Australian Drug Trafficker Executed in Singapore

[eXistence of Fly]

[Camus the Noble]

While I respect the right of Singapore to prosecute criminals that break its laws, that's not what this debate is/was about. It's about what Australians perceive to be a barbaric penalty being used in a relatively minor crime. I tend to agree with the Australian viewpoint.

As Filipe knows from my comments on the Stanley "Tookie" Williams case, I am completely, one hundred percent against the death penalty. And in my opinion, this is even worse than killing a murderer. It is a less violent and less malicious crime.

[Schala-Kid]

i watched this with interest. Van was from melbourne. he got involved with traficking to help his brother out of a large gambling debt. through his illegal activities, he saved his brother's life, but lost his own.

that doesn't make him a hero. it doesn't make him an idiot. the problem lies in that the work horses of the drug trade - growers, street pushers and smugglers get the bolton end of the deal here, while the masterminds get off and probably greese the politician and police's pockets.

i am totally against killing. i'm totally against killers being killed.

i found that with Van's case, it wasn't so much wanting him to be tried in a more lenient country, but to not face the death penalty.

while drugs are bad (mmmkay), there is some responsibilty that lies in a persons decision to use it - otherwise everyone in the world would be a drug addict - it starts as a decision to try a prohibited substance.

there's even more trouble with the "Bali 9" drug smugglers. these idiots were caught with information given by australian authorities, who knew full well, that if the information given to the indonesian police led to their capture could make them face the death penalty - they could've acted upon return to australia.

in a report, it said the news headlines and opinion pieces in singapore around van's execution was that australia was soft on drugs and every australian is disrespectful of other nations laws - schapelle corby, michelle lesly, the bali 9 and van ngyuen.

i believe we're strong on border security/drug smuggling into australia, i just believe we don't see that killing someone under any circumstance as punishment for their crimes solves anything at all.

[Prince Crisafulli]

We were discussing the subject of drugs in my politics class on Friday, and one girl called Helen suggested that drugs should be made legal so that they could be regulated, and therefore there wouldn't be as much as a problem in getting sterile needles for heroin, overdoses could be prevented etc. While I disagree with legalising any drugs for reasons of I hate people's lives being ruined by dependancy, there are good points in her argument. And regulated drugs are better than irregulated drugs, since at least then there's a legal limit and it would stop the drugs and prostitution related trades getting money in the underworld since drugs aren't profitable with the state selling them legally. If drugs and prostitution were legal, would gangs still be interested when the state had legalised drugs and special centres for sexual activity? I think not and that she does have a point economically, though I am morally against such a change.
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I am Prince Crisafulli of El Droyal

[Drizzt]

Well, I am not going to get immersed with the thorough conversations, so I will make this very brief. Carry on as much as you would like, if you do not have better things to do. Killing someone is murder. Execution is murder. If you kill a drug runner, you have committed murder. Try to dress it up as much as you can, but there is no justification for killing someone. I am not naïve to the fact that we war with each other all the time around the world, but that is that. I am sick of seeing people ‘cheering in the streets' when they hear someone is going to be executed. Do you want your country to be something more than ‘Third World'? Abolish the death penalty and maybe you will have that chance.

Lock these people up, they deserve that. But murdering them? Ah, we have enough of that going on in the world. There is no need to add to it. I don't need to try and sound like a ‘saint' with this, because I am not. But I do realise a great err when I see it.
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“Firbolgs die with honor,” Morten explained as the logs beneath Tavis began to burn. “We don’t beg for mercy. We don’t show pain. We just die.”
“Maybe we skin you alive,” Noote warned. “That hurt plenty." - The Twilight Giants, Book I.

[Arcana]

[Child of The Sea God]

Do your dirt and grab your nuts.
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Life is like a play, you're given the role that fate hands to you.
-Me

[Filipe]

[Hawk Thanatos]

Legally murder is only the unlawful killing of someone. However from a moral standpoint murder is the killing of anyone outside of self defence, I think that's what Traz was trying to say.

And don't give me that crap about the death penalty being punishment. The family of the one executed may be punished by it, but the executed isn't going to know he/she's dead, they're not going to be rotting in the ground thinking about the wrongs they have done, all the death penalty is about is revenge. It's about making others feel better not the wrongdoer worse.

All I can say is wait until the zombies come, then they'll be sorry they killed every person they caught with drugs.

EDIT: And I didn't know Schala-Kid was Australian! There's a few of us around here.

[Drizzt]

I am from Australia. I care not how people try to justify any law. All countries and regardless are screwed in their own way, and as such I would never complain or try to change these laws. Again, trying to justify 'killing' someone is not possible. Law enforcement and the media may try to, but in the eyes of many who can rise above what their 'authority' tells them, it would be murder.

Why would I care to force my beliefs onto someone else? This ain't some fancy religion here or anything. You are quite naive if you believe that in these countries, people have not 'danced around in the street' for these matters. All you would need to do; at the time, would be read the papers or look into the news on the internet. My eyes are not shut. However, that is not to say "Whoa everyone in the country does that! They are all monster!" A foolish notion if you think I meant that, truly. I like to think I 'hate equally', which means I do not sway too far into either side of the argument. I can read both sides of the story, and accept them both. Wether I would try to defend either way, is quite beside the point by far.

