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Plot Hole in Karaya Raid [S3] (Spoilers?)
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Aesa

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2005 10:39 am    Post subject: Plot Hole in Karaya Raid [S3] (Spoilers?) Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

IMO Suikoden is the best of the PS2 suikodens but something that I and others noticed was a huge gaping plot hole. The weak link in the plot? Dupa.

He was supposedly at the Peace treaty with the other chiefs. Yet when we play as Geddoe in the great hollow, we see him there to succede Zepon. Huh? How does that work?

This quote is from Dan Crenshaw's Walkthrough on Gamefaqs.com

On Karaya wrote:

4b. Conspiracy Theory-The Karaya Raid

This is the lynchpin event for Chris, Hugo, and Geddoe's chapter 1's. How it
happened, what lead up to it, and what it provoked is a master stroke of
storytelling-if it weren't for one huge gaping plot hole you could drive a
truck through. Here first is a chronology of the relevant events with a
step-by-step explanation afterwards.

The following are all the events preceding the ambush at the truce meeting:

-The Captain and Vice-Captain of the Zexen Knights are killed by Grasslanders
-A truce agreement is brokered between the Zexen Council and the heads of the
Grassland tribes
-The Zexen Council is contacted by a Harmonian representative, most likely
Albert, to enter into an agreement whereby Harmonia invades and Grassland is
divided up between Zexen and Harmonia
-The Council is also told that the Zexen Knights will be ambushed at the truce
meeting and possibly informed that Karaya Village would be torched
-Hugo is asked to deliver the Karayan reply by Lucia and heads to Zexen
-Chris is ordered by the Council to represent Zexen at the truce meeting
-Geddoe, following a lead on the Fire Bringer, heads to the Great Hollow to get
some clues from the head of the lizard clan, Zepon
-Hugo meets Chris at Brass Castle but is unable to deliver Jimba's memento
-A very specific meeting time is set for the truce between Dupa and Chris
-Chris, Salome, Borus, and Roland head out for the truce meeting
-Hugo is in Vinay Del Zexay, waiting to meet a council representative
-Luc, Sarah, Yuber, and Albert arrive at the Great Hollow; an illusion trap is
set in the pathways to lure the lizard fighters out
-Geddoe arrives at the Great Hollow
-Luc and Sarah go outside, setting up another illusion so they look like Chris
and a group of Zexen Knights
-Inside the Great Hollow, we see Shiba, Bazba, and Dupa (remember Dupa-this is
the gaping plot hole I was referencing)
-Sarah's trap is triggered, a group of lizard men follow it. The group runs
into Sarah's illusion trap and mistake Geddoe's team for Zexens
-The lizard troops proceed outside and are killed by Luc and Sarah
-Geddoe's team and Shiba follow the trail outside and see "Chris" standing over
the dead lizard fighters
-His chamber now unguarded, Zepon is assassinated by Yuber
-Geddoe and Shiba fight "Chris"
-It is discovered by Dupa and the others that Zepon has been murdered
-Geddoe decides to head to Karaya to consult with Jimba and Lucia
-Hugo delivers the Karayan reply and gets ready to head back at dawn
-Word is sent with miraculous expediency to Percival and Leo that the knights
have been attacked and they are to arrest Hugo
-Hugo escapes and heads back to Karaya

What follows are the critical events and all happened on the same day:

-Geddoe and his team arrive at Karaya Village
-Hugo escapes Percival and Leo at Brass Castle
-Sarah warns Aila of the impending doom
-The Zexen Knights and Grassland leaders meet near Plain Amur for the truce**
-The Knights are attacked by the lizard clan; seeing their comrades in battle,
the Karaya Clan join
-Chris and her group escape the ambush and decide they will set fire to Karaya
-At Karaya Village, Luc and co. set fire to the village and set up the wall of
anger at the back of the village. They then depart
-Chris' team arrives and she orders Borus to the back of the village, right
where Sarah had set up the wall of anger
-Chris enters the village and sees her father's armor
-Hugo's team arrives and Lulu is killed by Chris
-On the other side of the village, Geddoe confronts Borus who is chopping down
Karayan villagers. Because the sight of dead Zexens and dead Karayans are not
a source of anger for them, Geddoe's team does not join in the fighting. The
wall of anger's effects are dissipating and Borus lets Geddoe go
-Borus leaves the site of the massacre
-Chris makes her way to the back of the village and is appalled by the sight of
the dead Karayan villagers

