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Forgiveness and Atonement
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Admiral Ackbar

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 11:25 am    Post subject: Forgiveness and Atonement Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I'm confused on a certain issue in Suikoden 4. This one has been bugging me for a while and I can't understand it.

We've all been told that the Rune of Punishment governs the powers of "forgiveness and attonement" in Suikoden 4.

But when were these aspects ever used or expressed...?

I don't remember the hero using any power of "forgiveness" in the game, and I don't remember any power of forgiveness being used on him. And Lazlo forgiving Snowe and various other characters and recruiting them doesn't count...that's what every Tenkai Star does. That's nothing special or new, and every person can do that with or without a rune that supposedly governs forgiveness.

And what about Attonement? In order to attone you have to do something that would warrant attonement. The hero did nothing wrong. He didn't kill Glen, he didn't destroy Iluya, he didn't poison the people of Na-Nal...he didn't do anything that would require him to attone and reflect upon whatever it was that he did wrong.

Now if you just look at the powers of the rune, "forgiveness and attonement", you have a certain picture painted in your head. Those two words make you think of someone that has committed some kind of moral crime. That person must then attone for what he has done. Then he must seek out (or be given) forgiveness. If you ask me the only instance of anything like this is with Snowe. Snowe fits this description perfectly. Why didn't Snowe have the Rune of Punishment then? They could have given the hero another True Rune, one that would of made sense. Bearers don't choose thier True Runes...thier True Runes choose them. True Runes choose bearers that will help them get power or fulfill some kind of need. Tir got the Soul Eater because he was surrounded by friends and the Soul Eater takes the lives of those close to the bearer. Riou and Jowy got the Rune of Beginning because they were best friends that led oppossing armies, and Rune of Beginning is a rune of war. So why did Lazlo get the Rune of Punishment? He was simply nearby.

And another issue I have...we're told that the Rune of Punishment has powers over "forgiveness and attonement" but what does it actually do in game? Lets look at what it does:

It drains the life of the bearer in order to become more powerful. It shows the bearer painful memories of past bearers and feeds off the misery the bearer feels. After finally siphoning all the energy it needs off of the bearer it moves on to a random person in the vicinity.

Okay, that is all fine and dandy. But what does any of that have to do with Forgiveness and Attonement? That sounds more like a Rune of Misery or something. The main aspect of the rune seems to be it's tendancy to show its current bearer painful memories of past bearers and feed off the painful experience the bearer is having.

But what does that have to do with Forgiveness? Those people are already dead, why would they be forgiven? Especially considering many of them were nice people (the Queen of Obel, the Little Boy, Rakgi's father) who did nothing wrong and have no reason to be forgiven. These people are chosen at random every time a past bearer dies...the rune doesn't seek out a prime choice like a morally corrupt person or a murderer. This makes it strangely different than other runes, which wait for a prime target instead of hopping around to the nearest person they find.

And for Attonement? Like I said, the past bearers have done nothing in particular wrong...why would they need to attone? Maybe Edgar did since he was a pirate. But Rakgi's father? Rakgi and Rikie made him out to be a nice guy. The Queen of Obel? She was said to be a great woman.

I could understand if the rune forced its bearers to do bad things. That would force the bearers to seek forgiveness and attonement. But the Rune of Punishment never forces it's bearers to do anything. Lazlo freely used it's power to blow navies away whenever he felt like it.

Even the rune's name is confusing. Rune of Punishment. But when was there ever any punishment? Lazlo never used any powers of punishment and was never dealt any punishment through the rune. Unless you count the self-damaging effects of using the rune in battle. But thats a very weak arguement, considering that "punishment" is just a weak in-battle effect.

So if anyone could explain this to me, please do:

How exactly does the Rune of Punishment govern Attonement and Forgiveness? When does it ever express these aspects? How do any of its abilities express these aspects? What does showing the bearer painful memories accomplish in regards to these aspects? Why does the rune go to a random nearby person every time its old bearer dies, unlike every other True Rune?

Explanations would be appreciated.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 11:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Ok i will answer these as well as i can.

Quote:

Why does the rune go to a random nearby person every time its old bearer dies, unlike every other True Rune?


The rune jumps to the closest person to keep getting more powerfull with each life it consumes.

Quote:

How exactly does the Rune of Punishment govern Attonement and Forgiveness?


