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Editorial: Why do we feel the need to see Viktor and Flik again?
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Icebergin




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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 4:43 pm    Post subject: Editorial: Why do we feel the need to see Viktor and Flik ag Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Editorial: Why do we feel the need to see Viktor and Flik again?
By Icebergin

I was sitting at my computer, sifting through posts on suikox.com and gamefaqs.com and I just started to think to myself "What is it about Viktor and Flik that makes us want to see them again, specifically?" After a few moments, I decided to start writing this, rationalizing with myself really why it's these two that the Suikofandom populous yearns for. I've seen post after post every time a new Suikoden or Suikoden-related game is announced saying "I hope it set ______ so we can see Flik and Viktor again." Now, why exactly is this? First, let's examine the characters.

There's first Viktor, who is basically the typical hot-headed, dim witted hero. Really, that's what it comes down to. Then, there's Flik, who is more of a chivalrous guy. They're almost complete opposites of each other. Flik is modest, even due to his fame of "Blue Lightning Flik", where as Viktor acts the part of being famous, even if people don't recognize him. The two play major roles in Suikoden I and are forced into your final party, and in Suikoden II they are really strong characters with arguably one of the better Unite attacks in the game. But, this is a common formula we see.

For example, we see the trio of Rina, Bolgan, and Eilie who are the parfect example of opposites. Rina and Eilie are like the older and younger sister next door that you had the hots for when you were little. Rina's the older, "experienced" young woman who knows exactly what she wants and how to get it. Then Eilie's just the younger version, less experienced Rina who has a crush on you (you being Riou.). Then to contrast the hot sisters we have big, fat, balding Bolgan, who seems to have a limited vocabulary. But he's the muscle and power of the group. But I've never heard ANYONE say "I hope Rina, Eilie and Bolgan are in Suikoden ___" Why? Because they weren't a repeated character from Suikoden 1 to 2?

Well, let's take Futch for example. He's in all three games. In the first two, he seems sort of arrogant, especially in the first game. He even has a few major plot elements and side stories he plays a part in. He event gets paired with Humphrey, another Suikoden I vet and they two become a duo just like Flik and Viktor. Futch is the young, more arrogant, more naïve character, where Humphrey is large, seemingly intelligent, and quiet. Yet again, I've never seen someone say "I hope Humphrey and Futch are in Suikoden ___" Another point is that we still get more of Futch, who becomes more responsible in his adulthood in Suikoden 3, yet no one complains that there's no Humphrey. You better bet your bottom dollar that if we got Viktor, but no Flik, there would be a million "WTF?! WEHRE IS FLIK11!!11!!?" Posts. And the vice-versa applies.

There's also Edge. His real name should be Fliktor. That's what he is, he's like a combination between Viktor and Flik, yet he has almost no fan following. People are more interested in how he got the Star Dragon Sword than Edge himself. Why is this? No one knows. Maybe it's the whole Zebra stripe pattern he's got, and the fact that he's one character instead of two and the Star Dragon Sword doesn't make fun of him, really. But he's basically got Viktor's color palette goin' on and Flik's looks. Grow his hair out a little and put a bandanna on him, seriously.

The closest thing we have to people yearning for Viktor and Flik is Yuber and Pesmerga, but I agree with SARSadmin's editorial "Pesmerga Sucks Ass." Yuber is the only one of that equation that gets any character development whatsoever. Pesmerga is simply following Yuber as far as we know. But, we all know why people ask for more Pesmerga and Yuber. They look cool. They have cool black armor and wield swords. But Viktor and Flik share nothing with them, other than the sword wielding, but we also don't ask for Shin, Humphrey, Genshu, or Valeria.

And it's not like Viktor's the strongest physical damage character, I prefer Valeria over him in Sukoden 1 and 2. And in Suikoden 2, you can't beat those 3 rune slot people. And Flik's just and average mage, Luc's much better than him in both games at the mage-position, and he's just got above average to average normal attacks. I mean, really I'd kill to have Killey again. He can probably beat the final Boss by himself. But, that's all in-game stats. So why is it we like Viktor and Flik so much?

