merit. Although I can't dispute the fact Yuber hasn't been seen since Murayama's departure, I still think we'll see him again in a future Suikoden.
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Ryusei

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Rezard wrote:
Is it possible to keep quality good, when you reuse the same storyline over and over again?

Whoever said that Konami should use the same storyline over again and again for each game that they make? Konami could always come up with something, and veer away from this so-called "Suikoden formula" you're talking about. You yourself said it: they did it with Suikoden III. There are a million possibilities out there. You can't just say thaty the only thing that they could do is reuse the same thing over and over again, because they can] and they have proven that they could keep things fresh.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Hayashi Ujitsuna wrote:
Aurelien, I think thats a bit cliche for Konami to use him that way. Besides it seems only Windy, and certain members of the Silverberg family know how to summon him. If Graham Cray and the Godwins did so, it would lost all it's merit.

This is where I'm very different than you. You say that Yuber being hired is cliche. But you find no problem with Viki being in every game just because she sneezes. You have no problem with Jeane being in every game just because ... no reason? We don't even know why she's in every game. Despite the fact that Yuber is basically a "hired mercenary" (not exactly like Viktor and Flik, but you get the idea), it is somehow cliche for him to appear in every game by using that reason? That's his role, to be hired by the villain.

And why would being summoned by Graham Cray and Godwins make Yuber lost his merit? While we do know that Yuber came from a different world, it is never stated that he's always in that different world when he's not summoned by anyone. When he ran away at the end of the first three games, there was nothing that says that he ran away to the other world. Therefore, it is plausible to say that he is still somewhere in the Suikoden world. And by that, it is possible that Graham Cray and the Godwins to somehow cross path with Yuber to hire him.

In the end, what Yuber wants is to create as much chaos as he can. If being hired by Graham Cray and Godwins would allow him to do so, then why not?
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Actually it is not plausible for Leknaat to be in the prequels due to her story line with Windy in Suikoden 1, you would think she would spend her time hiding from her sister and protecting herself rather than running around the southern continent disturbing young boys. A post Suikoden 3 timeline should have Leknaat included, she is involved in it since she in a way is responsible for what Luc did, she is the one that took him and the rune out of harmonia and she is the one that rescued Sarah as well, personally i don't see how this is keeping the balance.

personally i think the prequels are great, they show us the events in the world that we never would have witnessed if we kept going forward after Suikoden 3, though personally i think they are showing actions of certain characters in the past to shed light on actions they might take in the future.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Ryusei wrote:
Whoever said that Konami should use the same storyline over again and again for each game that they make? Konami could always come up with something, and veer away from this so-called "Suikoden formula" you're talking about. You yourself said it: they did it with Suikoden III. There are a million possibilities out there. You can't just say thaty the only thing that they could do is reuse the same thing over and over again, because they can] and they have proven that they could keep things fresh.


When I first entered this forum, about a year or more ago, I remember there was a topic asking people if future Suikoden should be more like Suikoden III. Do you know what most of the fans replied? "I don't want to play a game that doesn't fell like Suikoden, if I want to play a game that fells different, them I will play another game."

And I think the whining wasn't just here, after Muruyama left, they seem to became very attached to the formula, so I guess even Japanese fans demand things to remain the same. I don't believe the developers have much freedom due to the market's demands.

Aurelien wrote:

The point isn't only about Yuber being not important because his absence. But also by the timing of his absence.

I'll do this based on chronological order:
1. Suikoden I, II, III released
All Yuber, Leknaat, Jeane, and Viki appeared
2. Murayama left Konami
3. Suikoden IV, Suikoden Tactics, and Suikoden V released
Only Leknaat, Jeane, and Viki appeared

Now is it merely a coincidence that Yuber's absence happened after Murayama's departure? Maybe, but maybe not.


I just realized that I still haven't answered the topic question. Is konami avoiding post-Suikoden 3 timeline? Yes, they are. Why? They want to make as much money out of Suikoden as possible, so they are prolonging the series needless.

This is very easy to notice if you see how many true runes are introduced each game, the last two games only introduced only one new true rune, they are saving true runes to do more games.

Now, if Yuber is related to the end of the series, which character do you thing they will avoid the most?
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Ujitsuna

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Aurelien wrote:
This is where I'm very different than you. You say that Yuber being hired is cliche. But you find no problem with Viki being in every game just because she sneezes. You have no problem with Jeane being in every game just because ... no reason? We don't even know why she's in every game. Despite the fact that Yuber is basically a "hired mercenary" (not exactly like Viktor and Flik, but you get the idea), it is somehow cliche for him to appear in every game by using that reason? That's his role, to be hired by the villain.


