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kuwaizair
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 Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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I'm just gonna stop by again in this thead and mention that there are loads of niffty science findings concerning love, maternal love and romantic love, what happens to your brain and that some forms of love are "crack-like" and how it messes with brain chemesty and makes for rational behaviors/thinking.
Its intersting and depressing really.
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Tonberry
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| Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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R.A. Salvatore brought up this topic in his book, The Sea of Swords, in Drizzt's journal. I think I agree on what Drizzt thinks. He thinks that many people claim that they've found the only one person who can complete their soul. Logically, that doesn't make sense. If that person had been born in a different place, they would have never met the person that they claim is the only one. Logically, there are many people out there for each person that would be suitable, and it it circumstance, as opposed to fate, that brings two people together. However, when Drizzt thinks about Catti-brie, the woman he loves, all of the logic makes little sense. In his mind he knows that he could have met someone else, but in his heart he knows that she is the only one.
I know this is kinda hard to understand, but that's how I feel. My brain says one thing while my heart says another. I think that love is both mind and heart. You can't have true love without both I think. |
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Arenegeth
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| Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 1:27 am Post subject: |
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But, we don't know that hormones are in a certain way involved in love, so it's just his perception.
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We know for certain that hormones have to do with sex, and we know for certain that sex has to do with love since in the past people have fallen in love out of sexual desire since they occasionally combine, again a part not the whole thing.
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I don't see what attraction has to do with love personally. Being attracted to a person has something to do with sex, but nothing to do with love. So, proving part of the attraction served no purpose at all to me and really didn't further our knowledge of where love comes from in my opinion.
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As I said sex connects with love, I mean what man wouldn't fall in love with a sexually attractive woman after spending time with her (in some cases spending time is not even necessary), they are connected but just that connected sex is just a part of romantic love, but some times can be the reason for that love.
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It just means that you used examples that could not help but point a person towards one single conclusion and not allow for any others. Those examples were set in away that it was clearly obvious what your opinion on the topic was. In order to make good examples, it should not have a slant bent towards only your opinion but should be neutral.
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Neutral to what?
To soul to something that you just feel is there but have no way to prove it, I can prove the psyche and the brain, I'm open to things that make sense that can be proven or at least have an opening not in spirits and soul mates.
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Worng! Consider the fact that I never met my biological mother. Now what would you say? Thus, I could have no experiences with her, right?
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Wait is this another of your hypothesis or are you been serious here, then let me say something else, what if you find out that she isn't you biological mother after all but another woman is and there was some mistake (since you like hypothesis like this one) and she had nothing to do with you after all and then they show you your real mother, what happens then eh?
You see your minds is telling you I have to love because A, because B.
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I can say I agree that the need to connect on a physical and psychological level is involved in developing love, but I won't consent that it is love. Love can happen without conditions. It can be unrequited. It is supposed to be without cause. So, I don't know if that is love.
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That is not what love is love is the result, and love always happens on conditions in our sub conscience, we just don't know those particular ones in each case ourselves but they are still there.
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Whether or not tha is true or false, I cannot say, but falling in love with a celebrity cannot be seen as true love. I'd say that it is an illusion of love. I can't consent to that being love.
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It is the same thing practically, because again is all in the mind but then again...
What is the difference between falling in love with a celebrity or with a girl in school or at work that you never talked to and she doesn't even know that you exist?
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Yes, you can, but those are reasons for loving someone that you derive after being in love. That does not say when loving that individual began and certainly does not say where love comes from. When you love someone you don't say I choose to love you. You've already made that decision before the words come from your mouth or the thoughts appear in your head. The above are just reasons to love, but not where love comes from. You don't choose to love.
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You consciously don't but then again you do, is your sub conscience telling you to love or not to love when the feeling finally surfaces the reasons are lost in translation.
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Who is adding depth? The depth is already there? This topic asks where does love come from: the heart or the mind, and it is obvious that it is neither. I wouldn't have posted here if I didn't want to come to a conclusion, but I'm more than convinced that love comes from something other than emotions and reasons. So I choose not to live in an illusion as I pursue truth. Accepting an illusion would mean that I quit in my pursuit of knowledge. As for this topic, I just wanted to convince myself that there exist a spiritual bond between two people in an undefinable form or what we call love.
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This is where our paths cross, you choose to believe that there is a soul that love happens over some supernatural invisible thing with no explanation probably because you like the idea and honestly I do too.
But I rather look at the truth and just let my mind fall in love whenever it feels to I will not question it and say to a woman while I hold her hand "you know is our brain telling us to do it" but I will speak of love and romance and feeling what do I care if my mind is telling me to love for whatever A, B, C, sub conscience reason it feels good at the time so I go along with it but I know when and if the need arises that is just an emotional need and nothing else.
Remember you can't prove that you are right as I can't prove that you are wrong indefinitely, because what you say doesn't make sense in logical or scientific terms it doesn't mean that is the case.
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Urn
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| Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 10:32 am Post subject: |
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We know for certain that hormones have to do with sex, and we know for certain that sex has to do with love since in the past people have fallen in love out of sexual desire since they occasionally combine, again a part not the whole thing.
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Yes, sex is a part of a 'relationship', but it has no relevance to love. It would be a sad day when people start equating sex to love.