Well, in my opinion it's just the sentimentality. Viktor and Flik were there at the beginning when Tir McDohl first is chased and deemed a traitor by his own Empire. There were there through the majority of the first game, especially Viktor. Flik becomes probably the most developed character in the series after he learns of Odessa's death, and tells everyone he will not follow McDohl, and then comes back to help the Liberation Army, and when he finally finds the traitor that caused Odessa's death, he spares his life. This is the change we see in Flik that carried over to the second game. Then, Viktor also follows suit with the chronicles of his life and his struggle with the Vampire, Neclord.

And who can forget how Flik and Viktor seemingly "go down" in Suikoden I, protecting McDohl and the Liberation Army's cause to (seemingly) the bitter end. A similar situation is seen with the Deaths of Seed and Culgan. In fact, it is their deaths that make Seed and Culgan so popular in Suikoden fandom.

Then, the second game starts up and we're expelled from Highland, and too our glee we are prisoners of Flik and Viktor! How can this possibly be bad? They eventually after the first half of the game become part of our army and become essentially background characters. They even take a backseat to Ridley and Shu through the latter half of the game. But in the very end, who is there to let Riou know he is always welcome, and what he has accomplished is great? Flik and Viktor.

Then, after the war, again they leave on an "aimless journey". Leaving the impression that we may see them again.

But we don't, and we might not ever.

There are many combinations in the Suikoden world, but none like Viktor and Flik. In a game where character development is done to a minor extent, and novels and spin-offs left to fill in blanks, we are given a lot of these two's story right there in the first two games.

The point is, we can have Hix and Tengaar, Yuber and Pesmerga, Freed and Yoshino, Valeria and Anita, Camus and Miklotov, Clive and Elza (who get lots of love in Suikoden 2 I might add), Shin and Teresa, Riou and Jowy, McDohl and Gremio, and many other great combinations of characters, but none of them thus far have done what Viktor and Flik have done. We may see them again, we may see some of the other "duo's" that I've listed again, but because of what they've done and what they stand for, it seems we'll always want to see them again.

And why not, especially for the casual fan? The hero's of the games are always mute/don't talk much, as we are apparently "talking for the character" in the choices we make, so we never see them "speak" on-screen. Viktor and Flik are the only two characters that spanned two games, continuing to extend their story, having a prominent role that we get to fall in love with. That's why we love Viktor and Flik, because they were there at the beginning, and if I had my say in it, they'll be there at the end.

Now, reading over this again, I realized "Well duh, Icebergin." But I thought they were good points to share with you all, and I wonder when Konami will develop a new set of characters for us to fall in love with. Could it be George Prime in Suikoden V? Maybe. But I'd still like to hear all of your thoughts of why we place such high regard on Flik and Viktor.

Comment away.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

*clap* That is excatually the reason people love both of them. You touch on every point and did a great job presenting your thoughts. I do like both characters but I really don't think they would be any better if they were to return. I would hate to have to judge there characters again. As characters from the past we have fond memories of them, and to make them return would just harm their character more than help.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

It's very simple. Flik and Viktor are hilarious.
Out of all the character duo's you've mentioned

Valeria and Anita
Camus and Mikoltov
Futch and Humphrey
Clive and Elza
Tir and Gremio
Yuber and Pesmerga

Eventhough, most of those mentioned above are incredibly kool, awesome and strong....not one of those pairs managed to make me crack a smile or laugh.

But with Flik and Viktor...it's like laugh, laugh, laugh, even in the most serious situations.

Another thing i noticed....in Suikoden 2 mainly, is that they taunt you.
After finishing Suikoden 1, when i started Suikoden 2, i was looking to recruit Flik on my team, and use him.

Near the beginning, you get a taste of Flik and Viktor on the way back from Kyaro, and you see how incredibly powerful and awesome they are....(especially Flik, lol :D )

But then....you don't get a chance to use Flik for ages and ages....until Greenhill...which is such a long wait. And you don't get too much use of Viktor either. Just the Neclord thing, and then.............................

You never get a chance to use Flik and Viktor in the same party until the second comeback to Greenhill....and thats like half a game of waiting :P

It's like physicological warfare, like the game is taunting you

Here's flik
now he's not
Here's Viktor
now he's not
Here's Flik
now he's not
ARGHHH!!! :twisted:
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Yes i agree with a lot of what you said. It is not just because Viktor and Flik have appeared in both games, but because of the role they have played. There were presented to us in the beginning of both games and played a major role in Suikoden 1, and a fairly major role in Sukoden 2. There personalities and charisma are liked by just about every suikoden fan i have ever met. I really can't remember meeting someone who disliked this duo. Sure you may meet the casual fan who says they don't care if they ever reappear in another game, but no one really disliked them.