**It's possible the two sides met for the truce the previous day and the scene
where Chris is informed of the ambush is actually a carryover of the Grasslands
festival from the previous day

The following events happen the next day:

-Geddoe's team decides to go to Caleria
-Hugo, Sgt. Joe, and Fubar head to Duck Village
-Back at Brass Castle, Borus lies to Salome then Chris about the massacre
-Chris is told that the Zexen Council has already been informed of yesterday's
events and she needs to go back to Vinay Del Zexay for a meeting with them
-Chris and Borus head back, both suspecting that the Council knew of the lizard
clan attack ahead of time
-Chris is infuriated that she is now being called a hero for the destruction of
Karaya Village. Nonetheless, she is told Zexen must retaliate for the loss of
men and is ordered to attack the Great Hollow

And the aftermath:

-A snowball effect occurs as the Zexens attack the Lizard Clan, who in turn
raid Iksay Village during a festival
-Thomas is under siege for his position of Castle master by the same Zexen
Council members who wanted to form an alliance with Harmonia
-Salome learns of the Zexen-Harmonia alliance being brokered and enlists Geddoe
to help Thomas
-Thomas, with an assist from Geddoe, wins out over the Zexen Council
-Their position weakened because of this symbolic defeat, the Zexen Council
members who wanted to deal with Harmonia are nullified
-Albert's intent of driving a wedge between Zexen and the Grasslands comes to
bear, however, when the two sides can't agree to cooperate at Chisha when the
Harmonian Army attacks
-Rallying behind the Flame Champion, the new Fire Bringer expose Luc's plans to
Sasarai, cutting off Harmonian support for Luc
-Luc and co. are defeated by the Flame Champion and his/her army

Whew!

The evidence provided that the Zexen Council knew of the lizard clan attack is
offered at various points in the game. First, after Chris' first meeting with
the council, two of the councilmen have a conversation about Chris' duty as a
Zexen hero. One of them states that it is a hero's duty to die in glorious
battle. Second, Salome's meeting with Geddoe in Geddoe's chapter 3 clearly
shows there is a conspiracy among the council to enter into an agreement with
Harmonia. Third, Chris, Salome, and Borus all hint that the Council must have
known about the attack or else they wouldn't have responded so quickly. In
addition, such an attack would give the Council clear provocation to send the
Knights back in to attack the Grasslands. Fourth, the time frame for Leo and
Percival going to arrest Hugo can only make sense if the Council knew about the
attack ahead of time. If you'll remember, when they go to get Hugo it is night
time outside in Vinay Del Zexay. Hugo does not make it back to Karaya until
the _next_ day at dusk, the day when the lizard clan actually attacked at the
truce meeting. Therefore, the Zexen Council _had_ to have known about the
attack beforehand. It would also explain why they took so long to meet with
Hugo-so that he would still be in Vinay Del Zexay around the time of the truce
to be used as a hostage. Lastly, it provides a good excuse that they did not
receive the Karayans' message until it was too late.

With this evidence, it's clear what the Council intended-weaken the Grasslands
armies with the Knights to make it easier for a Harmonian invasion. The
Knights, already reeling from the death of the Captain and Vice Captain, would
not need much bait to get them to attack. That bait is the attack at the truce
meeting. The Council's logic is that if Chris dies at the battle, great,
because this would _really_ whip Zexen and the Knights into a frenzy. If not,
she'll come out a greater hero and, since she's bound by duty to serve Zexen,
will be an even more useful tool in getting Zexen support.