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As I said sex connects with love, I mean what man wouldn't fall in love with a sexually attractive woman after spending time with her (in some cases spending time is not even necessary), they are connected but just that connected sex is just a part of romantic love, but some times can be the reason for that love.
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I'm sorry, but I don't connect sex to love. First, because it causes problems. Second, because you can have sex with anyone. Being attracted to someone and being in love with someone is two different things. For me, sex is not even in the equation when it comes to love. I don't associate the act of mating for the purposes of procreation to be indicative of romance, but that just may be me.
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Neutral to what?
To soul to something that you just feel is there but have no way to prove it, I can prove the psyche and the brain, I'm open to things that make sense that can be proven or at least have an opening not in spirits and soul mates.
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Let me use an example based on the science and logic we all love so much. In a science project there are experimental groups and control groups. The experimental group is what is being tested and the control group is the neutral group which won't change. I'm saying that your examples were like the experimental groups.
You used examples specifically geared towards a result you wanted, but I'm saying that in proper logic you should use examples that are similar to the control group where it is neutral and not subject to personal bias. I hope that clears it up.
Of course you can prove the psyche and the brain, they are one in the same. I'm not arguing that. I'm arguing that love involves neither the brain/psyche or the heart. If you don't believe in the soul then we will never come to an honest agreement.
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Wait is this another of your hypothesis or are you been serious here, then let me say something else, what if you find out that she isn't you biological mother after all but another woman is and there was some mistake (since you like hypothesis like this one) and she had nothing to do with you after all and then they show you your real mother, what happens then eh?
You see your minds is telling you I have to love because A, because B.
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No it's not a hypothetical, I know my mom very well, but I have a friend that has never met his biological mom and loves her dearly and I can't understand it for the life of me. Hell, I have a cousin and a friend that never met their biological fathers and love them dearly. No one talks about their fathers to them, all they know is that they have a dad they haven't met. It is actually taboo to bring it up in a conversation with our family and my friend's family so we refuse to speak about it. So, even without prior experience or cause they still love these fathers that they have never met.
And your example does not even come close to explaining my my example because in that case you still have contact with said person A, so of course there would be a cause and a reason for B. There is no cause or reason in my examples. They just do. I can't understand it and I certainly can;t explain it, neither can they.
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That is not what love is love is the result, and love always happens on conditions in our sub conscience, we just don't know those particular ones in each case ourselves but they are still there.
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So, you basically consent to not knowing what love is, correct? There are causes for everything undoubtedly, but that doesn't mean the cause defines the term either.
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It is the same thing practically, because again is all in the mind but then again...
What is the difference between falling in love with a celebrity or with a girl in school or at work that you never talked to and she doesn't even know that you exist?
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No difference at all, but by your reasonings this could not be possible, right? Because it all has something to do with the mind. It has something to do with logic. Falling in love with someone you never met, there is no logic in it, right? So, that proves my point that love comes from something other than logic or emotions.
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You consciously don't but then again you do, is your sub conscience telling you to love or not to love when the feeling finally surfaces the reasons are lost in translation.
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One cannot truly know what the subconscious tells us. The point I'm making is that no one can determine who they love or don't love without having already made that choice. Before the words or thoughts appear, the decision has already been made. Even subconscious thought had to be developed from something in that case.
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This is where our paths cross, you choose to believe that there is a soul that love happens over some supernatural invisible thing with no explanation probably because you like the idea and honestly I do too.
But I rather look at the truth and just let my mind fall in love whenever it feels to I will not question it and say to a woman while I hold her hand "you know is our brain telling us to do it" but I will speak of love and romance and feeling what do I care if my mind is telling me to love for whatever A, B, C, sub conscience reason it feels good at the time so I go along with it but I know when and if the need arises that is just an emotional need and nothing else.
Remember you can't prove that you are right as I can't prove that you are wrong indefinitely, because what you say doesn't make sense in logical or scientific terms it doesn't mean that is the case.
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You choose to look at the truth? So, your stance on the matter is the 'truth' even though it cannot be equivocally proven? I mean you said you could not prove me rwrong and I could not prove myself right. I consent to that and therefore I would not say that I have the 'truth'. And yes, I believe in the soul but the main thing I believe is that love comes from neither the heart or mind, but something that ascends both whether it be the soul or something else.
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Noot
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| Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 5:07 pm Post subject: |
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People are tossing around a lot of words that have no real definitions: mind, soul, love... You can't treat these things as real if you're trying to find an answer here. They're just concepts open to interpretation.
Every behavior we have is controlled by our brain. Not our mind. "Mind" does not exist. We have brains. We are conditioned to behave certain ways and reinforced by external factors for continuing those behaviors. There are biological reasons for why people become attracted to one another, and after a while it moves from a biological attachment to a psychological attachment. In other words, you find a comfort zone with a partner where you can feel safe. And that's all love is. It's when two people feel safe with each other and start to need the other person to stay in this euphoria.
| Trevoke wrote: |
| Since love is a hormonal reaction (an 'emotion', like normal people say), I'd say that we love with our hearts. |
But hormones are controlled by our brains. :?
| Futch wrote: |
But we are forgetting about something here...
The booze people! |
Okay, so we're controlled by chemicals in our brain, our conditioned behaviors, and alcohol. I'll give you that one. ;)
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Arenegeth
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| Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 5:47 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, sex is a part of a 'relationship', but it has no relevance to love. It would be a sad day when people start equating sex to love.
