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St. Ajora

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 2:40 pm    Post subject: The singer thread, continued Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Now now, before you get all huffy and flame me for continuing an old locked thread, let me clear this up :P I'm not resurrecting any of the topics discussed in that thread, except the points that wataru and Urn brought up (I think it was them) about how everyone can hold it pitch but it takes more to sing, etc. Urn mentioned that Elvis wasn't really as talented as he is cracked up to be, and it got me thinking about the recent reality tv takeover that we have been forced to endure for the last 5 years- namely, the musical ones.

I'd like to hear Wataru14 and Urn's point of view and opinions of television shows such as American Idol and whatnot. The reason I specifically ask this is because I found their explanations very interesting and enlightening for someone that has hardly any musical knowledge whatsoever. I myself sometimes enjoy watching the Idol series, but for the life of me I cannot take it or any of its performers seriously. I lack the knowledge to critique. What are everyone else's views on American (or your country's version) Idol? Are these people for real? I don't consider many of them very good singers at all. Canadian Idol seems to be even worse. There are still people hanging around with weak stage presences and voices. It seems to be the worst season so far. But I'm just rambling. Is there any substance to these reality tv contestants, or are they really just mediocre talent placed in the spotlight for ratings? I'm inclined to think that, but since I really have no experience in music, and singing, I really can't make an educated judgement.

So what do you guys think about them? And about the JUDGES? Who seem to offer no realistic nor helpful "critisism" at all?
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Krawnik

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Oh sure, rag on the Canadians why doncha?

I think the shelf-life of these "idols" is testament enough to the legitimacy of the Idol series. I mean, the winners all get a record deal, right? Then they all release, say, one single, with limited success. Then, they disappear forever.

In order to win the contest you have to be a good singer, for sure, and have some decent stage prescence, but everyone who wins seems to get trapped into releasing an album of crappy-pap teeny bopping radio style pop music that only the braindeadest of adolescent girls would consider listening too.

So it doesn't seem to matter that they can sing well enough to best all the competition, most of them end up crippled by their poor taste in music, inability to withstand the record company's poor taste in music, or any of the other pitfalls encountered when releasing soppy pop music.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

American Idol is terrible. All it is is an excuse for lame record companies to make money off the gullible public. The competitors are never as good as professional singers anyways, so the show just churns out crappy pop artists who probably don't even write half the lyrics to their songs.
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Urn

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I'm sorry to say this, but I generally agree with Crono's statements in reference to American Idol and various other musical based reality shows. It is just a new way for the music industry to exploit individuals in order to increase television ratings. Of course, I agree that the singers who win have talent, but the talent is commercialized and does not emphasize the music or the skills of the artist.

The people who run the show don't care about the talent of the artist. They are interested in ratings. How can you assess true talent that way? Sure, by the end of the show the viewers get to vote, but by that time the people that were unwanted would have already been weeded out even though they may have had the talent to move on. It is shear exploitation of a once considered sacred art.

They are giving these individuals a get rich quick plan based on an image that they want to portray. Talent is clearly secondary. They dismiss the value of hard work and effort which is traditionally the tell-tale signs of who would succeed in the industry. It is just too much image based corporate nonsense instead of true appreciation of the art.

Music has just gone through so much commercialization that a singer can be made if there is little resemblance of talent these days and American Idol is clearly proving this every time that show takes in top ratings when it is shown. That's why there is no longer any really memorable musicians and everyone has the same sound. There is no more room for individuality or uniqueness and that is what the art was truly supposed to portray. It is sad to see how even talent can be made nowadays. Elvis was just the one of the first (certainly not the first) to benefit from it.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

*sigh*

Before you start to worry I won't say anything controversial or heated so calm down.

Well Judging from a local version I have to say that most people didn't know how to sing or had particularly good voices (in the local one they specifically cared for both appearance and the "Pop look" as they said, as apparently differently to the some in the rest of the world, so no fatties in the final).

Well, the judges were agents and they simply looked for good-looking people (in one case some girl didn't particularly looked good but had a good voice, and one of the judges said that "science makes wonders this days" and they advanced her from the first audition, she didn't go beyond that) and people who had stage presence and somewhat of a good voice.

So from all the people they managed to gather (I think 20 or so pretty boys and girls between the age of 18 and 22, yes you had to be between that age older or younger didn't work) they gathered them up gave them some voice dancing lessons and so on and had weekly runs or whatever.

At the end from the few that remained had actually good voices fortunately and were rather attractive, and had I suppose that "Pop Look" or whatever the agents meant by that.

The boy who actually won had a rather good voice BUT it wasn't "Pop", it was a bit deep and he simply wasn't cut out for pop despite what the agents wanted, because the public liked the kid's voice because it resembled a dead local music legend that had nothing to do with pop after all.