From Albert's perspective, this all goes in line with Luc's plot. Once Luc
becomes Bishop, they intend to invade the Grasslands under the pretense of
acquiring the Runes for Harmonia. As Luc states in his POV, he knows it's only
a matter of time before they're figured out and they won't be able to rely on
Harmonia's armies forever. In order to maintain their advantage at this time,
Albert devises a plot to ensure that Zexen and Grassland will not be united
enough to meet their threat. Albert devises the master stroke of setting up
the agreement with the Zexen Council and the subsequent events that drive an
even bigger wedge between Zexen and Grassland. He tricks the Zexen Council
into believing this is a precursor to a Grassland that will be divided up
between Harmonia and Zexen, when the only reason the Harmonian Army moves in is
to re-acquire the True Runes. As Sasarai states during the battle at Brass
Castle in chapter 4, the only reason Harmonia is in Grassland is by order of
Hikusaak to get the True Runes. For his part in aiding the Bishop (Luc) who
helps to re-acquire these Runes, Albert will get a cushy position high in the
Harmonian hierarchy.

This all sounds great until you stop to think about Dupa. If Dupa was in the
Great Hollow at the time of Zepon's death and knew "Chris" was there at the
same time, why didn't he attack her right out at the truce meeting? The only
plausible explanation is that he was setting her up for a trap, knowing
beforehand that she had a part in killing Zepon. But how would that explain
Chris showing up at the truce with blood on her hands and acting as if nothing
happened? It turns into a dizzying logic that Dupa goes to the truce, sees
Chris, knows that Chris knows about Zepon, but they both decide to act really
cool about it until Dupa attacks. Dupa then is left to reconcile how Chris
could be so smart as to assassinate Zepon right inside Great Hollow and be so
dumb as to not expect an ambush.

The better, and less annoying, explanation is that Konami simply messed up and
Dupa should not have been at the Great Hollow when Geddoe visited. Rather, he
was on his way to the truce meeting already. There is enough time, then, for
Shiba, Bazba, and the other lizard fighters to head to the truce agreement,
tell Dupa that Zepon was killed and Chris was there, and then they ambush the
Zexens. From the lizard clan perspective, the Zexens knew the exact time when
the truce was to be signed. On the eve of the truce, Chris leads a Zexen team
to the Great Hollow to kill Zepon in retaliation for the deaths of Galahad and
Pelize. She then hurries to sign the truce to prevent any further retaliation
by the lizard clan-who will look like the villains for breaking the truce.

The other main plot point is Borus' situation. It's my personal opinion that
he is not to blame for the massacre at Karaya Village. He was under the
influence of Sarah's spell and could not be held accountable for his actions.
On the other hand, he should definitely be held responsible for lying about it
afterwards. You could build a strong case that his lying about what happened
was even more damaging than if he were actually responsible for the massacre.
Because Chris and Salome believe Borus had nothing to do with the massacre,
they feel perfectly justified in attacking the Great Hollow. This, in turn,
leads to the lizard clan's raid on Iksay. These attacks then lead to the
wedge that further divides Zexen and Grassland, making them ill-prepared to
take on the Harmonian army. Therefore, it's not a great leap of logic in terms
of cause-effect to state that Borus' denial had a significant hand in elevating
the conflict past the point of no return.



Any thoughts on this matter?
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Hawk Thanatos

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2005 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Well I've only passed Suikoden III once so I don't know it well enough to know whether it is a plot hole or not, I do however disagree with him not blaming Borus for the massacre at Karaya Village, sure Sarah is also to blame but Borus not having control over his own emotions really makes me not like him.

Now assuming everything this guy wrote is correct, I've gotta ask, how many knights did Chris have at the truce meeting? If there were enough, the lizards may simply have decided to keep it cool and then attack Iksay Village later.