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No, sex has something to do with love just trust me on this one but something to do a part a piece.
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I'm sorry, but I don't connect sex to love. First, because it causes problems. Second, because you can have sex with anyone.
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Your bodies can not your minds.
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Of course you can prove the psyche and the brain, they are one in the same. I'm not arguing that. I'm arguing that love involves neither the brain/psyche or the heart. If you don't believe in the soul then we will never come to an honest agreement.
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Why should we come to any agreement that is the nature of arguing, as long as you think about soul then what I say doesn't matter.
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And your example does not even come close to explaining my my example because in that case you still have contact with said person A, so of course there would be a cause and a reason for B. There is no cause or reason in my examples. They just do. I can't understand it and I certainly can;t explain it, neither can they.
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The way you made it sound I thought you, your friend, whoever actually met their biological parent and that they love them without having any experience with them.
If they haven't met them then the only thing they love is the idea which kind of proves my point.
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No difference at all, but by your reasonings this could not be possible, right? Because it all has something to do with the mind. It has something to do with logic. Falling in love with someone you never met, there is no logic in it, right? So, that proves my point that love comes from something other than logic or emotions.
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It doesn't prove anything, since when the mind thinks anything logically.
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One cannot truly know what the subconscious tells us. The point I'm making is that no one can determine who they love or don't love without having already made that choice. Before the words or thoughts appear, the decision has already been made. Even subconscious thought had to be developed from something in that case.
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That choice is made automatically by the brain, not by anything deeper.
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You choose to look at the truth? So, your stance on the matter is the 'truth' even though it cannot be equivocally proven? I mean you said you could not prove me rwrong and I could not prove myself right. I consent to that and therefore I would not say that I have the 'truth'. And yes, I believe in the soul but the main thing I believe is that love comes from neither the heart or mind, but something that ascends both whether it be the soul or something else.
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Scientifically put someone can prove love I can't right now since I lack the knowledge in terms and definitions perhaps someone else can do that.
Of course everything is possible but let's not lose ourselves in that again.
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People are tossing around a lot of words that have no real definitions: mind, soul, love... You can't treat these things as real if you're trying to find an answer here. They're just concepts open to interpretation.
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The mind I was talking about is the psyche the word used is irrelevant, with the rest you say it seems you agree.
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Noot
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| Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 2:25 am Post subject: |
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| Arenegeth wrote: |
| The mind I was talking about is the psyche the word used is irrelevant, with the rest you say it seems you agree. |
I don't know what I agree with because I only read the first two pages of the thread before I posted. I'll go back and read what you had to say then see if we're in agreement or not.
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Urn
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| Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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No, sex has something to do with love just trust me on this one but something to do a part a piece.
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Trust you? I would have no problem doing that, but I've never met you. And ummm, I've never thought about having sex with my dad, but I love him more than anything in this world. I'm guessing that you're going to say that is not the love you are talking about, but I'll cut you off first by asking a question how can there be more than one love?
I never told any of my family members I love them one way and a girlfriend I loved them another way. It's just love. Nothing about sex. When I think about sex it is either for recreational purposes (sorry, but I'm being honest..always play safe children) and for the purposes of procreation. Not for love.
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Your bodies can not your minds.
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Sex is a physical action. Your mind relays thoughts to your body in which the body translates those thoughts into action. So, I'd say that when you have sex your mind is just as involved as the body. Although, some people don't know how to have sex and that can seem mindless, but that's a whole different discussion. ;-)
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Why should we come to any agreement that is the nature of arguing, as long as you think about soul then what I say doesn't matter.
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Did I ever mention the words 'let's come to an agreement'? I just said we won't come to an agreement on that issue meaning there was no further need to discuss the soul.
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The way you made it sound I thought you, your friend, whoever actually met their biological parent and that they love them without having any experience with them.
If they haven't met them then the only thing they love is the idea which kind of proves my point.
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Being idea means having some prior knowledge to base those notions on. They never knew their mother and father (recall that one of my friends never met their mother and recall that my cousin and best friend never met their father), we never discussed mother and father issues with them (it was taboo), and they never interacted with a father or mother in any way, shape or form. So, how could they have any idea of how to develop love for something that they never knew or had prior understanding about?
There love for that mother and father whom they never met and will never know (most likely) is purely baseless and groundless. THEY don't even know why they love them. They just do. No mind or ideas, just pure nonsensical love. Now whether I believe that is really love is another story, but they believe it is so who am I to tell them differently?
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It doesn't prove anything, since when the mind thinks anything logically.
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Ah, so we come to the heart of the matter, pardon the play on words. So, you are saying the mind is illogical or thinks illogically. Yet, you believe that love is associated with the thoughts produced in the mind, correct? I thought logic was the proof of existence. So, if love is associated with the thoughts of the mind, which are illogical, then are you saying love does not exist? Illogical is the absence of logic, and you say since when does the mind think anything logically. Thus, if you consent that love is the product of the mind, and the mind thinks illogicaly, then it must not exist. But, you seem to believe that it does exist therefore it must exist and therefore must not have anything to do with the mind.
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That choice is made automatically by the brain, not by anything deeper.
