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G.T.A Content Issue
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Futch

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 12:02 am    Post subject: G.T.A Content Issue Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Well, in this topic we aren't going to discuss "how grt iz to ply gta san andreas" my friends, we are going to discuss this:

http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/07/14/news_6129040.html

I personally don't know what to think anymore, It's pretty much obvious what Rockstar intended to do with this thing, and its way too stupid in my opinion.

It seems that nowadays in order to sell a videogame (or anything for that matter) you must introduce some "outrageous" scenes, or more blood, in any case defying the Status quo or making a mess is the only way to sell a copy of something!
The recent topic about the boys who hanged themselves got me thinking, and Im actually reconsidering my values about morality. It seems that not only people but also the industry is getting dumber and more violent as each day that goes by.

The scene of the game is basically sex between the main character of the game and a woman in it, pretty stupid in my opinion. I would post the url here but I don't want to get in trouble.

I really don't know much about the way the U.S.A law regarding videogames is regulated, but as far as im concern a determinate letter in the game cover means that the game is not suitable for some ages.
If let's say a minor tries to buy a game rated "M" (mature) he (theoreticaly) couldn't do it and if the salesman gives it to him its big trouble for the guy.

My question is if this kind of regulation truly works, because I never got any feedback from players, only from the media (not very trustworthy media)

In any case, what do you think about this new federal law? Will it work? Is rockstar guilty, or the parents also share responsability?

Thanks to everyone in advance.
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Raze

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 12:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Where I'm from (Michigan), minors are not allowed to purchase or rent mature rated videogames. When I was working at Toys-R-Us (a hellish cesspool of retail), It was impossible for us to sell 'M' rated games to minors, even if the parent was standing right there. We had to go through the tedious process of telling the parent that it was a mature title, and if that was alright, and then we had to take the money from the adult. period. if we didn't, we'd lose our job, no ifs ands or buts about it. It's much like tobacco/liquor in it's handling.

In my opinion, which is rather logical, I might add, the problem with videogames is NOT the fact that they have violence or nudity in it and it is NOT the fact that thier ratings may be too small to catch the parent's eye. (believe me, I've seen this happen) The real problem is that the parents of today have poor judgement and lack parenting skills of ANY KIND. Some of them never planned on being parents in the first place, and see thier childeren as a hindrance rather than a blessing. As such, they will set them down in front of the television or game console, buy them a game, and leave them alone while they go upstairs and get wasted or go whore themselves around looking for a "good time". Then they want you to feel sorry for them when their child goes into school with a semi-auto and blows away 5-10 of their classmates, and they feel the need for a scapegoat. "Oh, it must have been that violent videogame that they always play!" NOT their bad parenting, and so the media jump on the backs of videogame makers, and continue to spew forth their propaganda and fear tactics against videogames, declaring them as corrupting and the cause of teen violence. I have done research on this for a term paper, and I have seen NOT ONE PIECE OF EVIDENCE that directly links violent videogames to violence. "Studies have shown" my pooper...

My parents did a wonderful job in raising me, because when they first saw my first "graphically violent videogame" that I was playing (probably Doom, or perhaps it was GTA2, i forget), they pulled me aside and told me that the game was just that: a game, and that I would be severly punished by them and the law if I ever attempted to recreate anything from a game, as it was just fantasy. I told them that I understood the difference between reality and fantasy, and they trusted me and continued to let me play the game.

Bottom line: Parenting is the issue that should be on the line here, not the content of the games.

Edited by UberYuber: When your point can be expressed without cussing, it's probably best to do it that way.
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Hugo

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 2:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

You seem to have some issues, Raze, which I'd rather not go into, but some of it is true enough, though you might want to edit it just a tiny bit to still put your message across. Hey, You're in the Scarlet Moon Empire too. We should talk.

About those ratings, they really should be more specific ie. T and M. I don't think people pay it much mind. Now if American games are rated like videos are rated then people would be alot more wary.