I really need to replay Suikoden III, I forgot how deep the story was.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2005 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Dupa wasn't at the Great Hollow during the Geddoe perspective. You probably mistook Bazba or Shiva with him.
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Aesa

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2005 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

*Thinks back to Shiba/Dupa/Baza Bath scene*

Suikoden 3 wrote:

10c. Bazba, Shiba, and Dupa

Shiba: "Since I came here, humans have been constantly getting my name wrong."
Bazba: "These days, Master Juan has taken to calling me Shiba. Imagine that!
What could he be looking at? Shiba, of all things..."
Shiba: "What do you mean by 'of all things,' Bazba?"
Bazba: "No, no ulterior meanings. Forgive me if I offended you."
Dupa: "It's hard for us to tell humans apart, so it's probably hard for them
to distinguish between us. It's a delicate issue."
Shiba: "Yes, that's definitely a problem! The other day, I was about to call
out to Master Nash, but after looking closer it turned out to be Master Hallec.
Those two look far too much alike!"
Bazba: "Ah, I also get those two mixed up. Also, Lady Lilly and Lady Luce.
They're twins, aren't they?"
Shiba: "They look alike, yes. But if you look closely, you can tell them
apart. You must take more care!"
Bazba: "But despite that, being mistaken for Shiba is pretty..."
Dupa: "How far are you going to push it?"


......

Well, I haven't played it in a while and was going by the quote in my first post so it's quite possible that I'm wrong...
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 7:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Yes, I am sure the 5 representing Grasslands are:

Dupa
Sana
Lucia
Beechum
Random Karayan

Dupa's location in Great Hollow is usually outside the chief's room. During Geddoe's visit, he wasn't there. Shiba was the only 'main' lizard you would meet. Even Bazba wasn't there, if I recall correctly.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Bazba was part of the team that fought against Chris in the ambush. I rmember his funeral wind. That thing took out my level 83 Chris! :shock:
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

halberdier wrote:

Random Karayan


Actually it was a random lizard wasn't it?
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Actually, I think Dupa might've been there when you go and find the Chief is dead. While I haven't seen that scene in quite a while, I do remember being rather confused when I thought I saw Dupa there. I think I'm going to go check up on this...
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 10:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

This reminds me, what is the Zexen Rune? When I was doing the leveling trick with Chris recently I saw the comment about how the knights swear allegiance to the Zexen Rune far too many times for it not to be gnawing on my brain.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Ninjar wrote:
This reminds me, what is the Zexen Rune? When I was doing the leveling trick with Chris recently I saw the comment about how the knights swear allegiance to the Zexen Rune far too many times for it not to be gnawing on my brain.


I think that was a mistranslation which should have meant "Zexen Crest"
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Well, I went back and played through most of everyone's Ch1. I found that Dupa was indeed at the Great Hollow when Geddoe arrived, and was also present when Zepon's death was discovered. After thinking real hard about this, and organizing my thoughts, here is what I believe to be the timeline of the first part of the story (when I only mention a characters name, I mean them and their party):

DAY ONE:
-Chris arrives at Brass Castle and bumps into Hugo. She then meets with Dupa from the Lizard Clan who confirms the truce and tells her where/when it will take place.
-Hugo bumps into Chris at the Brass Castle, then arrives at Vinay Del Zexay. He is forced to wait to deliver his message.

DAY TWO:
-Hugo goes off and helps Melville, which takes the remainder of the day.
-Geddoe leaves for the Great Hollow (evidenced by the fact that some townspeople speak of seeing a Karayan boy around earlier).

DAY THREE:
-Hugo returns from helping Melville, but must wait another day.
-Chief Zepon is assassinated. Both Geddoe and Dupa know of his death.

DAY FOUR (DAY):
-Hugo finally delivers his message.
-Dupa leaves for the truce meeting, and is accompanied by a "secret" Lizard army.
-Geddoe leaves the Great Hollow.

DAY FOUR (EVENING):
-Truce meeting takes place.
-After the truce has been settled, Dupa orders Lizards to attack the knights (the fact that the Lizards "appear out of nowhere" could be explained by their underground tunnels, however Salome claims they have mapped them all out. The Lizard armies were probably in hiding, and Dupa let the truce happen to "surprise" the Zexens and make his revenge more sweet).
-Lucia, having no idea what is going on, assists her fellow Grasslanders, the Lizards.

DAY FOUR (NIGHT):
-Word of the attack reaches Vinay Del Zexay, and the remaing knights go after Hugo to learn details. However, Hugo escapes and heads towards Karaya Village.