In my opinion i don't think there will ever be another duo like Viktor and Flik. I don't think the creators have spent a lot of time trying to develop another set of characters who fit the mold of Viktor and Flik, but i just don't think they will ever be able to duplicate the cult following of these two.

I enjoyed the point you made about how their following doesn't come from just their appearance. I think that is one of the major reasons why Pesmerga gets such a large fan base. He looks really cool, and he is mysterious. These are things any casual fan can relate with as can i. Even though i think both Viktor and Flik are very well designed and do in fact look "cool", it goes far beyond that.

I have been a fan for awhile and no matter how many games are made in the suikoden series, both Flik and Viktor will always strike a special chord with me.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Yeah, that's something I always notice when I play Suikoden II. It's my favourite game out of the series, and every time I play it, I promise myself I won't use Viktor or Flik, let alone both...and yet it always seems that at the very least Flik ends up in my final party, and more usually it's both of them. I hate it when characters force themselves on my party. I hated Gremio for it, I hate Freed Y for it, I hate Nanami for it, and so on...but whenever Viktor tells me he's coming along, I say "Alright." Flik does it left often, but it's the same story.

...But I'm not sure(for me, at least) it's because of their role in Suikoden I. I played Suikoden II years before I ever got a chance to play the first game...and sure enough, they were there at the very end. I longed through the whole game on my first playthrough for the day when they would actually join my party so that I could use them.

I think they're just incredibly likeable. I don't really care about Futch or Humphrey, and I care even less about Anita and Valeria. Elza and Clive I like a lot, I would love to play a game where they're both stars of destiny so I could use them. Yuber and Pesmerga...like Icebergin said initially, Pesmerga is the suck. They both look cool, but Pesmerga essentially has nothing whatsoever to him. He's a dude...in black armor...who's following Yuber. Yuber, on the other hand, was a villain in the first three games, a very major one in the third, people want to know who/what he is, and what he's doing...and where it will all end...

But since it's not terribly likely that Yuber will be a character in your hero's army, he's not quite the same as Viktor and Flik. Just for the record though, I was outraged beyond words when I heard that Suikoden IV did not contain Yuber.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 11:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Very good coverage of the Flik and Viktor concept! The two personalities do so well together, it's true, you can't really dislike them.

I am one of the odd people though, I really wanted Futch and Humphrey to make it into suikoden 3. Ended with Futch, Bright and Humphrey's sword.. hrm alright, that's pretty decent :P

Anyhow, back to topic. I just think it's great how Flik and Viktor are based to generic bcharacter builds.. but their story and personalities are expanded enough to make them unqiue. They're not perfect, and I think that's what we can love about them. Flawed characters just ask for the love. I've mentioned that before, look at the Luc and Sasarai love. We just thrive on flawed characters, regardless of how well they handle it :)
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

There's more to these two that you might have neglected to see.

I think you left out a lot on Viktor. He's more than a hot-headed dim wit. I don't even see him as hot-headed either. He's a very mellow guy. And a dim-wit? He may not have book smarts but he's quick on the uptake and thinks fast.

People love Viktor in particular for two very good reasons: his personality and his story. Think back to Suikoden 1. Remember when we first meet Viktor and he used Tir to escape paying for his meal? That was a good video game entrance. This showed Viktor's funnier side, which we also see when he punches a politician at Muse. His humor rears up again and again like when he has to distract Neclord and give Sierra and Kahn time to prepare their spells, when he applaudes Riou for travelling with "hotties" like Rina and Eilie, or when he insults the Star Dragon Sword and it attacks the party. Even his dialogue has a hint of humor to it a lot of the time.

However, Viktor also has a very tragic backstory. His history with Neclord and North Window is well documented in both the first games. We see Viktor get his revenge in Suikoden 1. His life is complete, or so he thinks. Neclord comes back in Suikoden 2 and Viktor must deal with him a second time. When he finally tracks Neclord down to Tinto they have their final showdown and Viktor kills him a second time. At this point Viktor has been through hell. Twice. He's a simple guy that fate has decided must suffer and feel pain. And through this his humor has kept him going.

