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Australian Drug Trafficker Executed in Singapore
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Filipe

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 4:29 am    Post subject: Australian Drug Trafficker Executed in Singapore Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

For those who have not been following this whole issue, today a 25 year old Australian man whose name I dont recall right now, was executed in Singapore. Now under normal circumstances this would fall under the death penalty debate issue, but in of itself this is seperate. I mean people have been making a huge deal over this because so many people were protesting, and demanding his sentence be commuted. Thinking that what right does the Singapore goverment have to execute a citizen of another country, that does not have the death penalty. Even the Austrailian goverment got involved trying to get his sentence commuted, but in the end their efforts failed, and he was executed this morning.

Now the issue becomes, did Singapore have the right to execute a citizen of another nation that does not have that same penalty, when said person commited a crime in their country. A crime mind you that has signs posted all over the place making it known that it is punishable by death, so they cant say he had no way of knowing. This is the question I am posing to all of you, for you to debate, and of course discuss. I am naturally going to post my thoughts on this issue following this paragraph as well.

So my thoughts on this whole issue is that the protestors need to get their minds around the idea that Singapore is their own nation. They have their own punishments, and they have the right to sentence someone to death for crimes they deem fit. Australia, nor any other nation has a right to tell them what punishments they can, and cannot use for crimes commited in their country. This is really just common sense, and while they are within their rights to appeal on behalf of this person, which they did, that doesnt change the fact that it's the choice of the Singapore goverment. This criminal, was trafficking drugs in Singapore, breaking the law blatantly. He even admitted that he was intending to sell that heroin to other people, so they cant claim it was for his own use either. Though that was clearly obvious by the sheer amount of heroin that he was carrying at the time. So this leads into the next issue, should he have been executed in the first place not only for this crime, but because he was an Australian citizen.

This is the most straight forward discussion I have made on this forum I do believe, because the issue is very simple here people. This individual knowingly went to this country to smuggle these drugs out of the country. This individual also clearly saw the signs posted all over the airport, and the like mentioning that these crimes carry the death penalty. Yet, he went and commited these crimes anyway in a sovereign country, and he didnt expect to face their penalties for the crime? Try to think of this with some reasoning people, just because he is a citizen of another country, does not make him immune from their punishments. You commit the crime, you do the time, or in this case you face the punishment so to speak. I think that Australia was completely out of line to tell Singapore what they should, and should not do with criminals in their country. The citizenship of said criminal doesnt make the least bit of difference, because the crime was commited there. Thats just my take on the issue folks, feel free to add your two cents in as well.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 5:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Well the person is commited the crime in Singapore not in Australia so it means that the person should be punished by the Singapore's law not Australia's law.

Well Australia always done the same thing with all citizen that commited crime outside the country (I dunno what will Australia done for terrorism case). In Indonesia there are two narcotic cases that involved with Australian. The australia tried to save them. Of course it's natural because that's a country should do to its citizen.
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Hawk Thanatos

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 5:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I think the guy was an idiot to try and smuggle heroin out of a country that has the death sentence for the crime however, John Howard (the Australian Prime Minister) didn't want the execution to take place because it would damage the relationship between the people of Singapore and the people of Australia. I personally didn't get worked up about it but I know a lot of people in Australia did.

Singapore had the right to execute the man, but I don't think it was the correct course of action in the circumstances. Australia hasn't executed anyone since the late 60s and the death sentance was abolished in the 70s, so for a lot of people in Australia this is a punishment that nobody would expect to be inforced on an Australian citizen.

People were trying to get Nguyen back to Australia for punishment right up to until he was killed but the problem was the Double Jeopardy law, since Nguyen had already been convicted for drug trafficing he couldn't go back to Australia and be tried for the same charges.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 6:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

hawkthanatos wrote:
People were trying to get Nguyen back to Australia for punishment right up to until he was killed but the problem was the Double Jeopardy law, since Nguyen had already been convicted for drug trafficing he couldn't go back to Australia and be tried for the same charges.


Therein lied the problem didnt it, in and of itself. I mean Australia couldnt try him again for a crime he was convicted of elsewhere, thus he obviously couldnt be punished there. Either way in the end, it doesnt matter what country your a citizen of, nor what punishment they have for crimes. You commit a crime in a country, you have to pay the price in that country whatever that might be. No matter how barbaric it might seem to you, no matter how savage it might be to the people of your own country. You chose to go and commit this crime, in this country so now you have to pay the consequences, no matter what the laws in your country are. Do I agree with the death penalty in this case, well for the crime itself no I do not, I think it's a bit harsh for any drug offence. However, in this case that is not the issue, but rather the laws, and the punishments of the land the crime was commited in. So absolutely I agree the man should have been put to death, according to the laws of Singapore which state that is the punishment for drug offences.

