Suikoden Ugly and Inspirational Kraalesque Original Xperience

Suikox Home | The Speculation Shelter | Tablet of Stars | Suikoden Timeline | Suikoden Geography |Legacies


  [ View Profile | Edit Profile | Nation System | Members | Groups | Search | Register | Check PMs | Log in | FAQ ]

African Aid and the G-8
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic     Forum Index -> Community Forum
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Kalidor

Blazing Conflagration


Joined: 04 May 2005
Post Count: 1538
Location: Valley of the Winds
1542036 Potch
308 Soldiers
0 Nation Points

PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 10:13 pm    Post subject: African Aid and the G-8 Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

As I'm sure many of you know, the G-8 has been meeting for the past days in Scotland to discuss various matters, amongst them the issue of Africa, and how it can be helped to escape the crushing grip of debt and poverty. Though the summit has been marred by the tragedy of the London terrorist attacks (and I offer my deepest, most heartfelt condolences to any that were effected by those attacks) the meeting is now down, and the G-8 has unveiled a plan to double aid to Africa, up to fifty billion US dollars by 2010. Aid has also been promised to the Palestinian Authority, in the amount of three billion, in the hopes of resolving some of the differences between Palestinians and Israelis. There are other elements involved as well, such as new trade arrangements between the G-8 nations and African nations, as well as debt cancellation for some of the poorer countries that meet certain requirements in terms of human rights.

I believe that the news from the G-8 is good news, and a step in the right direction, but is that step big enough? Africa is in a whole that it cannot get out of by itself; many countries are so debt ridden that much of their GDP goes simply to paying down interest on their loans so that they do not sink any deeper in debt. I think the G-8 is in a position to do something momentus, something that would be a truly positive change for the world. However, it is not to be. There is no questioning that 50 billion is a large sum of money, at least for all appearances. However, this 50 billion is going to be split up between many of the countries of Africa. I don't know how many countries will be benefitting, but even if it is just twenty countires, that leaves little more than two billion dollars per country, hardly enough to have much of a meaningful impact. It seems like an even more paltry sum when you think that these countries are paying far far more than that every year into the pockets of such organizations as the World Bank for interest payments.

More promising is the possibility of debt forgiveness for countries wracked by debt. Aid is all well and good, but it doesn't help in the long run if the country still has that looming debt. I think that debt reduction is something that has waited far too long to happen. It is apparent that many of these African countries will never be able to pay back their debt, leaving debt forgiveness as one of the few hopes of prosperity. Debt reduction would do things that simple aid money can never do. Aid can help an immediate situation, but it doesn't help a country to get back on its feet again. These countries need to be able to use their GDP to build infrastructure and social programs within their own borders. Without having to pay back debt, these countries will have a chance to do so, and may be able to stand on their own without foreign aid. That isn't to say that aid isn't a good thing; on the contrary we in the western world should do as much as we can. It must be part of a larger plan that will allow the countries to grow on their own though. It is a means to an end, not the end in itself.

I think that there is hope on the horizon for Africa. The G-8 is surely in the position to make some of that hope more real, but I fear that it won't be so. I will start to feel better about things when I hear of what the aid money is doing, or that a country is now debt free. It cannot happen too soon though. AIDS, poverty, famine, all of these are killing thousands every day. I just hope that the G-8 can find the will to do something about it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tendou Souji

CLIMAX JUMP!


Joined: 12 Mar 2005
Post Count: 2421
Location: Qella Sarapa
758170 Potch
2000 Soldiers
2225 Nation Points

PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I feel that it is not enough. Africa is such a big place with many-many problems such as poverty, famine etc. And so many citizens also. But, least we forget there is still hope to save africa.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
St. Ajora

SOUL PATROL!


Joined: 19 Dec 2004
Post Count: 917
Location: Caldeaux
-98944 Potch
-54 Soldiers
0 Nation Points

PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:
I believe that the news from the G-8 is good news, and a step in the right direction, but is that step big enough?


I'm a bit skeptical myself. I was told by a rabid G8 supporter that all of Africa's countries debts were going to be cancelled (trillions of dollars waved away? Right), and 50 billion in aid was going to be given (when millions of dollars each year is spent on war in certain countries, how the hell is 50 billion dollars going to provide relief?). I did *not* know thatup to 50 billion was going to be given by 2010. To me, that's just not enough. I mean, great support there (at least it's something) but these countries need more than people signing a petition, they need more money, and they need people to step in there and show them how it's done. I'd love to go to an African country and just...help. Distribute clothing, food, whatever. That's what also needs to be done, and that's where the lack of support is. It's great that people are taking notice when it's convenient for them, but with this G8 thing, I think that's exactly what's happening...they sign a petition and think that they're doing good int he world, and I argue that there is so so so much more to be done but nobody seems to listen..hopefully there will be more people that do so, now.