After he won he had an album with music that you can barely call "pop" (with rather moderate success) and currently sings in night clubs (don't worry around here is the norm that is not particularly low).

The point is that this shows are there for several reasons that I won't say again I think I already did, though some of the people involved had good voices, at least they got some exposure that might have helped them on a better future, now...

You don't need particularly good knowledge in music to judge a good singer, if you personally like a voice (I personally like Celin Dion's voice for instance) it doesn't matter if he/she don't have a "good voice" since it appeals to you, is the same dilemma as in games, you like a game everybody says is not good and you start to think: why do I like it?

Should I like it since everyone says is bad or mediocre?

Now as for what goes in general I won't go on to avoid saying upsetting things again.
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Wataru

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The biggest problem with American Idol is that is isnlt a reliable source. First off, you have three judges. I tend to agree with Simon most times, myself. He is a longtime producer and music mogul, so he knows not only what sells, but what is good. Another judge (Paula) ia a grinning idiot who tells everyone how wonderful they are no matter how terrible their performance was. What do you expect from a dancer who is trying to judge singers? Randy doesn't know what he's talking about half the time and just spews words like "pitchy" (whether they're accurate or not) and plays to the crowd.

Idol is all about what sells. Why else do you think the audience decides who wins? It's a marketing gimmick. This way you are sure that a large chunk of people will buy the album because you got your demographic research out of the way with the voting process. Do you think the average teenager at home has the slightest idea about staying power and true talent? Look at the crap the avergae teenager buys today and tell me you value their opinion.

The only thing about Idol that is somewhat redeeming is that people have to have at least decent voices to get far on the show. I know people who have auditioned and have gone on to varying levels of success in the show, inlcuding one who made it to the top 12 this last season. When you audition, you don't get to see Simon and company right off the bat. You have to see preliminary judges who work for the record company. They are instructed to pass on people who are really good AND really bad, You have to go through several rounds of this beofre you even get close to SImon and Paula and Randy. This is why all those rancid performers who get on TV think they are so good. They have been told by at least four rounds of different judges that they are really good. They have seen people who are really talented go home, while they're still around. They are being lied to and manipulated. You might say "Oh these people can't really think they're good, do they?" Well, if four rounds of record company execs told you you were, you'd probably believe them.

Once you get to TV, you sing live, so you can't rely on audio fixes and digital help. So you have to have people with good voices or else the show loses any credibility it may have earned. Now we go back to the style problem. The girls on the show tend to be better true vocalists than the guys, but it's still more about performance than vocals. I have heard so many people strain their voices to hit notes they can't reach because they have to do a song in a particular style. I've seen people who couldn't carry a tune in a suitcase get rave reviews from the judges because they threw in a dance routine and played with the crowd. Charisma and showmanship is needed to be a star, but really. If you're being called a SINGER, then SINGING should be the number one priority.

But also consider the prize. You get a contract with SImon's label. You are singing songs written by his writers. You are handled by his agents and his stylists. He has the career already waiting for the right face to come along.

Again, Idol is more about showmanship than singing talent.
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Tony Stark

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

You have to take American Idol for what it is. Its not who can sing the best its who has the most marketable voice and body.

A friend of mine named Grant tried out for American Idol, and though he has one of the most amazing voices I've ever heard and is leagues better than a whole lot of people I see on their show, he didn't get in. My guess was that it had nothing to do with how well he sang, but you really can't market this Operatic sort of voice he has. Also, he looks nothing like your normal rock/rap/pop star.

Also, look at the winners and what they've been able to do with their careers since. Clay Aiken (who didn't actually win) is from North Carolina (where I live) and when his album came out all the stores stayed open a few more hours just so people could get their fix of him. No one came. Ruben also had a very marketable appeal, due to his soul appearance but relatively pop voice. However, since American Idol, I have seen very little of him other than seeing his album at the record store the other day. The only album they had more copies of was Gwen Stefani's album. Now, he could very well be sucessful, I have no idea and I haven't looked at his record sales, but I don't think he's hit it that big since the show.

Kelly Clarkson, I think, on the other hand, is having not a bad career. I have quite a few friends that hate pop who have her "Since You Been Gone" song or whatever on their computer. I think that she sounded a lot more talented on American Idol, but I don't watch the show anymore and only watched an episode of the first season so... I'm not an expert.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Kelly is doing well.

Justin made that wrecthed movie with Kelly and is now a has-been.

Reuben hasn't had any radio play since that "I'm Sorry" song was voted one of the most "Awesomely Bad Songs of All Time" by VH1.

Clay ... is a joke.

Fantasia appeared on the Simpsons, and that's about it.

Diana DiGarmo who?

As for Carrie and Bo, the future ain't all that bright, is it?