You know it's the same type of people that tried to get wrestling banned. I might agree that it does promote violence as back when wrestling was a fad or craze you couldn't walk down the street without someone getting you in a headlock, practically, but that was seeing as playing and it takes a really violent person to be violent. You can't blame a game for who they already are or the way they were raised and grew up.

The bottom line is, games are meant to be fun. The swearing and violence and mild sexual scenes are entertainment for people and if it didn't have that then the game wouldn't be as succesful. Sometimes censorship is a good thing as far as age is the concern, but I defy any censor who imposes a ban for a whole nation of adults.
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Sierra Mikain

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 8:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Raze wrote:

Bottom line: Parenting is the issue that should be on the line here, not the content of the games.


For the most part I agree with that. Well my question is... who would want to see that rather stupid scene anyways, besides someone that is underage? I think that's the question that no one is asking.

Maybe I'm an idiot here, but the graphic quality of a game like Leisure Suit Larry or Grand Theft Auto doesn't seem like enough to satisfy the average person who's old enough to buy the freaking game in the first place. If you're not underage, then you most likely don't want the pixilated porn of some thug and his chick. Correct me if I'm wrong here.

If Rockstar coded content that was beyond the original rating of the game then that is some pretty shady activity there. Basically this is just like having a special deleted scene easter egg on your R rated DVD that is pornographic. I don't see a problem with violent video games for most people, because I agree, for the most part, that proper parenting supercedes any observations of violence kids see. Having content like this, however, could be another issue entirely. I know more than a few people don't want their kids to see these extra scenes and they can't be around to watch them play all the time to make sure this kinda crap doesn't happen in games that are not rated for such content.

Raze wrote:

I have seen NOT ONE PIECE OF EVIDENCE that directly links violent videogames to violence.


Honestly, I'm not sure whether to believe that violence in video games is directly related to violence IRL, however, your argument is better without that sentence. I haven't personally seen any evidence that mass muders in Germany or Iraq really happened either, but that doesn't mean I should believe that it isn't possible. Drastic analogy yes, but what I'm saying is that lack of proof is not evidence.

People shouldn't wait for proof before they open their mind to possibility. I've read that studies do show there is a link between exposure to violence and violence. So would it be impossible for the link to exist simply because the player of the video game is more removed? Nah.

All I know is that I've always played violent video games and have often done stupid things just for the violent effect and I've never turned to throwing claymores in the street of Ann Arbor. I also know that there are a lot of 5 year olds playing games like GTA that really shouldn't be. The way it affects them could be totally different since when I was five I was doing things in games like swinging on vines over alligators or shooting ufos that have a speed controlled by the number of their ships. Now kids are digging out human organs with spoons and dealing out head shots with armor piercing bullets.

I don't have a problem with any law that wants to fine people that sell games to people who are under the age rating of the game. It's impossible to put all of the blame in one place, if we all take a little more responsibility for the actions of our children, maybe they wouldn't be so bad. Sure the parenting skills need to increase, but enacting a law such to assist them with content that they might not be able to control is only (possibly) helping and not really hurting.

Let's all focus on the real agenda of Mrs. Clinton, and that is just for her to get her name out as a politician who is pro-family to further her political career.
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Keriaku

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Personally, I find it horrible that so many people 12 and under are playing GTA. Now that there's this code, all the kids are gonna be using it, there's nothing they can do changing the rating now, it'll only stop more people from buying it.

On the issue of video games making people violent, I don't think the game actually makes them violent, it just desensitizes you, and you don't mind blodd or swearing as much. I read something that in video games, if you see something, your brain can't tell it's not real and it stimulats the same part of yuor brain as if yuo were really seeing it. So when you kill some guys and blood splatters all over the screen, your brain thinks it's actually happening because it can't tell the difference. It just means if you really do see someone die or sometihng, you won't be as affected. It takes an already unstable person to go out and do something violent because they saw it in a video game.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

This has gone overboard at this stage, it's actually quite simple.