Quote:
There is no questioning that 50 billion is a large sum of money, at least for all appearances. However, this 50 billion is going to be split up between many of the countries of Africa. I don't know how many countries will be benefitting, but even if it is just twenty countires, that leaves little more than two billion dollars per country, hardly enough to have much of a meaningful impact.


Exactly! let's praise our world leaders and forget about the minor details...this is the message being sent to me.

Quote:
Aid can help an immediate situation, but it doesn't help a country to get back on its feet again.


You're right. It's just a bandaid solution. Give a homeless man food, but in the end he's still homeless....I know it's incredibly selfish of me to say that though. Anything, even temp solutions are better than nothing for these innocent people...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
Tron Bonne

The party members you never use


Joined: 19 May 2005
Post Count: 12363
Location: Ceresfjellet
579843 Potch
1000 Soldiers
7777 Nation Points

PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I found this article on why Africa shouldn't be given any Aid. you can read it here.

my stance isn't that Africa shouldn't get some aid, but who gave President Bush the Authority to just write a check to Africa? Last I checked, Congress has the right to appropriate funds. But what do I know? I'm not a politician. I must not be smart enough to understand why Bush can do whatever he wants.

on the other hand, the Aid doesn't reach those who need it, so what's the point?
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
Lunarblade

White Wolf Templars


Joined: 02 Aug 2004
Post Count: 2081
Location: L'renouille
1428 Potch
0 Soldiers
0 Nation Points

PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 11:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:

my stance isn't that Africa shouldn't get some aid, but who gave President Bush the Authority to just write a check to Africa? Last I checked, Congress has the right to appropriate funds.

Well, most likely the Republican Party will go along with what he wants to do. To be honest though, Bush is in a vice in that issue, because if he doesn't give any aid people will just get on his back again.

Really though, we can give all the aid to Africa that we can handle, but it won't do anything if it remains ruled by despots and madmen. They'll just squander it. Witness what Saddam Hussein and his cronies did with the funds he was appropriated for "humanitarian" reasons. The main solution for Africa, in this case, has to come from within. It is unfortunate, but unless we overthrow every corrupt regime there (highly, highly unlikely), it's the way things will have to be.
_________________

Sinocard wrote:
I dont think I am above women, I think I am above everyone.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Wataru

The Light Fantastic


Joined: 11 Apr 2005
Post Count: 2105

59113 Potch
0 Soldiers
515589 Nation Points

PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I agree strongly with Lunarblade. Africa's biggest problem is its own governments. Hardly any of the nations of Africa have traditions of peaceful transitions of power and a huge amount of the aid given is simply snatched up by military regimes and never gets to the people it is supposed to help.

Let me further illustrate. When I was in college I participated in something called a "hunger banquet." People paid admission ($10 per person, I believe) to support the UN's famine relief program and get a "traditional African dinner." There were 100 diners and a group of six people from the theatre department who were there to do the demonstration (myself included).

The 100 diners drew cards when they came to the doors. Out of the 100, 5 drew the right card and were "the rich." They got to eat a wonderful dinner of chicken and vegetables and dessert in an air-conditioned elegant dining room. The other 95 were "the poor" and were made to stand in a big line where they would be given white rice served on a banana leaf and a half a glass of water. The pot of white rice would have served about 50 comfortably.

This is where it started to become indicative of Africa's problems. All women, anyone under the age of 16, and any male not judged to be physically fit enough for military service was removed from the line and placed on the end. The six actors (as the military/government) were served first and were given double portions. The rest of the men were given half portions. By the time the women and others reached the end of the line there was only enough food for about 10 of them. The rest got no food. All of the poor had to eat sitting on the hardwood floor with no air conditioning.

At this point, any member of the "military" who wanted more could simply walk up to anyone with food and take as much of their food as they liked, saying "it was for the success of our glorious leader's military forces." Military members could also get back in line as often as they wanted and cut in front of whomever they liked.

This process represented the natural food supply and distribution in Africa.

After food was served, there were speeches and discussions about Third World aid and the United Nations' efforts. On four occasions plates containing the food items the "rich" received were brought in, representing aid. The first three were immediately taken by the military. I don't like peas, so I threw the peas from my plate on the floor in case any of the poor wanted them. No one took any, but the speaker mentioned that in Africa, people would be crawling over each other to get what the military had thrown away. The fourth was cut up and distributed evenly to the remaining diners (representing the aid that gets through). Each person got half a teaspoon of rice and one green bean.