First of all, there are several differences, Jeane and Viki join the stars of destiny and fight for the hero. Yuber does join the stars of destiny, but only once, and against the hero. It's cliche if in every game Yuber is summoned by the villain of the game, it would be such a weak plot excuse for villains to gain power or the upper hand just by adding Yuber. Basically the script would run something like this:

Main villain: "Okay, we finally have an army of evil! Muahaha, now we just need to get Yuber, he fights for anything evil."

Yuber: "You called? Chaos chaos chaos."

[Hero and company shows up, Hero beats Yuber in fight.]

Yuber: "I suffer sooo much, I must now escape."

[Yuber teleports away.]

...If that happened in every game, how annoying would that be? It's happened in three of them and it is already obviously quite a generic unchanged formula they're using through the series. However, even though this is true, Yuber's importance isn't drained, he still plays a vital role when hes in the games, but because he works for one villain, doesn't mean he has to work for them all.
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Yvl

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:

First one, where is Pesmerga in Suikoden III?

Why does that matter? He dissapears for one game set in the present and you think he's been cut from the series?

Quote:

What plot loops and inconveniences? There was NO plot whatsoever between Yuber and Pesmerga in the games for God's sake. Am I playing a different series than you or something?

Fact: There was no mention about the importance between Yuber and Pesmerga in the game.

Therefore, if Konami scrapped the whole idea about them, there is NO damage done to the game, because there was no mention about such thing to begin with. There was nothing, Yvl. NOTHING.

This applies to any story, not just Suikoden. In any story, you need to plan things out in order for it to work, or there will be holes in the story. If the creator said that he wanted this to be a major conflict, they can't just cut that out, because the part of the plan that was revealed would be lost.

Quote:

What signs did Pesmerga show in the games to make you believe that he's an avatar of Dharma? I'm really curious.

Richmond's investigation of him in Suikoden II. His description of him resembles the "world of Dharma" Luc revealed in Suikoden 3.

Quote:

I don't know why he was not in Suikoden III, but I bet it was to save some fun for later.

I think it involved the stars of destiny, and the fact that Yuber appeared on them in S3.

Quote:

I don't know where Himuro got his source from, and I don't doubt if Kawano really did say that. However, I prefer to pay attention more to the product than what the staff said in the past (as far as I know, Kawano was involved in Suikoden IV, but not the rest?). While she might've said that Murayama's idea is still on, the fact remains that there was no development whatsoever about Yuber/Pesmerga saga in the game. If the plan was still on, why did they waste 2 Suikoden games (IV and V) by not including Yuber and Pesmerga in it? If their conflict is SO important, don't you think that Konami would've given more attention to them? Push their story, make the players understand their characters and purpose, and gather the player's attention. But yet, they did nothing. They simply exclude Yuber and Pesmerga.

Having them say something like that is pretty much the same as them coming on to this site, participating in this discussion, and telling you directly that you are wrong here.

The reason that they were not in the recent games should be obvious - they were somewhere else at the time. Yuber's not going to abandon Windy just to make an appearance in Suikoden IV. He doesnt even know what Suikoden IV is.

Quote:

The fact is, Murayama's departure did not affect Leknaat/Jeane/Viki's appearance, but it clearly affected Yuber's. So based on that, we can see that Konami definitely see the three ladies as important enough to be given appearance all the time with or without Murayama. While the same can't be said to Yuber who has yet to make an appearance after Murayama is gone.

It's different with them. With Leknaat, her presence is required in the series. For Viki and Jeane, you can't tell that they are important if they dissapear for a while. Yuber and Pesmerga... you can tell something huge is going on with them just by playing the first game.

Plus, remember the original topic - these games all took place out of chronological order, so instead of suggesting that they cut Yuber and Pesmerga out of the series, it instead reinforces the importance in the present.

Quote:

Hayashi Ujitsuna, Yuber's story in the first three games is always the same. He's hired by the villain. That's it.

...That's it? He doesnt say anything during the conflict that would lead you to believe he has ulterior motives? Nothing about a grudge against the true runes, nothing about wanting to cause chaos, which is one of the possible outcomes of the battles between the true runes? Alright then.

Quote:

This is where I'm very different than you. You say that Yuber being hired is cliche. But you find no problem with Viki being in every game just because she sneezes. You have no problem with Jeane being in every game just because ... no reason?

Those reasons have not been explained yet. You act as though the series has already ended.

Quote:

And why would being summoned by Graham Cray and Godwins make Yuber lost his merit? While we do know that Yuber came from a different world, it is never stated that he's always in that different world when he's not summoned by anyone. When he ran away at the end of the first three games, there was nothing that says that he ran away to the other world. Therefore, it is plausible to say that he is still somewhere in the Suikoden world. And by that, it is possible that Graham Cray and the Godwins to somehow cross path with Yuber to hire him.

In the end, what Yuber wants is to create as much chaos as he can. If being hired by Graham Cray and Godwins would allow him to do so, then why not?