I think that if anything, the people of Singapore have more reason to be angry with Australia than the other way around. I mean I would be extremely angry as well if some other country came to mine, and told us what should, and shouldnt be the laws, and punishments here. If we want to change it, that is our perogative, and that is something we can decide on ourselves the severity of it. I dont blame Australia for trying to help it's citizen, however how they went about doing so, claiming their laws are barbaric should be abhorred. Thats just my two cents on the issue again, anyway.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 6:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

People have the right to an opinion and to an extent, act upon those opinions. Australia is of the opinion that the death sentence is barbaric and should be stopped, if they don't voice those opinions to Singapore (and other countries with the death penalty) then nothing will change. If Country X was prejudice against a minority and then Country Y came and said that discrimination was wrong (or barbaric) would you say that Country Y was wrong to say that?
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Different place, different ways, so I do agree that Singapore had the right to do it. After all, the drug trafficker's destination is undoubtly Singapore, and they wouldn't like it if bad stuff happens in their country so I think it's clear.
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ard

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

People who commit crimes should never receive mercy. I am quite clear about that. I highly dislike criminals.

In anyway the drugstrader should be punished in whatever way. If his sentence in Singapore would not be the death penalty but just a jail punishment, by the time he would have done his time in Singapore he should have been trialed and convicted in Australia as well. Drugs kill people, not just one but many. So i think it is nothing more than fair. Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth.
Killing people by selling them drugs is barbaric, not death penalties. people die a slow and painful death because people like him, so it is nothing but fare to end his chance for living a live. And he gets a quick an painless death.

Sentence regulations are soft these days. The max sentence i have seen here for murer is only twenty years, and that happened only once. For murder i tell you! Normally someone who commite murder does not get even more than five years!
We are to flexible and normal citizens are suffering because of that.
How would you feel if the person who could your relative will be free to walk the same streets as you within five years?
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

ard/psiko wrote:

Killing people by selling them drugs is barbaric, not death penalties. people die a slow and painful death because people like him, so it is nothing but fare to end his chance for living a live. And he gets a quick an painless death.



no one is making them take the drugs, they want to use them you know.

I heard theres one country that gives death if somone is caught drunk drinving, makes you really wanna be proud for doing such things in your home town eh?


anway, this is a tricky situation, what if somthing is switched? I don't know, when laws from differnt countries are in question it gets sticky, If I'm a man and live somwhere where I can have sex with 13 year olds, but come to a country where I can't and do so I get labled a sex offender, I think I read if I visit a country to hire 'kiddie prositutes' its fine, as soon as I come home, and people find out I get in trouble. but hey i did those actions where its legal.

I don't know, he knew he was commiting said crime, then again some peope think all drugs should be legal even heroin and stuff, so its a sticky situation. "let people do what they want if the're not harming others", so if somone wants to smoke crack letthem, and let the seller supply and the seller buy from the grower. *shrugs*

seems harsh though, but its fear tactics.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Singapore seems overzealous in their extent of punishing people. About ten or so years ago (has it realy been that long?) a kid was caught spraypainting graffiti on a public Singapore wall and his punishment was being caned. This wouldn't have been an issue but the deviant miscreant was an American. People got all up in arms thinking that a physical beating should not be the punishment for any crime. Now we have this drug trafficker who received the death penalty for something that in most other countries wouldn't even be a 10 year sentence. Singapore seems awfully stiff in their punishment but that is how they prevent crime I guess. Let me take a wild stab here, but do they chop off your hands if you steal an apple?

It is obvious that the majority of the world disagrees with Singapore on how they treat their criminals, whether they be from Singapore or not. It should be well known that you do not commit crimes without the knowledge thet if you are caught you will have to pay a penalty. While I do not agree with the exact actions Singapore takes, I do believe that if someone commits a crime on foreign ground they should be sentenced and serve their punishment there as well.

If America felt that criminals should go back to their native country to be punished, why do we have Saddam Hussein in a cage here in the States? Why is it that terrorists (although I still fail to see any crime Hussein actually committed other than running a country different to that of the United States) get different punishment than some british punk? A crime is a crime in the law's eyes. That is all a bit off topic though.