If the code was in the original game and even if it could not be accessed by any means, the game should have been rated AO. That's how it works.

If the code is an add-on created in full by another person with way too much time on their hands, then it should be rated M. After all, otherwise most games would have to be AO because it's not that hard to get nude codes for practically everything.

People whine that it's the parents fault but the fact is that games are supposed to be sold the same way movies are. If you're not old enough you don't get the game, that's how it's supposed to work.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Anybody remember God of War? Nothing hidden about the sex minigame in God of War. Nobody raised a fuss about that though did they?

Look, Grand Theft Auto is primarily about two things: Murder and robbery. At any point in the game you can pick up a gun and murder someone. At any turn you can press a button and steal a car. No problem. Now people are pissed off because you have the option of tapping into hidden source code to access a sex game? Sex is what people do. It's where babies come from. Chances are most of you are going to have sex some day. I know I am :P. Chances are though, none of you are going to hit the streets and start killing people. Watching CJ getting his mack on is not going to make me want to go out into the streets and start consumating. I already want to do that. But when I play GTA, I think it'd be a bit of a giggle to steal a car. I'm not going to, of course, but I think that's where the real "problem" with the game is.

I know we don't want to run around showing porno to our kids or whatever, but it seems to me that people are kind of getting things in the wrong order. "We found hidden porno in this game that is explicitly about gang-banging, murder, theft, extortion, gambling, arson, drug dealing, blackmailing, and violence! I don't want our kids exposed to hidden porno!" Honestly. The real problem is right under your nose. You didn't have to look at the hidden source code to find something objectional about San Andreas.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 12:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Is just a damn mini game, the real problem is not Rockstar hiding it but the sorry to say so stupid parents that see the mature tag or 18 tag in Europe and say "is just a toy", is it?

Then don't complain if you catch your kid (in-game) having it with a prostitute under a bridge and then beaten her to death with a di*** to take the money back, it was just a toy after all wasn't it?

Quote:

Maybe I'm an idiot here, but the graphic quality of a game like Leisure Suit Larry or Grand Theft Auto doesn't seem like enough to satisfy the average person who's old enough to buy the freaking game in the first place. If you're not underage, then you most likely don't want the pixilated porn of some thug and his chick. Correct me if I'm wrong here.


Ubi.. eh I mean UberYuber, is not a sex scene but a fun harmless minigame that shows no actual gentiles, and as GameSpot put it:

Quote:

"Given that the minigame is about as raunchy as an episode of Sex and the City, cannot be accessed without entering a long string of cheat codes, and takes several hours of effort to access, charges that San Andreas is "pornographic" may seem extreme to some."


Referring to the PS2 version, the PC version is a MOD and a different deal.

Now I agree with Raze, here, you see I have been playing bloody and Mature games since I was a wee lad, my parents bought me those games because they though they were games and nothing else, now last time I checked I don't have a criminal record, and I haven't killed anyone and they haven't caught me yet, and I was subject to those images and actions form an early age along with horror movies.

The point is that if you have some already present mental instability and you can't tell reality from fiction then chances are your going to get up from your chair at one point and start killing people.

Sexual material is overrated form me, who watches porn? I don't but teens do through all of this years usually boys in their teen age are the ones who peruse porn for reasons we all know, we also know why some adults do but lets not get down to that.

What I'm trying to say is that porn is there for the ones who want to see it, what difference does it make if a small reference is in a game really, is just sex people, something we all have done or we will do at some point anyway, while as Krawnik puts it the violent things that are included in the game is something that most of us will never do.

I personally even look forward to this mini game lol it will add in the already tremendous lifespan of San Andreas, because is just a game people don't be prudes, just let the parents know to stop living in the seventies or sixties or whatever was their era and look at the world now, VIDEO GAMES ARE NOT A TOY ^&$&^*^%, they are a form of media you silly buffoons stop blaming the games and look at the damn society you fricking live in!!