Forgiving all the debt in the world and sending all the handouts you can from here to Kingdom Come won't do a lick of good in Africa as long as military and totalitarian regimes are the norm there.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Tron Bonne

The party members you never use


Joined: 19 May 2005
Post Count: 12363
Location: Ceresfjellet
579843 Potch
1000 Soldiers
7777 Nation Points

PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Amen, wataru14. Africa doesn't need aid, it needs economic and govornment reform. No matter how much money you throw their way, none of it will reach the people.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
Sophita

The Wee Kitty Grand Duke Defense Brigade


Joined: 13 May 2004
Post Count: 4744
Location: Reina Mia
498078 Potch
1330 Soldiers
2725 Nation Points

PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 2:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

To me it sounds like a lot of talk but not a lot of progress. 2010? If time is of the essence then why can't they do it now? They're throwing millions of dollars away on pork projects but they can't double aid to africa until 2010? If it is so important to them, then why the long wait?

Africa needs aid just as much as it needs government reform, but I think the government reform needs to come first to ensure that people are honestly going to get it. Unfortunately, though, aid won't solve everything - as The badguy from Tron's link points out, swamping Africa with so much aid that African merchants, farmers, etc. can't keep up isn't going to work well; it just turns Africa into a beggar state. (Not to mention that a lot of that, people don't even *get* thanks to corrpupt governments.) Africa needs to be primarily saved by Africans, but I do think that there's no reason that other areas in the world who are better off financially can't try to help them. They just have to figure out a way to do so without hurting them, and commit to it if they wish to.
_________________

SCII month continues! DueFiumi.com
John Layfield wrote:
But bubbles... children love bubbles! XD
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
Tendou Souji

CLIMAX JUMP!


Joined: 12 Mar 2005
Post Count: 2421
Location: Qella Sarapa
758170 Potch
2000 Soldiers
2225 Nation Points

PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 7:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The badguy from Tron wrote:
Amen, wataru14. Africa doesn't need aid, it needs economic and govornment reform. No matter how much money you throw their way, none of it will reach the people.


That is what i am afraid of. Dunno why i didn't post about it even though i thought about it while attempting to reply. I guess my brain's gone fuzzy again. The continent itself and countries forming it can only be saved by establishing a better goverment. The people aren't actually facing those many problems. They're only facing oppression.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kuwaizair

blauuurgggh!


Joined: 22 May 2004
Post Count: 3427
Location: Plaats
174392 Potch
0 Soldiers
1291 Nation Points

PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I have't been following up much, but are there exact countries that are being targeted for aid? But I also think just handing out some cash won't help, I'm a sick person and assume we can help a lot of peole thorugh "cultural emperilsm" meaning "you are in a bad spot because you are doing it wrong," if some does it better then you have others do it, then again when you dominate pepole like that they dont know what to do with themselfs, thus put themselfs into a bad spot.

what about poverty in one' s own nation? maybe its not as bad, so we should forget our own people and help strangers. thats what being human is all about. ditch your family and go help somone you don't know, work to support your own kind and give it to somone esle.

I don't know. we need to solve the problems differntly. there only so much hand outs that can help.
so they owe us? and we say "oh you don't have to pay us anymore" is that it or " heck well give you all you need and you don't need a thing"?

*srugs*
_________________
few runes short of a set of 27

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
St. Ajora

SOUL PATROL!


Joined: 19 Dec 2004
Post Count: 917
Location: Caldeaux
-98944 Potch
-54 Soldiers
0 Nation Points

PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

That article and the dinner example were very interesting, I'm glad they were shared. It gave me more insight as to what is really going on there...it just leaves me speechless.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
Kalidor

Blazing Conflagration


Joined: 04 May 2005
Post Count: 1538
Location: Valley of the Winds
1542036 Potch
308 Soldiers
0 Nation Points

PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I too really appreciated the example of the African dinner. It really is a great idea to give a more clear cut example of what things can really be like for these poor countries. It's one thing to hear about it and see it on television, quite another to actually live it. If only more people would get involved with these sorts of activities it might raise awareness to a point where more people are concerned about the real issues.

I think there have been several good points raised about the necessity of aid to Africa, and the link from The Badguy from Tron is an interesting one as well. It certainly presents a perspective that we don't often hear. I don't agree with everything said there, namely that UN organizations want to keep giving aid so that they wont be out of a job. I think their motivations are a little more benign than that. However, corrupt government and military officials taking the money and food that comes in doesn't do anything to help the plight of the country. Even then though, some of that food and money gets through. I know that perhaps sending aid is helping to fund these corrupt regimes, but if even some of it gets through to help the people that really need it, could that make it worthwhile? It's a tough question and one that I cannot answer definitively. If one child is saved from starvation and a dictator is funded with thousands of dollars...is the life of the child worth it? I'd have to say yes, but I'm sure others would disagree with me, saying that the greater good is not served.