And lets not forget about his emotional side. Like when Odessa dies, and he breaks the news to Flik. Or when he has a drink with Anabelle but leaves saying that it would never work between the two of them because she's an important person and he's a grunt. Or when Neclord shows Viktor a double of Daisy and Viktor slashes it's head of. Viktor is full of emotional range. He's very compassionate in particular. Viktor is the kind of guy you could imagine cutting the heads off of enemy soldiers in a battlefield somewhere or giving a fuzzy bunny a pat on the head with a smile. You get the impression that Viktor genuinely cares for everyone around him. He's probably the most compassionate character in the entire series.

The depth of Viktor's character is something that is barely matched by any other character in the series. I would not hesitate to put Viktor up there with Luc and Jowy. He's a gruff swordsman type with a big heart and an extremely sad past who doesn't mind cutting in a joke or two to make everyone feel better, and yet he's also so much more. There's a reason Viktor is one of the most popular Suikoden characters. It's his depth.

I would post some reasons on why Flik is great too, but after describing Viktor its hard to do that. That isn't to say Flik isn't a well-developed character. He is. But when standing next to Viktor there's really no contest.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

alright, i am probably about to get flamed for this, but it needs to be said. i personaly, did not like viktor or flik. they were useless to me. i also hated to be forced into taking them with you and that ticked me off. (i am refering more to suiko 1 than 2)i liked it if they gave you the choice of using them or not, and i would most likley choose not. and their character design wasnt that appiling to me and it kinda bored me to the point of not playing. when they made their apperence in suiko 1, i actually hoped it would be their last. when they came back in 2, it annnoyed me alot, and i really never got over it. if you want to get mad, and yell at me, send me a PM so that we dont clutter the thread.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Dahgaba: I guess this is actually an aside, but by utilizing capitalized letters in your posts you allow readers to pick out the beginnings of sentences far easier than normal. You have a good grasp of punctuation, however, which makes it look all the more odd that you're shuft-key impaired.

Second off-topic bit, in your sig it should be "oppose" and "defeated".

To the topic at hand:

I really don't think it's just Viktor and Flik. I think any one of th well-loved Suikoden characters could have just as easily had a dissertation written about them in this form that would make them seem like the ones fans are drooling over having in another chapter. But in all reality, I think that pairs like Yuber and Pesmerga are far more requested by fans and hotly looked for.

As for the main hero being silent, this is true in all but Suikoden III, who had three of the most engaging main characters in a Suikoden storyline. Geddoe, Hugo and Chris are in my eyes, far more interesting than either Viktor or Flik. Despite some interesting nuances that pair has, I can't really see how they warranted a wordy discussion on their virtues of character.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2005 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

My say is... Konami would also have think of the timeline fits for both Viktor and Flik would fit in. If they suddenly go 'Let's put Viktor and Flik in this Suikoden because the fans wanted them so badly even though the timeline for this Suikoden won't fit for the good old them'... it's not like they will receive cheers. They will get angry uproars instead. It's hard to bring back the good ol' Viktor-Flik combo unless the time is right. (Like, say just a few years after Suikoden 2. Now that's a right timeline).

Blue Thunder did a good job on potraying Viktor. I'm not sure if I can do the same on Flik, but here I go anyway.

Flik... well, yes, his backstory isn't as deep as Viktor. But I think his development is one that stands out very much. I admit, in Suikoden 1, when I first see Flik before Odessa's death, I was like 'Man, this guy is a total jerk. Too bad he looks kinda cool'. Yep, there you have it. I don't have a good first impression on Flik. And when he returns just to learn Odessa's death, my prediction came true. He exploded and left, while blaming Tir. Even though he later rejoined, he still hasn't truly acknowledged Tir. But, as time passed, even a somewhat 'obsessed' boy would learn to accept the people who caused his 'obsession''s death. Even though the fact that Sanchez still lives (Damn him), Flik's decision not to put his emotional stuff is already quite a development from him. If he's still the old immature blue boy before acknowledging Tir for the first time, he would disregard Mathiu's orders and kill Sanchez right away, which is a blow for his character. Fortunately, he didn't. And it comes again during the escape from Gregminster. Flik himself volunteered to stay behind and even goes as far as covering Tir from an incoming arrow. If he was still like before, I doubt he would even bother to cover Tir.