Cowboy? Please. There is no need for attempts of belittling comments around here. You need not embarrass yourself. The rest of the post seemed intelligent; misplaced, though intelligent. I can respect what you wrote for what it was, but your interpretation was way off. Have a good one.
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“Firbolgs die with honor,” Morten explained as the logs beneath Tavis began to burn. “We don’t beg for mercy. We don’t show pain. We just die.”
“Maybe we skin you alive,” Noote warned. “That hurt plenty." - The Twilight Giants, Book I.

[Starslasher]

You may be surprised at how many Australians, or residents at least there are. Including you and Traz and me (resident, not a citizen), there's Schala-Kid and Black Pesmerga, both in Melbourne. There's also a couple of Kiwis, like Falcon Critical and Shadow Wolf (wherever he may be).

Anyways, Traz, how would you deal with a murderer, found guilty of committing murder, and yet was not repentant afterwards? After giving him his time in jail, he's most likely going to kill again. A lifetime in prison isn't guaranteed to keep him out of the streets i.e. there's a chance of a prisonbreak. It's not supposed to be a retort, but a hypothetical question. Wouldn't the death penalty be the only way to get rid of this scum from society's gutter?
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Guardian of Greenhill & Devoted Protector of Oulan



Bork! Bork! Bork!

[Filipe]

[Drizzt]

Before I conclude my time posting here; I must remind everyone that I am not overly passionate towards this ‘issue' as you all. A quick post is all that was really necessary.

Well Starslasher, I would never have to even try and answer this question seriously; as it is not my job and it is not my place to deal with it. Opinion? Eh, no-one can honestly be truthful in any response they spurted out (wether they were trying to sound like a prophet, all high and mighty or not) UNLESS they had to experience the situation for themselves. No-one here can understand what those choices would feel like (including myself. They could try, but it would not be the same). Some scum-of-the-earth will never change. I have always thought that way. So what are you going to do? Hope that it never affects you, and prey that it never affects anyone else ever again. Either way, blindness such as this would never help out in anyway. The Wheels keep turning, and nothing can really ever be done. That is something you either have to accept, or blindly defend against as if they were your religious beliefs.

Hey, that topic got turned around. We are not talking about a murderer here are we? Just a drug runner? Whoops, you made me get carried away there.) Ah, Filipe. You could not have interpreted my post in any worse of a form then you did. But that is okay, you do not know me at all, so again I can accept your comments as largely misplaced, and move on.

Well, seeing as this topic has taken a large reversal to the title, you should either rename it, or close it off and make a new one in the regard you are mostly speaking of. Hmm, on that last note you mentioned, just about any family (whose husband/son/daughter/mother-regardless was killed) would want the murderer ‘sentenced to death'. It is human nature; very few would say they want him to live. But some of those feelings could be adrenaline-fuelled anger (which would be fare at the time). The family would not be capable of making the decision so readily, perhaps after some time had past, but not instantly. The concept of wether or not the murderer could try and ‘repent their sins' and change after a long period of rehabilitation and whatnot, is a large gamble. But if you killed 100 people, who is to say which of them could have really changed? Kill them all, and be done with it? Well, again I say I am glad that is not something I would ever have to decide.

That concludes my posting in this thread. Do what you will with it.
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“Firbolgs die with honor,” Morten explained as the logs beneath Tavis began to burn. “We don’t beg for mercy. We don’t show pain. We just die.”
“Maybe we skin you alive,” Noote warned. “That hurt plenty." - The Twilight Giants, Book I.

[Starslasher]

To me, you seem to be a bit too defensive about it. In honesty, some would say that for the scenario i've given, the death penalty is just, like with Felipe. I was wondering if you could give an alternative to it.

[goodbye]

To start with, I'm Australian - though that shouldn't really matter. Also I'll note that much of this is copied from when I discussed this elsewhere, people there were definately far less interested to debate with - most of them are 12 - 16 with knowledge of very little besides what they hear others say.

There were reports at the start of last year warning about Heroin becoming more pure, and thusly more dangerous due to the ramping up of production in Afghanistan again. It's been known before to be dangerous, and that's at a lower purity level than can be expected now.

As for the cries of murder, how is drug smuggling any better than murder? He wasn't an angel stealing bread to survive, he was involved in the distribution of commercial qualities of a highly illegal and increasingly dangerous substance. I can't (and shouldn't have to) stress enough how dangerous heroin is.

As a good friend of someone else's said in a movie I quite enjoy "Criminals thrive on society's understanding". The Australian media is an excellent example of that understanding. Are we supposed to take pity on those who want to make a dollar from the suffering of their fellow human beings? I think Singapore has made their message loud and clear, they will not tolerate people bringing drugs into their country. What's so wrong with that? Who's gonna want to be the next guy hung or shot for trying to get drugs into Singapore?

I don't feel sorry for him, what he did in my eyes constitutes utter disregard for human life. What if he'd succeeded and he didn't get caught? Would that have been a happy ending? Do you think he spared a thought to the lives he sought to ruin in order to make his better? He did a horrendously stupid thing, regardless of the risk to his own life and those who his cargo were to reach, got caught and dealt with according to a law which is not merely in place in that country, and a law which is far from being unknown.

And to update on the Bali 9 if people haven't heard yet: the two supposed 'ringleaders' are to be executed by firing squad, I know of at least two other life sentences and from there on I'm not entirely sure. But it appears that the panel of judges do see a line between life for this sort of crime, and death - it's not at all like they rub their hands together with glee every time they catch someone else they can kill for drug smuggling.