religion in games

[kuwaizair]

I don't recall if this has been discussed before, I checked the game/anime forum history and don't see one titled such.

Anyway before anyone goes off on a tangent on how "you don't talk about religion" this is, well a slightly different topic, this isn't a normal "religion debate" its more or less of "put god into your game".

Anyway, some games skip the whole notion of "valiant heroes go to destroy demon-wizard-king" this makes for an interesting game, I find, putting a "spiritual/religious" aspect into a game's plot makes it "darker" how so? Well sometimes it's easy to see. It also adds culture and depth, it aids to the tale, it invokes emotions and makes it more real I think. Even if, the notion of battling gods is, without a doubt "more fantasy-like".

So, for this topic we choose a game that has this aspect in it, hopefully a lot, predomitaly or "its all about it" (to some degree) sure some games may have characters say, "oh my god you are going to hell for eating my puppy" but otherwise you never see it.

In this topic we can also discuss things deeply, I know a lot of games (rpgs mainly) have stuff like this in the games, maybe we can come to an understanding why, sure it may be ‘offensive" to toy around "with the notion of god/religion" for the sake of a fantasy game/story, but where those tid-bits came from, and how bastardized they are (I know lets put a holy grail into our game.... good idea). Sometimes you gave gods, sometimes others, sometimes you need to fight ‘god' or you find out special things about special people.

So you choose a game, of course you tell us what game it is, where this topic is in the game, how prevalent it is. You talk about how important the topic is in its plot, and what may be offensive. Summarize the plot and its role; try not to add spoilers, without warning and blanked out text. Also what makes the game special because of this? Was it really necessary?

If you can find anything else to say please add it, my mind is at a blank, I thought of this topic around the same time yesterday, but didn't post it when I got home, a lot of what was to be said is lost, and how I was to say it.

Lots of games have this element, Final Fantast tactics being one.
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few runes short of a set of 27

[St. Ajora]

I don't see the issue with religion in video games. Let's see, Breath of Fire 2, Final Fantasy 10 and Tactics, Xenogears...it's not exactly a new concept, where religion is used to control the people and such. I don't really understand what you are getting at though. Religion is there because so many people are familiar with it- introducting a concept such as a false religion can be horrifying and all too realistic, which is why those storylines are there in the first place. Maybe they are also there as satire. I don't know. The only ones that I think would be offended by these plot devices are deeply religious people. I mean it's not really a big deal, since all of the above games borrow things from numerous myths and religions. It's not like the games are proclaiming "Hey Christianity is hypocritical and if you play through you'll find out why".

[Cedric]

I can't really state too many examples at the top of my head, but for the most part, Religion in games does indeed add a darker theme to the game. If a game focuses on a religion, then it is likely that it will become one of the opposing forces. My detailing is sketchy at the moment, but a few examples would be the religion in Final Fantasy 10, Breath of Fire 3, and Guardian's Crusade.

Final Fantasy 10 had the Yevon religion that was of course fake. It's been a while since I played, so I'm going to have to let someone else explain the Yevon religion.

Breath of Fire 3 had a religion worshipping the Goddess Myria. Actually, the example I was going for was Garr's point of view. He murdered the Brood without them fighting back or defending at all. So he had to come to grips about his role and ask the Goddess what was it all for.

Guardian's Crusade also had a religious sect based on St . . . something. But they were really monsters trying to enslave towns. In one point of the game, they took over 2 towns forcing you to rescue them.

Game makers use the blind devotion of the people as a catalyst to use Religion as an enemy. Whether people are manipulated or have the utmost genuine faith, Religion is the other way (Aside from being the main bad guys/gals) to explain an uprising against the heroes. No one can question it because it's not too much of a stretch to think that someone would believe in their religion so much that they are willing to kill for it.

There are times when Religion is set in a good light such as Xenogears (Sophia's "religion" not Billy's), but in those types of games, the good religion barely gets a detailed description. Using that same example, Billy's religion had more of a detailed story then Sophia's.
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[kuwaizair]

Oh yeah, hey don't forget games that were made to be religious games...I forget their names but I saw somthing once, it didn't look logical. or the Noah's ark game.

anway thanks Ced for understanding my post. when I'm feeling better and recollect my thoughts/memory I'll post about Rudra's tressure..that one has some stuff in it.
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few runes short of a set of 27

[Krawnik]

I think the topic is more about the mysterious abundance of misrepresented religious establishments in video games. Not to say that real religions are being misrepresented, just that there's a curious number of corrupt or downright evil religions in video games, particularly RPGs.