The rune forgives the person it has killed and sends them to the grave so that they dont have to carry the burden of carrying the true rune.The attonement bit is when you have used the rune to do something,it will consume your live as a punishment.E.G:when glen used the rune to destroy the pirates fleet attacking he gets his life taken as a punishment.

Quote:

When does it ever express these aspects?


It expresses the aspects sevarel times although they are not all shown.Like when brandeau used the rune to kill the kinghts and his assasin,the rune punished him by taking some of his life as attonement.Once he was destroyed in the runes memeries he is then forgiven.

Quote:

What does showing the bearer painful memories accomplish in regards to these aspects?


You could say that it forgives its old bearers after showing the new bearer its memeries of the person.It would also show that when the person is shown it proves that they have attoned for what they have done during the time they ahd the rune.

Those are my answers i hope they help.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 11:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Ok I'll try to write something but I don;t know it will explain something.
So Rune of Punishment is one of 27 True runes. That know all of us. We also know that True Runes govern all aspects of Suikoden world. And I think they governs it globally.Rune of Punishment isn't strictly connected to one person's actions and atonement. It governs atonement and forgivness of all people. So probably there are a lot of people commiting crimse and so on and the Rune punishes them by killing them one after another. Moreover people when have the RoP are commiting crimes. For example that pirate that killed Edgar, then Brandeau, Cray and so on.RoP changes to the forgiveness phase after Hero's actions. So maybe RoP was convinced that not all people are bad and because of that Hero was able to use it without negative effects(remember fights in fort El-Eal-RoP wasn't doing any damage to Hero when you have 108 SoD or in other words- You have forgiven Snowe three times). We could speculate that if Hero starts to use RoP in bad way, it could again change into atonement phase. Ok thats all from me. If it isn't much sense than please FORGIVE me. :wink:
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Lazlo is not atoning for his crimes but for the crimes of all the past bearers of the Rune of Punishment. That is why he has to suffer through the past images and defeat each memory, thus forgiving them for their transgressions and atoning for their sins.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Also, the Key of Forgivness was shown ingame when Lazlo forgave Snowe.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 11:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I've had this question since S1. I don;t think RUnes "govern" these forces as much as they "embody" them. Governing a force means that the Rune ahs some kind of cosmic power over the entire world. RUnes seem to be much more localized in their reach. If the SOul Eater "governed" life and death, there could be no death anywhere that was not a difrect result of the influence of the Soul Eater. This Rune would be killing people millions of miles away that never came into contact with it. It's the same with the RoP. It would mean that the RUne or its intelligence sits in judgment of everyone and dispenses forgiveness and atonement according to its own set of rules. It clearly does not. The Runes have powers that fit the motif of the concepts, but it hardly governs them. That would make the Runes like gods. Even though they are venerated, the Runes are not gods.

That being said. The Soul Eater has nothing to do with life other than ending it. If it could heal and resurrect as well as kill, then maybe it would. Ted's Soul Eater has restorative abilities, but that's not enough in my mind. It's a Rune of death, not life and death.

Now on to the RoP. I agree with Blue Thunder it has nothing to do with atonement or forgiveness. I can see the argument of having to "atone" for using iots powers on someone else, but think about it. Would Lazlo have had to attone for using a Rage Rune to nuke the Kooluk fleet? No. It is a Rune of pain and sadism. The game designers just had to give it some hoity-toity description and says it "governs" two themes it has nothing to do with. The Rune may exact a price for using its powers, but that is neither atonement or forgiveness.

Ad the argument about forgiving Snowe, I was trying to do that since the first time he attacked me by the Pirate's Nest. he refused to let himself be forgiven. I didn't hold it against him that he kept attacking me. Sparing his life each time you beat him is, in essence, forgiving him (especially when you choose the recruitment option in the dialogue each time). SO why does the Rune wait until he goes along with the idea to seal its evil powers? Um, news flash, Mr. Rune, I forgave him a long time ago.

And the Rune doesn't forgive its bearers by letting them die, it just spits out the caracs once it has no use for them anymore. Them being freed of the curse is a pleasant side-effect, not the Rune's intention.

And I also agree with Blue when he says that the bearers did nothing to warrant atonement. Brandeau nonwithstanding, the vast majority of the bearers we've seen (Lazlo, Glenn, Obel Queen, Cray's son) used the Rune's power to protect others. Brandeau used it in an ill-fated attempt to save himself, but each of the others used it to destroy those who would unjustly harm those they loved. Nothing about atonement, nothing about forgiveness. Maybe calling it the "Rune of Sacrifice" would be more accurate?
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2005 12:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The users are atoning for the sins of the entire world, not themselves or previous owners. It follows the Suikoden theme of the fight against fate. Lazlo is a good person cursed by fate to atone for the sins of others. It's not fair; that's why it's a cursed rune.