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Ah, I see. So, there is no rationalization process or anything. It just automatically gets in the brain somehow. Well, where does the brain get it? There must be some reason why its there. Or are you saying it is innate to our very being? Are you suggesting that we are somehow born with love? I don't want to assume anything so I'll let you respond to that first, but I'll just say that if it is automatically there and we are somehow born with it, then some outside force is at work because we are certainly not born with ability to ascertain logic, but we all are capable of love.
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Scientifically put someone can prove love I can't right now since I lack the knowledge in terms and definitions perhaps someone else can do that.
Of course everything is possible but let's not lose ourselves in that again.
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I never lose myself. I have very good GPS. But, I'm not trying to prove love. I'm just trying to show that it involves more than the heart and mind.
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kuwaizair
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| Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Urn"]
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I'm sorry, but I don't connect sex to love. First, because it causes problems. Second, because you can have sex with anyone. Being attracted to someone and being in love with someone is two different things. For me, sex is not even in the equation when it comes to love. I don't associate the act of mating for the purposes of procreation to be indicative of romance, but that just may be me.
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I could try, maybe if i fond somone so attracitive I'd expolode, but I couldn't have sex with soone I didn't have feelings for. I'm just a sap and I'm hinderd by a culture that says "noo u must wuv somone to boink them then u are e-z"
how sad? I guess then I'll know whom i like and don't. Some animals mate for life, more don't though, maybe they love eachother? who knows...humans are suppose to be one of these creatures. I just wonder if I'd be bord with somone over time, then require a new guy.
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Arenegeth
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| Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2005 2:13 am Post subject: |
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Trust you? I would have no problem doing that, but I've never met you. And ummm, I've never thought about having sex with my dad, but I love him more than anything in this world. I'm guessing that you're going to say that is not the love you are talking about, but I'll cut you off first by asking a question how can there be more than one love?
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It can and there is and I was talking about romantic love, there are indeed many kinds of love and trust me was an expression, sex is part of romantic love as maternal instinct is part of a mother loving a child.
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I never told any of my family members I love them one way and a girlfriend I loved them another way. It's just love. Nothing about sex. When I think about sex it is either for recreational purposes (sorry, but I'm being honest..always play safe children) and for the purposes of procreation. Not for love.
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I, and I'm sure other people have, I'm not talking about sex here but different ways of love, I mean I "love" Suikoden II and I "love" my pets in a completely different way but both ways are love (the quotation marks are there for a reason that will become apparent later).
In the same way sex has to do with romantic love, of course from your soul "dreamy" point of you doesn't but from mine it does.
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Sex is a physical action. Your mind relays thoughts to your body in which the body translates those thoughts into action. So, I'd say that when you have sex your mind is just as involved as the body. Although, some people don't know how to have sex and that can seem mindless, but that's a whole different discussion.
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When you have sex with a prostitute for instance you have sex with a willing body and an unwilling mind, the same goes for rape (only the body is unwilling too), you see not everyone can have "sex" everyone can have body friction there's a difference.
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Did I ever mention the words 'let's come to an agreement'? I just said we won't come to an agreement on that issue meaning there was no further need to discuss the soul.
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I believe in a body you believe in a soul something deeper whatever, from the time that you do and since there is no chance that you will change mind here and now and neither am I, that means that we stand on complete opposite ends, the only mutual ground we can find is to agree to disagree.
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Being idea means having some prior knowledge to base those notions on. They never knew their mother and father (recall that one of my friends never met their mother and recall that my cousin and best friend never met their father), we never discussed mother and father issues with them (it was taboo), and they never interacted with a father or mother in any way, shape or form. So, how could they have any idea of how to develop love for something that they never knew or had prior understanding about?
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Because they feel attached too, you see they are their biological parents if they didn't know that they existed they wouldn't love them one bit since their foster parents would appear the real ones to their minds.
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There love for that mother and father whom they never met and will never know (most likely) is purely baseless and groundless. THEY don't even know why they love them. They just do. No mind or ideas, just pure nonsensical love. Now whether I believe that is really love is another story, but they believe it is so who am I to tell them differently?
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You don't say differently they may actually have those feelings you think that is attributed to soul-mates and things that logic does not explain and simply are there for the people emotional need and I believe in a convinced mind, if they are deluding themselves with a fake notion of love I can't tell neither does it matter because to their eyes at least at the time that is real.
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Ah, so we come to the heart of the matter, pardon the play on words. So, you are saying the mind is illogical or thinks illogically.
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The mind thinks illogically not the brain (the brain doesn't think at all since is just a cockpit), in other words the psyche, is it logical to for example buy a game you really like today for $200 while you could get it tomorrow for $30?
Yes you will if the desire is there you will despite what logic tells you, when some one kills his wife when she cheated on him is it based on logic?
Is based on pure emotion.
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Yet, you believe that love is associated with the thoughts produced in the mind, correct? I thought logic was the proof of existence. So, if love is associated with the thoughts of the mind, which are illogical, then are you saying love does not exist? Illogical is the absence of logic, and you say since when does the mind think anything logically. Thus, if you consent that love is the product of the mind, and the mind thinks illogicaly, then it must not exist. But, you seem to believe that it does exist therefore it must exist and therefore must not have anything to do with the mind.
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That is what got us nowhere in the other thread here you assume and go on with a meaning I'm supposedly making so let me clarify.