Well, at least the top 10 (I think) get to make a little money from the album and the "American Idols" Tour.
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Urn

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Actually, Fantasia is doing quite well in the urban areas especially D.C., MD, VA, and NY. I also believe her last album went double platinum, but that is neither here nor there do to various payola scams. I guess it depends on your demographic. But, I basically agree with your statements about the rest of them.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Wow, that's weird about Fantasia. I should listen to the radio more. I have not heard a peep out of her since, "I broke my shoe!"
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 11:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The thing about the Idol shows is that they tried to create an "idol". It's not a singing contest, it's a reality show to create an idol. Whether or not the winner really becomes an idol, that's another story, because in the end, it's up to the winner itself. The show can do you only so much. After the show ends, it'd be up to you on how you become an idol or not. That's why we seen Kelly Clarkson still doing well, while most of the others aren't. She can be an idol, most of the others cannot.

I'll take it from Australian Idol since I'm in Australia. The winner of Australian Idol 1, Guy Sebastian, is still reasonably successful after 2 albums released because I feel that he got talent and star quality. On the other hand, the winner of Australian Idol 2, Casey Donovan, is really heading toward the has-been group a few months after winning the competition. Why? Because despite having great voice, she doesn't have the star quality. She was quiet and frankly speaking, boring. She doesn't have star power to gather attention to her. People listened and liked how she sung in the show, but once the show ended, no one cared about her anymore.

Going back to St.Ajora's initial comment about how there are still competitors who have weak stage presence etc even on the Top 10-12 show, one thing that I have to note is that these people are (mostly) amateurs. That's one important thing to remember because that is why some can cope well, some cannot (and resulted in weak performance due to being nervous or whatever).

Australian Idol 3 now reached the Top 30 and 2 groups had gone. In group 2, there was this guy with such an amazing voice during the audition, but it was clear that he was an amateur with natural voice. He never had vocal lessons, he never joined the choir, never sung with a band, etc. Practically he only sings for fun throughout his life. In the semi-final show, he sang quite out of tune for most of the song. Despite having great natural voice, he simply cannot just miracly blend with the band to produce good performance. Hence, he didn't get through. This is the exact proof that singers can't just rely on their natural voice alone.

In the end, I'd just like to repeat the main point, that the Idol shows can result in an idol being made. However, it's still up to the people themselves. If you are a star, then you'll make it. If you are not, then you'd go to the has-been group quickly.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 11:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

While all of this seems to fit even the contestants on the idols sometimes have sheer star power, yet still dont win for some reason or another. I mean I am going to use for example someone from last seasons Canadian Idol which I essentially had to watch because I was at the computer, and it was on behind me. The person I am talking about is Jacob Hoggard for those who watched it, or heard about it anyway.

You had a guy who clearly had a level of showmanship, and talent that surpassed the others. He was constantly putting on shows during his songs, coming out in costumes, and attire fitting the genre of song he was singing. He was a character, whom could easily back it up with his musical talent. I mean you could make mention about, well what about the band behind him, did he flow well with it, and he did. I mean he himself has a band of his own, so it would come naturally to him to perform with a band. Thats just my thoughts anyway, so take that for what it's worth people.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 11:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Well the winner is not always the best, the winner is only the one with the most votes. That's practically it. I'm not familiar with Canadian Idol, but I can think of a similar scenario that happened in Australian Idol 1 and 2 (happened to Paulini from series 1, clearly the best voice in the competition ended up 4th, and to Ricki-Lee from series 2, similar like your Jacob Hoggard situation ended up 6th).

The reason why they did not win is simply because they had the lowest vote when they got out. People might not vote because they think that these competitors are that good and would get enough vote to go through anyway, not realizing that every single vote counts.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 12:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Yeah I am somewhat aware of how the system works, but you know sometimes people just screw up in their voting, and keep around boring performers. I dont know about any of you, but if I wanted to actually watch that crap, I would rather watch someone that was at least a bit entertaining. Oh, and just to let you know forthose that didnt personally watch it anyway, Jacob Hoggard got third.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 12:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Well the problem is that people have different taste, opinion, and reason to vote. Some vote simply based on look. Some vote simply based on nightly performance. Some vote simply based on their favorites. And so on. So what you consider as boring performers might not mean boring for others. Plus, the fans would probably voted more as they realized that their favorite might get kicked out of the competition.

While most of the times there is a general opinion that X is the best competitor, it just doesn't mean that X is going to win it. That's what I sometimes hate about Idols, that they vote who to stay, so if the winner got 10 million votes, that doesn't mean that s/he got the most fans. Could mean that s/he has the least fans, but the fans are willing to vote like crazy.

Ideally, IMO, there should be a limit on 1 phone number can only vote for every competitor once. That way, the vote total would actually reflect how many fans support the competitor. But of course, they're out there to make money with the phone company anyway.
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