If I recall, Leknaat shows up to announce to transition from Atonement to Forgiveness. By collecting the 108 stars and changing destiny and doing good happy things for the world, Lazlo escapes the Rune of Punishment. The Rune now forgives the world and therefore Lazlo does not have to atone for it. So he doesn't die; yay for him.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2005 2:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:

The users are atoning for the sins of the entire world, not themselves or previous owners. It follows the Suikoden theme of the fight against fate. Lazlo is a good person cursed by fate to atone for the sins of others. It's not fair; that's why it's a cursed rune.

If I recall, Leknaat shows up to announce to transition from Atonement to Forgiveness. By collecting the 108 stars and changing destiny and doing good happy things for the world, Lazlo escapes the Rune of Punishment. The Rune now forgives the world and therefore Lazlo does not have to atone for it. So he doesn't die; yay for him.
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Well it seems everyone else has explained it better than i did so sorry if i caused misunderstanding.
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Axiose

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2005 5:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Am I being thick - why are you calling Hero 4 Lazlo? Is that his official name? I couldn't find a thread about it...
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2005 5:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Yes Axiose, that is his official name. The thread is in the character discussion forum and it it is close to the top.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2005 5:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Damn, I was thinking about it being in the Suikoden V forum. Hangs head.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2005 6:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Heh its not your fault everything is spread around you know but its well kept by SARS right.
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Admiral Ackbar

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2005 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:
Lazlo is not atoning for his crimes but for the crimes of all the past bearers of the Rune of Punishment. That is why he has to suffer through the past images and defeat each memory, thus forgiving them for their transgressions and atoning for their sins.


But only a few of them actually sinned. What did Glenn do? Cray's son? The Queen of Obel? Rakgi's father? Thier only sin was getting the Rune of Punishment.

Quote:
Also, the Key of Forgivness was shown ingame when Lazlo forgave Snowe.


But thats what I explained below, any Tenkai Star does that. Riou forgave Jowy at the end of Suikoden 2. Tir forgave every one of the Five Great Generals. Lazlo would have forgiven Snowe even if he didn't have the rune.

Quote:
I don;t think RUnes "govern" these forces as much as they "embody" them.


This is true. True Runes embody the forces of existence. Thier presence allows certain aspects of existence to...well, exist. With the exception of the five True Elemental Runes, the True Runes represent mostly nonphysical forces, the various aspects of existence. Death, order, change, conflict, compassion, chaos, etc.

But even so, the Rune of Punishment still had to represent this in battle or in the story. You never really witness what the rune really does. It blasts a bunch of ships out of the water several times but you never really get a feeling for what the rune is really about.

Quote:
It's a Rune of death, not life and death.


Yes. The "Rune of Life and Death" title is used because the Soul Eater can take lives, or can choose not to. Plus it sounds cool!
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2005 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Glenn sinned plenty. He was a Naval Captain. I'm pretty sure he took his share of lives. Also, he destroyed people using the Rune of Punishment, as well. Cray's son killed off SME nobles using the Rune of Punishment to do this by the way. The Queen of Obel killed many protecting her people again with the Rune of Punishment. Rakghi's father left his family to go out on his own. I'm pretty sure he used the Rune of Punishment to do various ill, thus he was destroyed by it.

So, you say what sin they did but you are not looking at the big picture. The Rune of Punishment does not come to a person because they sin but in hopes that they will atone for the sins of others. If they use the Rune of Punishment to kill, then that is a sin no matter if it is done for the right means. Lazlo was just the destined person to properly atone for the evils done by other who possessed the Rune of Punishment. The others were at the wrong place at the wrong time, but no person is without sin.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2005 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I believe the use of the rune's power requires atonement and once atonement has been achieved then you are granted forgiveness.

Definition: Atonement - Religious concept in which obstacles to reconciliation with God are removed, usually through sacrifice.

So as the user of the rune sacrifices his life force he is granted atonement [for the sin of using the rune's power] then forgiven and ultimately granted eternal peace.

Why does the rune force the bearer to use it's power is the real question.
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