And as Suikoden 2 rolls in, the old image of Flik is completely gone, and replaced with a better one. He's now a calm, cool, collected guy who sometimes also goes along with Viktor's jokes, something he has never done in Suikoden 1. But he still retained one thing : His loyalty with Odessa. And thus, he kept refusing Nina's advances. I think... that all I can sum up for now (I'm sure you can expand more). My last cents are : I never thought someone who left a bad taste in my mouth for the first time would left an excellent taste in my mouth as he goes on to the last time. That's Flik for ya.

(OFF TOPIC : I don't know if this is a lie, but I heard that in an interview, Kawano said that her team is not abandoning what Murayama left behind. And thus, they've been saving the ultimate reappearance of Yuber and Pesmerga for the right time. The reason why the fans wanted them more than Viktor and Flik is because of one thing : mystery (just like Jeane). Either of them works. If Yuber is not there but Pesmerga is, there is a chance that he might just reveal small tidbits about him and/or Yuber. I mean, like who they are and why does Pesmerga have a strange habit not to make sounds while walking, or skips sleeping 24/7. Who knows... the next time Pesmerga returns, he won't come again so late unlike in S2. But then again, we will have to wait for Suikoden 6. Because as the odds tell, even in the Suikoden 5 Characters List SARSAdmin gave us, neither Pesmerga nor Yuber are mentioned there. And so, if they're even to appear, it would be during the final stages and it's getting like S2 all over again.

I take that those who agreed that Pesmerga is not good at all are those who bothered to max everyone else to LV99. In that case, yes I agree that Pes may just suck right away. But not all people likes to do that. Most of them would rather just finish the game ASAP, and that's one of the cases where Pes may just come in useful. It's true, because I'm one of such kind who never bothered to level up like mad.)
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2005 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

sergio123 wrote:
It's very simple. Flik and Viktor are hilarious.
Out of all the character duo's you've mentioned


Not to mention, they are two of the stronger characters in the game. Playing through the first Suikoden I used them almost religiously. That's because I'm typically more of a hack and slash character anyway.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 4:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

During my first playthroughs of 1 and 2, I never thought about not using them heheh.

They seemed more of staple characters than Gremio, or Nanami even. And of course, the fact that they add that older style of RPG characters is a plus. Hell, these two are ALWAYS drinking whenever they get the chance.

Without them, 3 and 4 seem even that much more empty of games. The adult style left with them (Geddoe and friends didnt replace well)
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Blue thunder's description of Viktor was perfect. I couldn't agree more.

Anyway, Viktor and Flik are both very well made characters, and their character development were among the best in the entire SUikoden series. They're vast involvement in the game simply makes people more inclined towards them with all the nostalgic feelings they generate.

Besides, while they may not be the best characters to be used, they are generally good enough for most players. Their personalities were well potrayed.

All these are reasons why they are loved, and still are despite us not having seen them for 3 suikoden games, and soon 4 suikoden games unless S5 miraculously contains them.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2005 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

People like them. They have something that makes people happy. Their own kind of character charisma I guess. They're just fun. Who cares about all the in depth details.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 2:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

(Forgive my lack of backstory as I never got the chance to play S1 nor do I own a system to play the further installments of the series. I shake my fists angrily at the heavens but that's another story.)

I was also kinda disappointed when I found out that Flik and Viktor wouldn't be returning in S3 and after reading your post, I was reminded of why I felt that way. Because they fleshed out the world of the silent protagonist more than anyone else has, save for Jowy and Nanami but that's only because they're "Family". While Shu does most of the talking for Riou, he only does this in a very business-like fashion while Flik and Viktor were the more casual voice of the hero that spoke to the rest of the men, even if they didn't do it often. I always saw them as being the more human side of the Dunan unification army when compared to Shu's cold and calculating presence which endears them to me more so than any of the other military bigwigs that you have in your army.

The game was predominantly about war so I understand the need for Shu to be so succinct and precise but it really is the heart of the army that made them so great. And I don't think there was anyone there who had a bigger heart than Flik and Viktor.
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