The proof of existence is not logic the proof of existence is existence it self, logic is the "wave" sort of speak that bring intelligent species deciding from their environments knowledge and projection what is right and what is wrong, like when you see a solid object you know that is solid and so on.
Logic is not something permanent supposedly the human mind may conceive another concept at some point to greatly comprehend things.
But more to the matter at hand, the mind in this case doesn't think logically based on selfish needs and assumptions, in the same way as a racists hates someone from another race that is not logical, to feel resentment towards another creature purely on the reason that it looks different, so with you're assumption of what I said logic never existed in the first place and all this long everyone is illogical, so if I get of my a** now I should bump into things since I can't think logically to understand they are solid.
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Ah, I see. So, there is no rationalization process or anything. It just automatically gets in the brain somehow. Well, where does the brain get it? There must be some reason why its there. Or are you saying it is innate to our very being? Are you suggesting that we are somehow born with love?
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We are not born with love we are born with feelings like any other advanced life forms on this planet, as we grow up and that happens in the first three years of our age (with animals is basically inherent) we assume the first notions of logic right and wrong, good or bad, you see when we are at that age and hit ourselves on a wall and feel pain we know that if we do that again we will feel pain again instinctively, we can also recognize our parents love or hate depending at that age.
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There must be some reason why its there. Or are you saying it is innate to our very being? Are you suggesting that we are somehow born with love? I don't want to assume anything so I'll let you respond to that first, but I'll just say that if it is automatically there and we are somehow born with it, then some outside force is at work because we are certainly not born with ability to ascertain logic, but we all are capable of love.
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Good thing you didn't assume this time, no its not that simple is a matter of the qualities and criteria of our brains for the concept of love, that is created from our experiences, I have observed kittens from the moment of their birth several times and as soon as they open their eyes and before that they love their mother and in some cases even me a human who just treats them good and feeds them or whatever.
Not everyone is capable of love, like me now for an emotional shielding reason, even if my criteria for love of whatever kind is met I will not recognize is until I put my shield down.
And how can it be possible to love when you are already in love, I heard numerous people who where supposedly in love with their wife's and they left them and made an affair with another woman, what is the true love?
People claim they love all the time but when do they really feel love only their subconscious knows.
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I never lose myself. I have very good GPS. But, I'm not trying to prove love. I'm just trying to show that it involves more than the heart and mind.
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I'm afraid you do not all areas get good signal you know, but beyond any unnecessary personal references let me say that exactly that is your point something deeper that seemingly doesn't exist for me since I can find rationalization to love in other practical things I can actually feel.
Thinking that love is something deeper is based on personal conviction that there is and that is again based on either emotional need to justify a felling with something that isn't so sterile but more surreal.
You can't prove that love is based on something else at least not to me and not based on what you presented so far, as you know that doesn't mean that is the case it just means that it seemingly isn't for me and in this case apparently for a lot of people.
Just remember what love really is and that love is not alone.
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zeal
The Zealots
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| Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 4:11 pm Post subject: |
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I haven't read anyone of what people have said so i will not comment on anything. I just want to put an interesting conversation i had. From what i hear this is the topic for it.
this girl is trying to tell that sex is love....i've changed her screenname to girl *she said it was fine as long as she didn't get angery IMs:
girl: you cant have sex with a man
DFFme: you're very closed minded but that's okay
DFFme: yes you can
girl: i cant with a women
girl: love is like sex
girl: when u lvoe someone that much to marry them u would want to have sex right?
DFFme: sex is just physical
DFFme: love is emotional
girl: now ur being shallow
girl: ok so your saying sex is just physica meaning love has nothing to do with it WRONG
DFFme: NO no
DFFme: i said sex is physical
DFFme: right isn't sex a physical thing
DFFme: love is an emotion right love is an emotion that's all i said
girl: BUT LOVE IS IN SEX
DFFme: you don't have to love someone to have sex with them
DFFme: just like you don't ahve to have sex with someone to love them
girl: but USUALLY LOVE IS INVOLVED LIKE WHEN U HAVE A GIRLFRIEND AND U LOVE HER..THEN THE TIMES COMES WHERE YOUR LOVE COMES OUT IN A WAY SUCH AS MAKIGN LOVE
girl: SEX
there is more but that was about the bulk
but yeah can someone tell me if i'm wrong about this? or if she is right?
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Arenegeth
Joined: 23 May 2005
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| Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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I don't want to sound like an a** (more than usual) but you should have put that in a quote second time around (it is debatable whether you should have done that first time around since half things said are not yours, but anyway), and no doing it now doesn't make any difference the reason is supposed to be the gaining of Potch from identical posting and in the conversation nothing at all was added.
But don't worry about it is not like you gained millions.
Anyway that is what I said in the Bush thread below; before I add anything else I would like to hear what other people have to say.
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But anyway regardless, that girl is wrong remind her of rape or prostitution and other things relating to harsh reality, unless she's a minor, in that case don't say a thing let her dream for a while her parents should have educated her better is not up to you to do so, so if someone offers her "love" and she offers him something else is not your or my fault is the damn conservative society probably.
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And yes I think you are right.