Spoilers! Oh, God, so many Spoilers! FFX and FFT Spoilers, for all my people!

Take Final Fantasy X. I never beat it myself, but I got a respectable percentage of it under my belt before giving up, and I also helped my friend beat the final boss (the final one that you can actually lose against, anyway), and proceeded to watch the ending, so I know more or less the entire plot, at least the surface-level plot. Basically, the only established religion in Spira is, big surprise, corrupt and oppresive. While characters like Yuna help to shape the notion that not everyone abiding by this religion has gone astray, you're basically given the impression that down to it's roots, the religion (the name of which I forget) has become morally bankrupt.

It could be strewed as some kind of religious satire, but honestly? I don't think it holds water. For a start, there's only the one religion, which doesn't adequetly represent the religious situation of reality. Also, the religion, if I'm not mistaken, involves the Aeons, which can be summoned, and felt, and directly communicated with, as opposed to say, a God, who is off in the clouds. Not to mention that "Sin" in this game is a giant monster, as opposed to the slightly more subtle human evil tendancies that "sin" refers to in reality. So the entire concept is a little too grandiosce, almost farcical, to be a respectable comment on any real religion.

Final Fantasy Tactics, as Kuwaizair mentioned, also has heavily religious overtones, and you guessed it, the church is corrupt to a tee. What stands out most about the religion of Ivalice, though, is that rather that being some high-flying monster-fighting band of hip young evil-doers like in FFX, the Glabados Church is clearly based firmly in Christianity (with the added twist of incorporating the traditional Chinese Zodiac). You've got your Son of God (Jesus/Ajora) being betrayed by one of his own (Judas/Germonik), selling him as a criminal to the government (Yudora Empire/Roman Empire). During Ajora's time, Ivalice was subdivided into seven kingdoms (Zeltennia, Fovoham, Lionel, Limberry, Lesalia, Gallionne, Murond) who later united to become Ivalice. Similarly, In Jesus' time Israel was divided into twelve tribes descended from the sons of Jacob (Judah, Issachar, Zebulun, Reuben, Simeon, Gad, Ephraim, Manasseh, Benjamin, Dan, Asher, Naphtali). Ajora is executed at Golgorand Execution site after being betrayed by Germonik, and Jesus was executed at Golgotha, Place of the Skull, after being sold to the Romans by Judas.

This is where not only the story of St. Ajora (not the Island's own St. Ajora, of course) in Tactics gets freaky, but also where the allegations toward the real Christian Church begin. If we ignore the whole "Zodiac Brave Story" (Which Ramza believes may have been fabricated anyway, after he reads the Germonik Scriptures) part of Ajora's life, we find striking similarities between his life and Jesus'. However, in the Germonik Scripture's Ajora is written to be completely non-divine, he is even said to be a spy (working for an unmentioned faction) infiltrating and agitating the Yudora Empire. He is said to be much more of a political figure, and Germonik (also a spy) suggests that he was created to be a religious figure only after his death by a Church founded on lies, using a newly Deified St. Ajora as a kind of God, using his famous name in tandem with the legend of the Zodiac Brave Story to command believers, getting them to act in accordance with the Church's political mandate in the name of "Faith" and "Piety".

While this religious comment is a bit more legitimate (and infinitely better written), it's still more than a little proposterous. The idea of taking a famous historical and political figure and using him as a basis for mass manipulation by infusing him with Divine tendancies and turning him into a God is an interesting one. Is Square trying to convey to it's audience that it thinks the Christian Church is corrupt, even going so far as to say that it has lies at it's foundation, and is really no more that a grand creation of propoganda? Using faith as the basis of manipulation?

It's interesting to say the least, but there are still some flaws in the comparison. I haven't completed Tactics either, so someone feel free to fill in any blanks that occur in the last half of the fourth chapter that further prove or disprove the Glabados/Catholicism parallels.

First of all, once more, there is only one established religion in Ivalice. And while this may have been true in the relative time period that Tactics is set in (Renaissance/Reformation), it is no longer true today.

Second, the Glabados Church infuses Ajora with not only divine components, but also magical abilities. The Zodiac Stones have magical powers as well as religious, and the inclusion of magical ability in Ajora is a strike against his legitimacy as a Jesus shadow.

Thirdly, Ajora is a warrior/spy character according to Germonik, and Jesus was neither. He was a pacifist, who promoted pacifistic ideals, and the Roman Empire feared his influence over the people, not his burgeoning magical/heroic traits.