I do not think the death penalty should be abolished, but every nation has theb right to abolish it if they see fit. However just because you are from a country that doesn't have death penalties doesn't mean you are immune to it in the entire world. Anyone in a foreign country is subject to their laws, or that is how I believe it should be.

If a Texan goes to Australia and walks into a Sydney store and shoots everybody in there with an AK-47 and gets caught by Australian police, should he be sentenced in Australia or be shipped back to Texas where he WILL receive the death penalty? Australia is against the death penalty, but by sending him back they'd be advocating it. This is the exact opposite of the drug trafficker case. An australian went into a foreign country, Singapore, and committed a crime that by their law is punishable by the death penalty. By sending them back to Australia and not giving them their punishment it is saying to the drug trafficking community that they are immune to Singapore law. Sure they'd go back to Australia and serve a sentence, but that is better than death, is it not? As a nation Singapore has the right to excersize the death penalty and they do so, and as foreign nations we can not do anything about that.

If the penalty for stealing a dozen doughnuts in the country of Singapore is getting your eyes gouged out, you better not steal a dozen doughnuts while you're there. Simple as that. As outrageous a penalty as it is, that is still their way of life. For us to go in and tell them they are wrong is denouncing their country and slapping them in the face.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Ah I just have read my lecturer's slide. I've made some mistakes there.

So actually if there is a man done crime outside his country he can have trial by his country's law. Indonesian law allowed it in order to protect Indonesian citizen. There is also a case where this principe is work. Several years ago a man named Oki killed some peoples in America include Indonesian. His trial is in Indonesia and he was sentenced to death.

A country's crime law can be applied in another country if :
1. The citizen of another country is involved at the crime (I don't know whether as a victim, suspect, or both because I haven't got my crime law lecturer);
2. The crime is damaged another's country interest. For the example if country B's confidential document is stolen at country C and the thief is captured at country C, the thief can have his trial based on country B criminal law.

This principe can be used if the country's law allowed it.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2005 1:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Well, i live in Australia (not an Australian citizen...yet), and That was pretty big a few weeks ago. But the question of whether Van Truong should have been tried in an Australian court was never an issue. To the Australian people, the issue against Capital Punishment was in question.

As for me, It seems that nearly every Australian going overseas is being caught with narcotics at the airport. Van was not the first Austrlian to be caught with drugs in Southeast Asia. Before him, three cases were made in Bali of Schapelle Corby, underwear model Lelsie Michelle and nine teenagers known as the Bali Nine who were all accused of smuggling marijuana, ectasty tablets and heroin into the Airport at Denpasar. And i believe that for all three of them, the prosecution were pushing for the death sentence to the judges.
In the end, Schapelle Corby was found guilty and was sentence to 20 years, later reduced to 10; Leslie Michelle was acquitted and the Bali Nine i believe their trial is still going on. That or they are facing the shooting squad. News of the Bali Nine doesn't get that much coverage here in Australia.

The thing about the drug trafficking is that most of it is done in either SouthAsia/Middle East and the Southeast Asian regions. Afghanistan is notorious as being the world's largest producer of heroin, even today. Thailand also has farmers growing heroin. And to put a stop to this, the governments feel that it is necessary to have a somewhat "Zero Tolerance" policy when it comes to drug trafficking.

Do i feel that it is neccessary? Perhaps not. Life in prison would do just as well, and the family would be spared the grief of losing a family member. But will it stick as well as the death penalty?
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2005 2:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Starslasher wrote:
Well, i live in Australia (not an Australian citizen...yet), and That was pretty big a few weeks ago. But the question of whether Van Truong should have been tried in an Australian court was never an issue. To the Australian people, the issue against Capital Punishment was in question.

As for me, It seems that nearly every Australian going overseas is being caught with narcotics at the airport. Van was not the first Austrlian to be caught with drugs in Southeast Asia. Before him, three cases were made in Bali of Schapelle Corby, underwear model Lelsie Michelle and nine teenagers known as the Bali Nine who were all accused of smuggling marijuana, ectasty tablets and heroin into the Airport at Denpasar. And i believe that for all three of them, the prosecution were pushing for the death sentence to the judges.
In the end, Schapelle Corby was found guilty and was sentence to 20 years, later reduced to 10; Leslie Michelle was acquitted and the Bali Nine i believe their trial is still going on. That or they are facing the shooting squad. News of the Bali Nine doesn't get that much coverage here in Australia.