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Zero
Blood Knights
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| Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 11:38 pm Post subject: |
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| I don't see what attraction has to do with love personally. Being attracted to a person has something to do with sex, but nothing to do with love. So, proving part of the attraction served no purpose at all to me and really didn't further our knowledge of where love comes from in my opinion. |
Attraction is just about 80% of relationship's in general. I'm talking physical attraction by the way, just so my point isn't turned into something it's not. Let's face it people, everyone is shallow to a certaint degree, you can lie to yourselves all you want. People are more likely to get into a relationship with someone they're physically attracted to, than with someone they think is cool but not all that beautiful.
Let me also add before this is taken out of context, that it is entirely possible to fall in love with someone who you may not think is attractive at FIRST. However, you have to become attracted to them at some point wether it be metally or physically before the relationship can actually work. Most go physical to mental, which is why long marrages are so rare actually. Not many are able to fall in love with another's mind when the reason they eloped was more physical than anything. Need proof? Let's take a trip to look at divource rates:
(And by lets I mean you, because I'm not going to quote any information given on the internet concerning divource rates because it differs far too much...needless to say, they're high.)
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| Whether or not tha is true or false, I cannot say, but falling in love with a celebrity cannot be seen as true love. I'd say that it is an illusion of love. I can't consent to that being love. |
This one buy's it though, I have never endured something so controdictory before in my life.
So lets say you meet someone in person, just your average Joe. You connect on a physical and mental level, and after a while you fall in love. Right?
Because you didn't clarify exactly what you meant I'm going to run with it.
Now you meet someone who is a celeberty, and WOW you connect physically and mentally and eventually fall in love. Now, is this not love because it's televised a lot? Or did you really mean that falling 'in love' with someone you've never met before is impossible?
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| Just remember what love really is and that love is not alone. |
Should I point out that there are a good deal of other examples floating around this forum? You can't really deem what love is or isn't, because quite simply it's what you make of it. Just like life, as that's the most obvious example right now. You can love life, or you can hate it. You can feel awesome being in love, or no different at all. No two minds are exactly alike, remember that.
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| Trust you? I would have no problem doing that, but I've never met you. And ummm, I've never thought about having sex with my dad, but I love him more than anything in this world. I'm guessing that you're going to say that is not the love you are talking about, but I'll cut you off first by asking a question how can there be more than one love? |
I'm going to go on a complete tangent here and say that when you're a developing baby, around the age of two actually, the parent you're closest to you become attracted to. Hence why an infant is more protective of one of their parents. Just a fun fact I figured I'd throw out there.
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| Not everyone is capable of love, like me now for an emotional shielding reason, even if my criteria for love of whatever kind is met I will not recognize is until I put my shield down. |
When you get hit with a big enough photon torpedo you're not going to know how to spell shield anymore. Then again, people rush far to quickly into relationships where they create love out of something it's not. We call this, young women. By young I'm going to say somewhere around 16-18. Usually they're lacking the life expieriance to actually stand on their own two feet so they cling to another, stronger person. This is just a generalization, before anyone flies of the hinge.
Everyone needs a chance to develop past the prepubecent stage of their life and gain enough life expieriance so that they can ACCURATLY define what exactly their love criteria is. But then again, love isn't exactly something you can define, so in saying that you're going to list a criteria, you're disallowing yourself opportunities to find someone you can really fall in love with.
PWNED!!!
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Arenegeth
Joined: 23 May 2005
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| Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 1:51 am Post subject: |
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Should I point out that there are a good deal of other examples floating around this forum? You can't really deem what love is or isn't, because quite simply it's what you make of it. Just like life, as that's the most obvious example right now. You can love life, or you can hate it. You can feel awesome being in love, or no different at all. No two minds are exactly alike, remember that.
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You probably missed my point with that, fear and hate are the same with love only to a different level, sometimes we don't know why we "hate" something or "fear" something, I said that love is not alone to remind you that there are more emotions out there and they can be as deep and obsolete.
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When you get hit with a big enough photon torpedo you're not going to know how to spell shield anymore.
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That may have been true for someone else but I believe I'm self-disciplined enough now to withstand anything or die from it, you see since I think that everything is in the mind all I have to do is convince the damn thing that I'm not in love, what difference does it make if I am, unless repeated close contact with the person at hand takes place and even then I would thought of ways to minimize it.
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Urn
Azure Flames
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| Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 2:49 am Post subject: |
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It can and there is and I was talking about romantic love, there are indeed many kinds of love and trust me was an expression, sex is part of romantic love as maternal instinct is part of a mother loving a child.
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We are talking about what love comes from. Love is love. You can say you love Suikoden, but what does that mean? It's all the same. You have an immense affection for it and you value it as a part of your life. That's no different from the love you have with a family member. You can put all sorts of cute titles on it, but it's all the same.
Again, sex is a physical act that anyone can do. Love has nothing to do with it. People have sex with dogs, trees, pies, and any number of things you can think of. Sex has no relation to who we love at all and surely has no defining factor when discussing it.
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I, and I'm sure other people have, I'm not talking about sex here but different ways of love, I mean I "love" Suikoden II and I "love" my pets in a completely different way but both ways are love (the quotation marks are there for a reason that will become apparent later).
In the same way sex has to do with romantic love, of course from your soul "dreamy" point of you doesn't but from mine it does.
