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Loyalty in the Suikoden world
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Zaj I mean Mike

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 10:00 am    Post subject: Loyalty in the Suikoden world Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Have any of you noticed that in Suikoden the loyalty a person has to a country seems random. Like Camus from S2 was born in the Nameless lands but is a Matilda Knight. Or Roland from S3 was an Elf from Toran but serves Zexen which is on entier different sides of the continet and he is and Elf which hardly ever leave thier home.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Nope.

Camus is from Kamaro but completed his knight's training in Matilda where you pledge an oath of loyalty. Due to Kamaro's tradition, only his older brother was allowed to enter the knights there. This tradition meant that Camus could never rise beyond the rank of squire, so he joined the Matilda Knights. It's apparantly a common thing for Kamaro Knights with older siblings.

Which leaves Roland as the sole anomoly. I don't think he was confirmed to be a Toran elf however. This isn't exactly a theory forged in iron, bro. You've got one 'random' alliegence in four games.
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Sialeeds

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I guess when Roland decided to live in Zexen region or had to live there,what we dont know I think then he pledged his loyality to Zexen because where else should he pledge to in that case.He didnt lived down there with the other Elves it seems
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Axiose

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

A place of birth doesn't necessarily mean you'd swear loyalty to it.

For example, Wyatt/Jimba was a Zexener through and through and represented Zexen in the first war, however when needs called for it he had to abandon his home land and family and start a new life in Karaya where he then swore his loyalty - okay, it's never actually stated but he openly fought against Zexen on the side of Karaya in battle at Iksay Village.

I would imagine that, like Viktor who fought for Toran even though they were (at the time) enemies of his home nation, people swear loyalty to which nation either needs their services (merc like people) or people who are swayed by the essence of the nation. I'm not wording my thoughts very well (bit medicated at the moment :() but basically I'm saying that a home nation wouldn't necessarily secure a persons loyalty - it would depend on a multiple of factors like their morality, the actions of the nation/government, their history (like Wyatt) or their fate (like Tir who leaves Toran).
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 3:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Viktor didn't really fight for Toran, though. He was fighting against the ruling party of Toran at the time. And after the Gate Rune wars, he left Toran with Flik, so he wasn't actively involved in building the Toran republic, either.

I don't think it's so random that people hold loyalties to countries they're not born in. Lots of people emmigrate from their home nation, for one reason or another. If you look in any country's army, I'm sure you'll find people fighting there who were born in another one. You don't have to be born somewhere to appreciate it. :D
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Sialeeds

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 4:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I guess they fight where they live or where they get paid for it
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Kalidor

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 5:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I think that far more often than fighting for a nation, the characters of the Suikoden world are fighting for an ideal that they believe in, or quite often because of friendship as well. This is my perception from the first two Suikodens at least. In the Toran Liberation war, characters like Viktor are fighting against the corrupt Empire because they have seen what the Empire does, and their own conscinces are against it. Also, Viktor has friends that feel the same way, probably leading him to further want to fight against the Empire. The same is true of people like Futch and Humphrey in Suikoden II. What they were concentrated on was getting to Crystal Valley to find out more about Dragons. However, Hero II stopped in along the way and helped them when he had many other things that urgently needed doing. However, he befriended them in their time of need, and then they repaid him by supporting his cause. It didn't have anything to do about where they were born, or their patriotism, it was them helping out their friends because they knew it was the right thing to do.
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eXistence of Fly

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 7:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Kalidor wrote:
I think that far more often than fighting for a nation, the characters of the Suikoden world are fighting for an ideal that they believe in, or quite often because of friendship as well. This is my perception from the first two Suikodens at least. In the Toran Liberation war, characters like Viktor are fighting against the corrupt Empire because they have seen what the Empire does, and their own conscinces are against it. Also, Viktor has friends that feel the same way, probably leading him to further want to fight against the Empire. The same is true of people like Futch and Humphrey in Suikoden II. What they were concentrated on was getting to Crystal Valley to find out more about Dragons. However, Hero II stopped in along the way and helped them when he had many other things that urgently needed doing. However, he befriended them in their time of need, and then they repaid him by supporting his cause. It didn't have anything to do about where they were born, or their patriotism, it was them helping out their friends because they knew it was the right thing to do.


Humphrey and Futch is kinda different though as with Riou helping them they pretty much saved the guys life (for the life of me i cant remember his name at this moment) and plus helped Futch find Bright, so thats really a debt that cant be repaid with just a hearty handshake and a SEE YOU since it pretty much voided the trip to Crystal Valley. (And what a handy location to do it too, not too far from Toran :-O)
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Leon Silverberg

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2006 6:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Maybe Roland leaved the Village Of The Elves at the time as it was burned down..he traveled to Zexen, he had luck and was happy with his new home and pledged loyality beacuase there was nothing else in his life for what he could have pledged loyality for
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Vincent Vingerhut

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

In today's times, it seems weird for people to fight for other states. But before the French revolution and the invention of the Nation-State, many individuals and groups would fight for states were they were not born.

For example the Turkish Tatars who fought for the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth or the Circassians and Greeks who fought for the Ottoman Empire just to name a few examples. My point is in those times loyalty towards a state was less common and mercenaries more common then in our times.
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uwangski

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 4:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

eXistence of Fly wrote:
Humphrey and Futch is kinda different though as with Riou helping them they pretty much saved the guys life (for the life of me i cant remember his name at this moment) and plus helped Futch find Bright, so thats really a debt that cant be repaid with just a hearty handshake and a SEE YOU since it pretty much voided the trip to Crystal Valley. (And what a handy location to do it too, not too far from Toran :-O)


I believe the road to Crystal Valley in Harmonia is closed at that time due to the war. (They were in Matilda territory and to get to Harmonia, you have to go past Highland.) So if they can't do anything at that time, why not whack some Highlanders for the time being, or help out so that the war ends soon enough that they can continue their trip to Harmonia. At the same time, you'll be paying for what debts or favors you owe.
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TruePerception

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Though Roland is quite loyal to the Zexen knights, his heart definately seems to still be with his homeland, as is referenced by his non-party dialogue on the Brass Castle bridge. This same dialogue would lead one to believe that he is in fact, not from Toran, but from somewhere in the Outlands/Nameless Lands area. I have mentioned this idea in the Character section, under the topic "Roland".
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Scrooge McDuck

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Bear in mind that people of those times were not as bound to their countries as we are now. There are plenty of unknown lands that people could build their house to live in solitary, and the government not exactly doing general census periodically. They didn't even have citizen identification cards.

Basically, you're free to stay anywhere as long as you pay taxes to the local government. People those days often migrated if they didn't like their current country's government. Still, they may close the borders in case of war or avoiding too many emmigration.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I think the many persons in the Suikoden world have got a huge national pride or at least for their cities. I have only played Suikoden 2 and 4 as yet, but there are many people with this attitude, e.g. Freed, Ridley, Chaco, Theresa and some more.
And there were fought many wars in the name of their home land...
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Of course there are exceptional individuals who are just plain loyal-to-the-death to their country/leader/king (Han Cunningham would be the most perfect example), but we are talking about general consensus here.

For most of Suikoden characters, though, it is not about their country. Rather, it is about their personal beliefs. Take not that the Silverbergs lend their hands to any side of war that fit their vision regardless of their nationality. Even Riou, who was from Highland, led the Dunan Army because he did not approve Luca Blight's actions.
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