The thing about the drug trafficking is that most of it is done in either SouthAsia/Middle East and the Southeast Asian regions. Afghanistan is notorious as being the world's largest producer of heroin, even today. Thailand also has farmers growing heroin. And to put a stop to this, the governments feel that it is necessary to have a somewhat "Zero Tolerance" policy when it comes to drug trafficking.

Do i feel that it is neccessary? Perhaps not. Life in prison would do just as well, and the family would be spared the grief of losing a family member. But will it stick as well as the death penalty?


Actually the place of the trial and under what law was a bigger issue then you made out by the people, it was the liberal gov which stated that Van should be tried in Indonesia and not Australia, while the Greens, Democrats and possibly Labor party deemed that sicne Van was an australian citizen that Howard should take it to the international court to get Van returned to Australia to stand trial.

Only later on after the verdict was there strife about the punishment of death, as all sides pretty much saw it as a barbaric act that had no possible deterrent to drug smugglers at all. What news services and those exasterbating the problem failed to say was that Van comitted the crime in 2000 (2001 somewhere around there) so all parties had ample time to take steps to eithe rbring him home to trial or to leave him there, they did nothing and waited for the verdict to kick up a stink.

They also didnt note that Van was caught, with i believe the number was either 4 or 10x the limit of heroin on himself that the law states deems the death penalty worthy. (ie to ask for the death penalty requires say 10 pounds, then he would have 40 pounds) He also had the intent to distribute and sell as it was later revealed he did that to help out his twin brother.

So it was more a case of you condemn thousands of individuals to a life dependant on drugs or you crucify him as an example. He chose his path and in the end accepted responsibility, the death penalty whether barbaric or not by laws of that country was neccessary.
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Filipe

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 1:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

eXistence of Fly wrote:
Starslasher wrote:
Well, i live in Australia (not an Australian citizen...yet), and That was pretty big a few weeks ago. But the question of whether Van Truong should have been tried in an Australian court was never an issue. To the Australian people, the issue against Capital Punishment was in question.

As for me, It seems that nearly every Australian going overseas is being caught with narcotics at the airport. Van was not the first Austrlian to be caught with drugs in Southeast Asia. Before him, three cases were made in Bali of Schapelle Corby, underwear model Lelsie Michelle and nine teenagers known as the Bali Nine who were all accused of smuggling marijuana, ectasty tablets and heroin into the Airport at Denpasar. And i believe that for all three of them, the prosecution were pushing for the death sentence to the judges.
In the end, Schapelle Corby was found guilty and was sentence to 20 years, later reduced to 10; Leslie Michelle was acquitted and the Bali Nine i believe their trial is still going on. That or they are facing the shooting squad. News of the Bali Nine doesn't get that much coverage here in Australia.

The thing about the drug trafficking is that most of it is done in either SouthAsia/Middle East and the Southeast Asian regions. Afghanistan is notorious as being the world's largest producer of heroin, even today. Thailand also has farmers growing heroin. And to put a stop to this, the governments feel that it is necessary to have a somewhat "Zero Tolerance" policy when it comes to drug trafficking.

Do i feel that it is neccessary? Perhaps not. Life in prison would do just as well, and the family would be spared the grief of losing a family member. But will it stick as well as the death penalty?


Actually the place of the trial and under what law was a bigger issue then you made out by the people, it was the liberal gov which stated that Van should be tried in Indonesia and not Australia, while the Greens, Democrats and possibly Labor party deemed that sicne Van was an australian citizen that Howard should take it to the international court to get Van returned to Australia to stand trial.

Only later on after the verdict was there strife about the punishment of death, as all sides pretty much saw it as a barbaric act that had no possible deterrent to drug smugglers at all. What news services and those exasterbating the problem failed to say was that Van comitted the crime in 2000 (2001 somewhere around there) so all parties had ample time to take steps to eithe rbring him home to trial or to leave him there, they did nothing and waited for the verdict to kick up a stink.

They also didnt note that Van was caught, with i believe the number was either 4 or 10x the limit of heroin on himself that the law states deems the death penalty worthy. (ie to ask for the death penalty requires say 10 pounds, then he would have 40 pounds) He also had the intent to distribute and sell as it was later revealed he did that to help out his twin brother.

So it was more a case of you condemn thousands of individuals to a life dependant on drugs or you crucify him as an example. He chose his path and in the end accepted responsibility, the death penalty whether barbaric or not by laws of that country was neccessary.