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Those are just titles trying to classify a feeling. It has nothing to do with defining love. You can issue titles to anything and try to explain it, but it still has little relevance. Love is love. I already explained this in my first response. And sex has nothing to do with romance. Romance is particular way of behaving based on emotions. Sex is a physical action in order to procreate. Now making love is a different story. That has nothing to do with soul or 'dreamy' anything.
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When you have sex with a prostitute for instance you have sex with a willing body and an unwilling mind, the same goes for rape (only the body is unwilling too), you see not everyone can have "sex" everyone can have body friction there's a difference.
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Rape is forceful entry. That is involving an unwilling partner in which one person only has the goal of sex. This is not relevant to the discussion. Prostitutes willingly give their bodies for money due to mental choices. They want money and sell their bodies to get it. Sounds like a mental choice to me. And yes, everyone can have 'sex'. Sex is a physical act be it forced or wanted. Therefore anyone can do it.
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I believe in a body you believe in a soul something deeper whatever, from the time that you do and since there is no chance that you will change mind here and now and neither am I, that means that we stand on complete opposite ends, the only mutual ground we can find is to agree to disagree
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Then why keep brining it up when I said I was through discussing this??
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Because they feel attached too, you see they are their biological parents if they didn't know that they existed they wouldn't love them one bit since their foster parents would appear the real ones to their minds.
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How do you presume to know what they feel when they themselves say they don't know why? And who said they even had foster parents? One has a father and one has a mother and one is missing the father and one is missing the mother. There is no attachment to the parent they have never met.
It's taboo to speak about them, remember? They only know they had a biological parent but no one speaks of them. They are perfectly find with the one parent that raised them. You shouldn't presume to know what they are feeling. I've known them all my life and I'd think I know them a little better than you. Plus, they say they have no reason to love them, but they just do, and I'll take their word for it.
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You don't say differently they may actually have those feelings you think that is attributed to soul-mates and things that logic does not explain and simply are there for the people emotional need and I believe in a convinced mind, if they are deluding themselves with a fake notion of love I can't tell neither does it matter because to their eyes at least at the time that is real.
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I didn't say what I thought about that subject. I said they love these biological parents they have never met for no reason at all. It had nothing to do with soul-mates and it certainly is not logical. So, you are assuming it is there for their emotional needs, when they clearly say they love them for no reason at all and are perfectly satisfied with the life they have now? Umm, yeah, I'm just going to take their word for it as they should know better than any of us. And yes, as long as it is real to them that's all that matters.
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The mind thinks illogically not the brain (the brain doesn't think at all since is just a cockpit), in other words the psyche, is it logical to for example buy a game you really like today for $200 while you could get it tomorrow for $30?
Yes you will if the desire is there you will despite what logic tells you, when some one kills his wife when she cheated on him is it based on logic?
Is based on pure emotion.
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The brain is the organ from which emotions derive. If you are relating emotions to the mind, then you would have to be talking about the brain from which those very emotions come from. So, if the emotions are of an illogical mind, then the brain must be illogical, as well since it is the source of those illogical emotions of the mind which you try to separate from the brain. So, if the brain is logical then there can be no illogical emotions and hence no illogical mind.
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That is what got us nowhere in the other thread here you assume and go on with a meaning I'm supposedly making so let me clarify.
The proof of existence is not logic the proof of existence is existence it self, logic is the "wave" sort of speak that bring intelligent species deciding from their environments knowledge and projection what is right and what is wrong, like when you see a solid object you know that is solid and so on.
Logic is not something permanent supposedly the human mind may conceive another concept at some point to greatly comprehend things.
But more to the matter at hand, the mind in this case doesn't think logically based on selfish needs and assumptions, in the same way as a racists hates someone from another race that is not logical, to feel resentment towards another creature purely on the reason that it looks different, so with you're assumption of what I said logic never existed in the first place and all this long everyone is illogical, so if I get of my a** now I should bump into things since I can't think logically to understand they are solid.
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I don't assume anything. I believe there was a question mark there. So, we define existence by existence? I believe there is a rule that no one thing can be defined unto itself. And we are calling logic a "wave"? Again, I make no assumptions about logic never existing. I have not even brought that topic into this discussion, but logic is born out of humanity. Humans create logic as a method to describe what is known.
So, if you had not learned that things are solid, then how would you know if you bumped into a solid object? There would be no possibility for that because solid is not known to you. Another person with the logic of solid would have to teach it to you based on their individual experiences. Alas, that has no reference to love at all and I address your logic statement int he reply I made before this one.
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Good thing you didn't assume this time, no its not that simple is a matter of the qualities and criteria of our brains for the concept of love, that is created from our experiences, I have observed kittens from the moment of their birth several times and as soon as they open their eyes and before that they love their mother and in some cases even me a human who just treats them good and feeds them or whatever.
Not everyone is capable of love, like me now for an emotional shielding reason, even if my criteria for love of whatever kind is met I will not recognize is until I put my shield down.
And how can it be possible to love when you are already in love, I heard numerous people who where supposedly in love with their wife's and they left them and made an affair with another woman, what is the true love?
People claim they love all the time but when do they really feel love only their subconscious knows.
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What are you talking about? Who assumed anything? I asked three questions. Count them and nothing had to do with me assuming anything. Do you need a definition for what an assumption is? Now, that statement you made about kittens was an assumption. You assume what that kitten displayed was love.