As for good old Hilary:

Quote:

Let's all focus on the real agenda of Mrs. Clinton, and that is just for her to get her name out as a politician who is pro-family to further her political career.


Exactly...

Sorry if I sounded I bit mad, but I am with parents and this scapegoat society, I'm pretty sure if this Yee fellow or little old Hilary actually played San Andreas they may even enjoy it, because you know what?

It's a damn game.
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Sage

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 1:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I can't say whether or not this new legislation will work. I don't know if it will even get through. Quite frankly, I don't care since I'm old enough to buy whatever video game I please. I have gotten carded at movie theaters for R movies (Last time was for Constantine, I was and still am 20) but have never been carded for buying M games or renting R movies. So statistically speaking from my own experience, nope, not likely to work.

As for Rockstar, John's thoughts and mine are quite similar.
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Filipe

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 6:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The legislation wont work because they have been putting restrictions on games for god knows how many years now, and it hasnt done jack squat. Do I think it's rather stupid, not to mention tasteless to put something like this into a game not only people over 18 play? Yeah, I think they were just trying to push some buttons because they knew they could.

The game industry has essentially been giving goverments the proverbial "one finger salute" since the whole rating system was put into play. Putting hidden things in the games which go past the whole rating system, because most people who rate these games probably dont bother looking hard enough. It's sad that games have had these things put in when few games ever need it to sell copies. You have to wonder what the heck the programmers were thinking considering I am sure the Playstation 2 version sold just fine and dandy without this code. Unless I am mistaken and it has it as well so feel free to correct me on that.

Do I think the rating system sometimes goes too far with things? Of course I do, but that doesnt change the fact that in a lot of cases it's needed. The gaming industry needs a watchdog to make sure it doesnt go straight into basically adult only gaming due to it's content while still selling to children under false pretenses. Just like Goverment needs us to keep them in check when it comes to elections they need to keep us, and various other industries in check as well. This transends Democrats and Republicans even though most people are concerned with other things regardless.

When it comes to creating violence through violent video games it's absolutely rediculous. Video games dont make people violent, they merely show it, and use it for the sense of entertainment that television does. Neither makes people commit violence but like someone mentioned earlier lack of parenting combined with exposure to violence outside of and inside of the home does. What do you think has more of an effect on the human psyche? Watching violence on television or seeing it happen every day in the streets somewhere? In rougher neighborhoods there are gangs, and such everywhere commiting violent crimes which people take notice of. Why dont the goverments turn their attention to stopping those problems? I cant speak for that but I'm sure they have their reasons.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 10:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

San Andreas id the best GTA game yet, they have where you can do so much stuff in that game now, only thing I REALLY hate about that game is, the plane school, that is hard as hell to pass, I cant even pass to the missions in Los Venturas..
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Kekoa Alejandro

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Video games are a medium; any medium is innocent. It is not the message, it is the messenger. What you choose to do with them is something else entirely. I certainly believe that video game developers have the right to produce mature and even adult material, *but* - as with movies, books, and so on - these materials must be restricted to those old enough to deal with them.

Yes, those warnings have been on games. That's certainly true, and it's a good thing. The problem often is that parents don't notice, or don't care - in those situations there's nothing we can do. But the problem is when the kids have their own money (which they often do at a fairly young age) and the retailers sell them things that are grossly out of their age range. I've seen it happen - and when I do, I definitely make my objections known - but irresponsible retailers let this stuff happen, which makes watch-dog groups go nuts, which hurts the industry as a whole.