As I said, he was with Windy at the time. You can't summon something that's already there.

Quote:

Why? They want to make as much money out of Suikoden as possible, so they are prolonging the series needless.

As I mentioned in my first post in this thread, I dont think that's the case, but rather to show us more of the world without running into the current set of characters which are sceduled to appear in the next game set in the present.
Okay, not scheduled, but if you use your head a little you can figure it out, with the endings shown in Suikoden 3.

Quote:

First of all, there are several differences, Jeane and Viki join the stars of destiny and fight for the hero. Yuber does join the stars of destiny, but only once, and against the hero. It's cliche if in every game Yuber is summoned by the villain of the game, it would be such a weak plot excuse for villains to gain power or the upper hand just by adding Yuber.

Which is exactly why I think that he will gain more exposure in the next game set in the present. The game, and his story, would become too shallow if that kept happening.
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Calvin

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:

Richmond's investigation of him in Suikoden II. His description of him resembles the "world of Dharma" Luc revealed in Suikoden 3.


Is that so? Both Yuber and Pesmerga are refered to as "Black Knights," and both are said to "be like shadows." Further they both wield swords of the same name. The only thing Richmond's investigations confirm is that Yuber and Pesmerga are very similar. The only reason we know about Yuber's love of Chaos is because he said so himself--no such info has been released about Pesmerga. In fact, the only thing one might be able to take out of this is that it is possible that the two are from the same world, or similar worlds. Pesmerga might very well enjoy chaos like Yuber, and not like Dharma at all. Its impossible to know that.

Quote:
As I said, he was with Windy at the time. You can't summon something that's already there.


During the time that Yuber was Windy's subordinate, Windy was actively looking for True Runes, so that still doesn't explain why you wouldn't have seen them. Windy was able to find the Soul Eater when it was hidden away in the "Village of the Hidden Rune," but she wasn't able to find the Rune of Punishment that was used to wipe out several fleets in a large scale war? Not to mention that fact that the Soul Eater itself was there as well. Perhaps they just decided to "forget" the whole conflict afterall.
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Ujitsuna

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Zonder wrote:
Quote:
As I said, he was with Windy at the time. You can't summon something that's already there.


During the time that Yuber was Windy's subordinate, Windy was actively looking for True Runes, so that still doesn't explain why you wouldn't have seen them. Windy was able to find the Soul Eater when it was hidden away in the "Village of the Hidden Rune," but she wasn't able to find the Rune of Punishment that was used to wipe out several fleets in a large scale war? Not to mention that fact that the Soul Eater itself was there as well. Perhaps they just decided to "forget" the whole conflict afterall.


Yes, well the Rune of Punishment drains the life of it's bearer, the Soul Eater doesn't. Windy is selfish and wanted that rune, not the Rune of Punishment. Besides, I remember her at the end of the game complaining about how the Soul Eater wouldn't accept her, adding that she thought it was the perfect rune for herself.
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Yvl

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:

Is that so? Both Yuber and Pesmerga are refered to as "Black Knights," and both are said to "be like shadows." Further they both wield swords of the same name. The only thing Richmond's investigations confirm is that Yuber and Pesmerga are very similar. The only reason we know about Yuber's love of Chaos is because he said so himself--no such info has been released about Pesmerga. In fact, the only thing one might be able to take out of this is that it is possible that the two are from the same world, or similar worlds. Pesmerga might very well enjoy chaos like Yuber, and not like Dharma at all. Its impossible to know that.

I can't remember the results exactly, but there were things like "His footsteps leave no sound" or something like that, which is exactly what led me to think that he had something to do with the world of Dharma Luc had envisioned. Again you're right, there is no proof, but my statements arent completely unfounded either.

On a side note, this theory was actually the first thing I posted on this site.
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Ujitsuna

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 5:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Yes, he wears a lot of heavy black armour, and still makes no noise at all, which has to mean something. Then Richmond seemed to come out of the blue with "he seems to be from another plane of existence."
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

It doesn't have to many much of anything. Zerase gets around like a ghost, but she isn't the avatar of the stars is she?


Didn't the creators of Suikoden also say that Pesmerga and Yuber's story will be concluded in the final Suikoden game? Where did all this Avatar of Dharma stuff come form? All Richmound says in Suikoden 2 is that Pesmerga appears to be a shadow of another existence. It is possible that he exist because of the Eight Fold Rune.
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Ujitsuna

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Thats the point though, Murayama (creator of Suikoden) said Pesmerga and Yuber's final showdown would be the end of the Suikoden world, but he has since left the Suikoden project, so we can't take what he said seriously, we can't take it as the truth. The current team working behind Suikoden may have made major plot decisions and altered the story considerably as to what Murayama had envisioned.
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