Fourth, while Ajora was proclaimed a Child of God after performing his first miracle (telling the people of the village that a well was going to produce poisoned water) by humans, Jesus was proclaimed to be the Son of God before his birth, by scriptures and prophecies, by St. John the Baptist, and ultimately by the Angel Gabriel, who told Mary her son would be Divine. So Mary gave birth to who she knew full-well before his introduction to the world was the Son of God, whereas Ajora was assumed to be so only after his birth.

Finally, the chronicles of Ajora were written by Germonik, a self-proclaimed spy and the disciple who sold him to Yudora, while the Gospels were written by (or dictated by) people who surrounded and knew Jesus. In Germonik's scriptures, then, since he shows no signs of guilt for selling Ajora, he can portray him as being non-divine and honestly believe it, whereas Germonik's real-life counterpart Judas returned the silver he was payed with and hanged himself out of guilt on the same day that Jesus was put to death.

So you can see that while the parallels between Glabados and Christianity are certainly obvious, they still don't really create any formidable attack on the Christian Church.

I hope I've got all my facts straight, it's been a while since I took a Church History course. Feel free to correct me, everyone, I want to make sure my arguments are airtight.
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416- friggin' racists, messing up my generalizations, also stealing my jobs, women.
RIP Ninjalicious

[Raven]

vidio game religion is evil there is only 1 true religion. i just ignore vidio game religions. their all LIES!!! ahhhhhhhhhh

[Shrew]

Religion a la video games tends to reflect notions of medieval relgion. Meaning you have one major religion in the area that is corrupt and serves to elevate the elite and oppress the masses. And the masses never know it.

It's important to remember that games like Final Fantasy X and Tactics criticize old religion, and not so much modern religion. Today's religion is much more tolerant, and a bit less susceptible to corruption thanks to competition. There are exceptions, but it's far different than the monolithic hold of Catholicism over Europe in the middle ages.
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Fear our Vagueness.

[Benit149]

With me, religion is a hit-or-miss plot device. I guess if you use religious figures as part of the plot base, like Jesus or Joan d'Arc, that's okay. La Pucelle Tactics and Kamikaze Kaitou Jeanne are based upon the latter figure, and I've enjoyed both titles. Then there are the Christ figures, the ones who are sacrificed for the better good, and whether that it's totally followed upon or not depends upon the title. Tim from Wild ARMS 2 is an example of this.

However, I'm not fond of religions in games that involve delving further into it to discover something corrupted within it. That drives me nuts, yet it's all too real. People kill each other over gods that may or may not exist, money is being pilfered into religions, priests preach good but do things behind our backs... hell, in older times, the Church had quite the grip on society due to the lack of scientific explanations.

Getting back to games, these two differences help me determine if a game with a religion will be good. These examples demonstrate my varied feelings, and yes, there are SPOILERS.

Final Fantasy X - I rolled my eyes at the Yevon faith. I just can't express how obvious the turning point was when the party walks into Bevelle proper, what with Yevon shouting for no machina, yet the temple is comprised of nothing BUT machina. Is it making fun of religion's contradictory nature or something?

Stella Deus - I didn't finish this one, but its one sect, the Aeque, define what pure fanaticism is. I can't imagine myself sitting in a corner, waiting to die, while putting up resistance against those who hasten my death with killing or resisting the faith, blah blah blah. Needless to say, that got too complicated for me to understand. :roll:

Grandia II - This is a fairly good example, but still falls under the 'preach good, do evil' category. To be honest, it isn't much different from FFX, including corrupt priests secretly worshipping the evil god, using the heroine for their own purposes, the heroes toppling the religion and moving on with their own power, yadda yadda yadda. But at least Zera was more unexpected a villain than Seymour was.

La Pucelle - Pucelle's church seems to differ from the above in that the good and the bad are actually separate from each other. Noir may have been a bishop, but he kept his goals to himself while operating under the church, not letting even Father Salade know what was going on. When he did find out, he joined the heroes' bandwagon to stop Noir. That's incredibly rare in the world of gaming religions, and certainly wins my attention in the quest for originality.

Cowboy Bebop - SCRATCH, the virtual reality faith, was truly bizarre for me. It had some good, such as a futuristic faith working with the setting of Bebop, and quite an original way of enacting this faith, using a VR headset and sending your mind through some mechanical cosmos or whatever. But anything made by humans, from TVs to religions, has its failings. Let's just say that once the leader is gone, the religion disappears.

POINTLESS TANGENT DEAD AHEAD!!