But, you cannot know for certain that they love their parents or you for the matter. They are doing what is instinctive to their survival. They cuddle under their mother for warmth. They go to you or her for food. Nothing about love is defined there. That is sustaining its survival. And your next couple of statements just reaffirms what I have been saying all along.
People can believe they are in love, but it doesn't mean they are. Marrying someone is not a justification for love. There are plenty other reasons for marrying a person. The statements you made just show that love has nothing to do with the heart or the mind. And that's all that I'm saying.
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I'm afraid you do not all areas get good signal you know, but beyond any unnecessary personal references let me say that exactly that is your point something deeper that seemingly doesn't exist for me since I can find rationalization to love in other practical things I can actually feel.
Thinking that love is something deeper is based on personal conviction that there is and that is again based on either emotional need to justify a felling with something that isn't so sterile but more surreal.
You can't prove that love is based on something else at least not to me and not based on what you presented so far, as you know that doesn't mean that is the case it just means that it seemingly isn't for me and in this case apparently for a lot of people.
Just remember what love really is and that love is not alone.
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Coming from you that statement about me has about as little value to me than a penny with a hole in it, but we are all entitled to our opinions. And I could care less what it is that love comes from or whether it exist for me or for you, as long as it is beyond the heart and the mind. It seems like you are missing that point. Whatever you say otherwise has no value to me.
Thinking that love is deeper is based on personal experience, not conviction. Be sure to distinguish the two. I already said more than once I could care less if there was a soul. I do believe in one, but I already said that was irrelevant to my stance on this topic.
I could care less if the soul has relevance to love, just as long as love deals with more than the heart and the mind. My emotional needs are irrelevant. Until you can convince me that love is based on either the heart or the mind don't worry about my personal convictions because I'm not considering yours. As they are irrelevant.
And if you are talking proof, then prove me wrong. Apparently I could care less about your stance or anyone else's stance on the topic. Your opinions on the matter are irrelevant as are mine without proof. You cannot prove me wrong and bringing in what other people feel just makes it worst because I could really care less about feelings or opinions. Give me facts that say that love is based on the heart or the brain. I already said they deal with neither. I will keep this opinion unril proven wrong. Until then my position on the subject stands.
"Just remember what love really is and that love is not alone." What does that mean? I've been asking for 3 posts for what love is and no one has been able to tell me. So, someone tell me what love 'really' is. And this not being alone, what are you talking about? Please clarify. You can attribute many qualities to love, but nothing defines love. So, someone please tell me, what is love. It seems to be very alone to me. People have tried to describe it, failing miserably. All you all give is qualities attributed with love. Nothing defines it.
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Attraction is just about 80% of relationship's in general. I'm talking physical attraction by the way, just so my point isn't turned into something it's not. Let's face it people, everyone is shallow to a certaint degree, you can lie to yourselves all you want. People are more likely to get into a relationship with someone they're physically attracted to, than with someone they think is cool but not all that beautiful.
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Again with this statement about attraction. This has absolutely nothing to do with love. Attraction is a quality, an attribute, of an object. It is irrelevant to love. Attraction is based on animal instinct and based on a fascade. It is more liken to animals being in heat than anything else.
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However, you have to become attracted to them at some point wether it be metally or physically before the relationship can actually work. Most go physical to mental, which is why long marrages are so rare actually.
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Attraction may be a means for entering a relationship, but what does it have to do with love. Yes, you like the appearance of the other individual, so what? You like what they have to say, so what? Great, you can share conversation with this person, but what does it have to do with love? There's plenty of people who are attractive to another person, they have great conversations together, and never fall in love. How can this be explained? I mean, that's what's necessary for love, right? And this equating love with marriage is really obscure to me. There are many other reasons to marry besides love...many.
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This one buy's it though, I have never endured something so controdictory before in my life.
So lets say you meet someone in person, just your average Joe. You connect on a physical and mental level, and after a while you fall in love. Right?
Because you didn't clarify exactly what you meant I'm going to run with it.
Now you meet someone who is a celeberty, and WOW you connect physically and mentally and eventually fall in love. Now, is this not love because it's televised a lot? Or did you really mean that falling 'in love' with someone you've never met before is impossible?
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I won't justify the first part of this quote, because you obviously didn't read the other posts I made because nothing about physical and mental connections necessarily result in love for me. I've stated that a number of times. And if you had read it you would have read where I clarify on the whole celebrity question, which had been elaborated on and discussed already. And you obviously didn't read where I explained my stance on the fact that people can fall in love without meeting. I actually say this in my first post on this topic.
I also exclude the meeting possibilities in my examples on the celebrity infatuation. I was discussing the idea that people fall in love with people they just see on tv, no mentioning of meetings. That particular scenario I (note the 'I' in this sentence) just wouldn't call 'true' love. And I can't consent to that being love. If they meet then there is a possibility for love. I don't see a contradiction anywhere.
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I'm going to go on a complete tangent here and say that when you're a developing baby, around the age of two actually, the parent you're closest to you become attracted to. Hence why an infant is more protective of one of their parents. Just a fun fact I figured I'd throw out there.
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This has nothing to do with love or attraction. It deals with comfort and security. You get closer to the parent you have been used to being with and are therefore more comfortable with in order to maintain your own security and protection. It is self-preservation based on trust. Love or attraction is not even relevant here.
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