DAY FIVE (DAY):
-Geddoe arrives at Karaya village.
-Hugo continues to travel to Karaya.
-Chris and Grasslanders continue to fight for the remainder of the day (as most large battles do). It takes her a while to escape to Karaya.

DAY FIVE (EVENING):
-Hugo is nearing Karaya when he sees smoke.
-Chris escapes from the battlefield and travels to Karaya.

DAY FIVE (NIGHT):
-Karaya village is attacked by the Knights of Zexen. Lulu is murdered.

I've compiled this timeline based on the settings (times of day, distances between locations realisiticly) as well as from talking to townspeople. Unless anyone can spot any major holes, this is what I will hold as the actual timeline for this part of the game.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 2:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

hawkthanatos wrote:
Well I've only passed Suikoden III once so I don't know it well enough to know whether it is a plot hole or not, I do however disagree with him not blaming Borus for the massacre at Karaya Village, sure Sarah is also to blame but Borus not having control over his own emotions really makes me not like him.


Its a trap. sarah put a force field to disturb human emotion. When Borus and his units enter the area they become berserk thanks to that. I dont think Borus would do that without Sarah's force field. He seems to have a good emotion control troughout the game except that scene.

About the Karaya raid. There're something i dont understand.
- Was the Zexens put the fire or was it Luc?
- The timeline. Luc arrival, Zexens arrival, and Geddoe. It confusing. Geddoe was there before the raid and escape during the raid. How come he didnt meet Luc who was there before the zexens?
- And where the hell is Jimba?
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:
-After the truce has been settled, Dupa orders Lizards to attack the knights (the fact that the Lizards "appear out of nowhere" could be explained by their underground tunnels, however Salome claims they have mapped them all out. The Lizard armies were probably in hiding, and Dupa let the truce happen to "surprise" the Zexens and make his revenge more sweet).


I was under the impression that the attacking Lizards were illusions made by Sarah to spark a battle between the Zexens and the Grasslanders. Of course, knowing Dupa, he most certainly would have been planning something himself, but as Crenshaw says, it's not like Dupa to restrain his emotions. But what if Dupa was planning an attack from the start, but was incapacitated by Luc and Co. and replaced by an illusion, who then proceeded with the peace negotiations? Yeah, it's far-fetched, but it does explain everything a bit more satisfactorily. Unless the Lizards weren't illusions in the first place, which would make another theory entirely unnecessary.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Dupa was not there Bzaba was at the end of Geddoe's chapter you see Bazba and lizard soldiers carry off Zepon to bury him. After that they whent to the treaty the soldiers hid and Bazba informed Dupa that is why Dupa said "Zepon is still chief till night fall" that is when Dupa took over and the attack happened.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:

About the Karaya raid. There're something i dont understand.
- Was the Zexens put the fire or was it Luc?
- The timeline. Luc arrival, Zexens arrival, and Geddoe. It confusing. Geddoe was there before the raid and escape during the raid. How come he didnt meet Luc who was there before the zexens?
- And where the hell is Jimba?

1-Zexens did it. Luc sparked them to such a manuveur when he had Sarah create the massive illusion army of Lizards, or at least that was the impression I got.
-I was under the impression that Geddoe arrived first because he got to speak with Zepon(I really wanted to see him but thats tupid shadow). You'll note that Luc didn't go up. He(Sarah) conjured the illusions simultaneously as Yuber killed Zepon. The Zexens came after and fought against the real Lizards at the front of the Great Hollow. That's the timeline I inferred from the game. Suikoden 3 is generally bad about clarifying the timeline it seems.
-Jimba was on the lamb. At the time he had the True Water Rune, though hidden, it would have been risky for him to wander about in the presense of those that were searching for it. I imagine that he had experience with those types that were strong enough and from Harmonia, atuned to hear/sense a True Rune that was closeby. That's one possible reason that Jimba was away. Also, it seems he was a member of the Karaya Clan that Lucia would send on those non-local missions for diplomacy and so such, so he may have been on one of those, though I can't think of any mention of him being on a mission at the particular time.
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