If the only way to get them to stop doing it is to have it be a real legal issue, I say "Heck yeah". In my area, police started doing sting operations at retailers to see if they would sell alcohol to minors about fifteen years ago. At the time, there was a 50% failure rate. Now the retailers have a near perfect record. See, the threat of losing your license to sell cigarettes and alcohol is a pretty big motivator; it doesn't hurt that whoever actually sold it to the kids is forever charged with having illegal dealings with a minor, and thus can never be employed in any career dealing with them. I imagine that having your right to sell a certain class of video games would do the same...? Where I work, the rules about selling cigarettes and alcohol are stringent indeed, and we have *no* motivation to sell to those who are underage or even have the *possibility* of being underaged. The increase in sales is not worth the significant risk of legal repercussions. We card anyone who appears to be 30 or under, we're told to err on the side of caution, we have the right to refuse a sale if we have any ill feelings, and we only take in-state licenses (although passports are okay, since we're familiar with their appearance). A local grocery store has started carding everyone regardless of age. This sort of thing could happen with video games, and I have no objections to it.
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Raze

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Filipe wrote:
The game industry has essentially been giving goverments the proverbial "one finger salute" since the whole rating system was put into play.


Actually, it's quite the opposite. The gaming industry appreciates the ESRB rating system. Why? Because before that, each gaming company was trying to 'rate' their games based on a biased point of view, and nobody knew where the lines were drawn clearly. The differences between the ratings for the games were pretty drastic, and so there was chaos. From that chaos, it bred problems for the gaming industry; problems like Sen. Joe Lieberman. He Ruthlessly attacked the industry, saying that it was corrupt (a falsehood) and out of control (more or less on the money), and that if they couldn't find a way to get their act together, it was going to be over. From that, came the ESRB. Now, the gaming industry uses the ESRB as a shield and basically saying "Well, if it's so horrible, why is it only rated M?"

Filipe wrote:
Putting hidden things in the games which go past the whole rating system, because most people who rate these games probably dont bother looking hard enough.


Actually, the way the ESRB is run, the ones who deal out the ratings don't even play the games. What they do is collect a fair and balanced (I hope) collection of the American public: teachers, doctors, parents, ect. They will then show them a video given to them by the developers of their most raunchy/controversial scenarios the game has to offer. The newly formed board then puts forth thier rating.

Now, with that information in place, what if perhaps, this whole thing with GTA is that that scene was originally in the game, and they showed it to the pannel and whatnot and got an AO rating. They don't want that, because they can't sell that game in any stores anywhere in the US. So instead of telling programmers to go into the code and remove it from the game (quite the troublesome proposal, as games take millions of lines of code that look similar...) they instead ask them to build a 'wall' of coding around it, so that it is impossible to find it inside a normal game. This would certainly make sense based on how you have to make a long long list of codes over and over. (about an hours worth, so i'm told)

So perhaps it's not put in there with malicious intent, but rather, out of laziness of the company?
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Raze

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

PirateSigurd wrote:
San Andreas id the best GTA game yet, they have where you can do so much stuff in that game now, only thing I REALLY hate about that game is, the plane school, that is hard as hell to pass, I cant even pass to the missions in Los Venturas..


Apparently, my good sir, either you cannot read correctly, or you did not read the original post in the least.

Futch wrote:
Well, in this topic we aren't going to discuss "how grt iz to ply gta san andreas" my friends, we are going to discuss this:

http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/07/14/news_6129040.html


the next time that you post, make sure that you give posts relevant to the topic at hand.
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Krawnik

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Isn't that the pot calling the kettle black, mr. double post?

Anyway, I agree with PalominoMule, with his whole "sting operation" thing that sounds really cool. Now that I'm 18, I don't care who's not allowed to buy a certain rating of video game, because I can have them all! Mwahaha. Selfish, I know, but hey. I'm now at the vantage point where, according to the government at least, I can handle all that stoof. And now I can look back at how I was in grade 9 and think, "woah, do not let kids that age play San Andreas. Because if other kids are anything like I was, they're all idiots. Dangerous idiots."

So if proper legal restriction is the only way to get ol' Hilary off the backs of the gaming industry, I say let it be so! It makes more sense legally and it'll make it harder for lame parents to use video games as a scapegoat.
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