I'm going to be speaking like the Devil's Advocate for a second here, so bear with me. During a blackout a couple of days ago, I refreshed myself on Japanese religion and how it ties in with anime and games. Note that Christianity is very unpopular in Japan, and whatever symbolisms they use are merely for entertainment's sake, especially the crucifix. But devout Westerners would scream blasphemy if they saw even a hint of reference to anything Christian, so that's what made-up religions exist for in RPGs. Perhaps Japan is quietly making fun of Christianity through these games, that it's a corrupt faith that would've destroyed Japan were it not for the Tokugawa shogunate banning the religion because of the annoying conflicts. After all, Japan got along just fine with Confucianism, Buddism and Shinto. Who needs Christianity to foul the mood?

If the above was true (and it may not be, since I enjoy exaggeration and musing), then Japanese game developers sure found a quiet way to poke fun at Christianity, using different names, motives, characters, etc. etc. But that doesn't mean American developers didn't notice this. Sailor Moon is a prime example of removing religious symbols, such as when Rubeus kidnaps the Senshi and puts them on crystal crosses, or when an image of some wicked-looking statue (I forget who) appears when Rei uses her powers. And in Star Ocean II, the original names of the Ten Wise Men were from Christianity. I only remember Indalecio = Gabriel and Cyril = Lucifer.

So religion in video games isn't always a bad thing, but eventually it gets boring and predictable to veterans, unless the developer can come up with an interesting twist. *phew* I really need to cut back on the musing...
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"Luca Blight, patron saint of population decrease." -- Benit, MST149

Benit149: First Lady of Addervon, Princess of Slight Fever, defender of the Nameless.

[PirateSigurd]

Why is Religion in games so much? mostly RPGs, I do believe Tales of Symphonia had religion stuff in it too.
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" I am one who wanders a million worlds, and one who watches this world's fate from afar " -Fog Ship Guide

"The Blood of the sea flows through my veins, I return to it now to be reborn" Troy

[Shrew]

Well, I think a lot of the Christian references aren't so much attacking or making fun of religion as they are just allusions. Western literature is full of influence and references to Eastern religion as well- though most of the time it's in a much more positive light.

The reason is probably because the Japanese, and especially the gamemakers, are more secular in nature then the west. If a Western person is dissatissfied with Christianity over here, they tend to still be spiritual and seek combinations of Eastern religions. I don't think the opposite is common in Japan; they wouldn't seek enlightenment through Christianity, but they may still research it.

Christianity cannot be ignored, and I think most people everywhere are familiar with its key ideas. Crosses are easily recognizable everywhere. Hence if a writer wants to bring some idea of religion or myth he'll bring in these common Christian symbols. Just like references to the Greeks and Norse show up in various western works. They're there to add something recognizable and to work as a symbol. Not to mock or attack.

Of course, from a Western view, we are very aware of everything Christian. If we see crosses combined with evil and destruction we think "Heresy!, Jesus should not go with blood!, it's insulting the church!", etc. So companies edit them out to avoid controversy.
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Fear our Vagueness.

[kuwaizair]

[Benit149]

I completely forgot Harmonia in my list. But I don't know if they're truly religious or if they're a military country operating under religious titles. But the point about us Westerners borrowing ideas from the east is true, so I guess it isn't schoolyard bullying as it is inspiration and ideas. Still, the Japanese do have their reasons for shrugging Christianity off, even so far as comparing Jesus to Hitler in the 1st volume of the Excel Saga manga, which dealt with Ilpalazzo frowning upon Cristmas as a commercialist holiday. I'm surprised the translation stayed. :shock:
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"Luca Blight, patron saint of population decrease." -- Benit, MST149

Benit149: First Lady of Addervon, Princess of Slight Fever, defender of the Nameless.

[Vextor]

[Jhones]

Well, the Shin Megami Tensei games have a decided anti-chrstianity spin to them...

Since the Main antagonist is none other then YAVHA. infact in Shin Megami Tensei: Noctune, you fight Gabriel, Uriel and Raphiel, aswell as Metatron, and in the True demon ending, you fight and ally with Lucifer.

Infact, fighting YAVHA, and breaking his power over the world's destiny has been the cornerstone of the SMT series, you even fight it in SMT2.
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I'm going to get myself banned if I keep acting like a jerk...

[Vextor]

Yeah, that's pretty much the entire focus of the shin megami tensei series. However, fighting against YHWH, Metatron, etc is not really anti-christian either, as the same beings are worshipped in Judaism and also in Islam.

Regardless, one series doesn't really equal "all Japanese games are anti-christian." That's basically a wrong assumption.