Dont get me wrong in the statements that I have made, I never claimed that Australia was at any point condoning his criminal act, nor their trying him in their courts. What they were making issue of, was the punishment that he was recieving for the crime, which is also what pissed me off the most out of the whole situation. Living here in Vancouver, I have seen first hand what the effects of heroin on people long term are, I have seen their lives ruined, and the lives they ruin. I have heard stories, of a man so desperate for his next hit of heroin that he broke into a house, began robbing it, and when the owners came in he killed them out of desperation. They were elderly, and they were only pushed, but his actions resulted in their deaths, all so he could steal their stuff to buy his next hit.

So lets consider that they want to avoid having people like that around right? Well you do realise that a lot of these people tend to have connections outside of the prison, that can move drugs around for them. If you have ever watched shows about life in prison, you already know that it's not that far fetched to run drug cartels even in prison. So these people would still be sending drugs around while still in prison, and they want to avoid that. Give me life, and nothing will change, but if you kill them, they cant run something themselves when they are dead. It's a good way of making sure that they cant do anything again, saving the lives of many people, who would die, or have their lives ruined by those drugs. Can you imagine how many lives would have been effected by those 40+ pounds of drugs?

The question is still was it the right decision to execute this person, and considering that it is made very clear that the type of crime is punishable by death. They apparently have signs all over the airport in these countries that tell you just that, which means he knew exactly what he was doing at the time. I hate to say it but he got what was coming to him, and in my opinion, drug crimes would be a lot less common, around the world if more countries were to take this stand against it. You cant consider the rights of the criminals, or those that take the drugs, but on the big picture all together. Look at all the other lives their drug selling have, and not just on the drug addicts. You would then see why I dont have the least bit of sympathy for anyone clearly looking to sell not just some heroin, but a huge amount of heroin.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 2:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I know what you mean, Filipe. Drug sellers pretty much macke up a kanker on the face of society. And there are movies, biographies and other documents of media that show us how drugs have affected a person in social interactions, relationships as well as mentally and physically. Yet no one seems to be inspired by them not to do drugs. The death sentence may be the only thing that will send a message to those distributing drugs consuming them and just plain possessing them that the law won't tolerate them destroying other people lives as well as their own.

But our society, our modern Western society, has strong roots in the beliefs of clemency and redemption. That's pretty much why there are limited jail sentences and parole meetings. The criminal must acknowledge that what they have done is wrong and must find sincere atonement. It's not yet perfected, but we must show that we don't only punish criminals but help those who have been victimised.

The point i'm making is that Van may have had the chance to redeem himself and, perhaps in the future, counsel those who are going through what Van has been through. But we will nevver know that for sure, since he has been executed.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 4:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

While this makes a good point Starslasher, you have to remember that at the very least considering how severe their punishments are, the smallest penalty he would get is life. He wouldnt be released into society, he wouldnt considering the way they run things over there, be able to do anything for anyone from prison, aside from his friends. Their jails are far from a perfect system, to keep criminals away from other criminals, and considering that I dont believe they have rehab programs things are a little different. You also have to consider that this country is not exactly among the usual 1st world countries in their finances, or their social programs for that matter. It doesnt at all seem that most people in the country who have these drug problems, being addicted to it rather than selling it, dont want any help from others.

You have to remember that in Asia, admitting you have a problem tends to be taboo, and looked badly upon. Kind of like, shaming your family, and those associated to you as a result. That is at least the general old way of thinking in Japan, and China when I have read about their societies in the past. Though things have changed since then in various ways, it still isnt well looked upon among their society. I dont personally think this is a good course of action, but I have also seen what too much money into social programmes, and rehab centers can do to a city. Vancouver is the perfect example of that.

We spend so much money every single year on safe injection sites, and rehab programmes for our drug addicts. We have job programmes for those on the downtown east side(voted poorest Neighborhood in all of North America last year). What has that gotten us? Those on the downtown eastside are still there, and in fact more are coming in every day, most unwilling to work. I have even seen one with a sign that literally said pay me a dollar, and you can kick me in the head. The drug addicts not only have been safer in taking their drugs, but they still have to buy the drugs. They go around breaking into homes, assaulting people on the street, and taking their wallets, and even breaking into cars, just to steal something small. Not even the car itself. In fact the crimes they commit havent gone down with the safe injection sites on their sides, they have actually gone up. What good have those programs for drug addicts done for the people in the community?

Your right we will never know what good he may have done if he wasnt executed, but we do know what he was doing at the time. We do know how much bad he was doing, or trying to do when he was caught dont we? They cant judge what he may have done in the future, but rather what he was doing at the time he was caught, and thats what got him executed.
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