I do agree that aid is only a bandaid solution though. Social and political environments will need to change before any real reform can happen. That is what is most promising about the debt elimination idea. I believe that there are a set of very stringent requirements as to what countries are eligible to receive the debt reduction. For example, I think they have to have some level of demovractic government, and a good record on human rights. Unfortunately, I can't seem to find anything at the moment to back that up, but I'm quite sure that is what was said on the news. In any case, I would hope that it is so, or else we have the same problem as sending aid to these countries; the governments in power and the military benefitting, while the people do not.

Kuwaizair wrote:
what about poverty in one' s own nation? maybe its not as bad, so we should forget our own people and help strangers. thats what being human is all about. ditch your family and go help somone you don't know, work to support your own kind and give it to somone esle.


This is another point that I have heard brought up by many many people as well, and I think that it does hold a lot of merit. Even the developed countries of the G-8 have poor and needy that could use a helping hand. It may not be on the same level as Africa, but that doesn't make the situation any less desperate for those that are living in it. I think that African aid receives more attention, because it figures more prominently on the global scale. If you are helping a country where the people are so visibly destitute, you seem like a better person. Whereas if you are just helping out the poor on the streets of New York, or Toronto, no one will really stand up and take notice outside of those areas. It's selfish, but that's the way it goes. It isn't like there isn't money to be used for both. According to [url=http://www.cdi.org/issues/budget/fy'02/index.html]this[/url] website on military spending, in the 2002 fiscal year, the US government requested 342.3 billion dollars in funding. 342.3 billion. That's six times more than a group of eight nations feel they can muster for African aid. And used on what? Buying weapons and training soldiers, all for the sake of national defense I suppose. To me it seems a gross misuse of funds. Why would you spend so much on being able to kill people, when that money could help to promote life? It's a sad facet of the world we live in, I suppose. That doesn't mean that I have to like it, or think that it's right though.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
St. Ajora

SOUL PATROL!


Joined: 19 Dec 2004
Post Count: 917
Location: Caldeaux
-98944 Potch
-54 Soldiers
0 Nation Points

PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:
what about poverty in one' s own nation? maybe its not as bad, so we should forget our own people and help strangers. thats what being human is all about. ditch your family and go help somone you don't know, work to support your own kind and give it to somone esle


That may be true, but I wouldn't necessarily go so far as to say it's "ditching" your family. I would like to think that I would step up and help a poor starving child on a weak continent, than my own family. Why? There is so much here. I watched a documentary in which two Canadian woman initially complained about how Canada ignores it's NFLD homeless, to give AID to other countries. They were flown to India, and that's when it hit them that, things are so much more worse in a country like that, than rich, and prosperous Canada. Children being paid 75 cents a day to dispose and clean up used syringes and needles, with no gloves, medical protection whatsoever. Children charging adults their seats on trains, to make a living. Children not knowing school, education or a fun childhood. Women having acid poured down their throats by their abusive husbands, and police standing by and doing nothing about their society because they are a corrupt force. This is what they saw. And needless to say, they were much more sober upon returning to their home country. Now would I ditch paying a few dollars to my family here in Canada, to sponser a child or a program there? You bet I would.

Mind you, I am not implying that women in Canada do not have abusive husbands, nor that children are all being educated and enjoying their youth. There are so many bad things happening here to, but on such a small scale compared to eastern countries. It's like...we have these opportunities, a chance. And in those cases, I believe that it's okay to look past your home and have a taste of the utter despair that other countries wallow in.

I'd also like to touch upon your "own kind" comment. Aren't we all human? Don't we all have a right to live, love and pursue happiness? To be free? To be educated? I don't consider Canadians or Nova Scotians "my kind", nor do I consider any child thousands of miles away different from me just because they are less fortunate. We can start to help someone far away from us by thinking of them as equal, as no different, no less deserving than us.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
Sage

The Invincible Weeds


Joined: 22 Nov 2004
Post Count: 15653
Location: Blight's Bay
803820 Potch
0 Soldiers
2 Nation Points

PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

First, I'd like to start with a grossly exaggerated hypothetical story to illustrate what aid is doing to Africa economically. Suppose you have a kid and he's going to have to run a marathon when he's 20. Now everytime he cries when he wants to go from point A to point B, you pick him and carry him. If you never make him walk on his own, when the marathon time comes around, he can't do it. The sooner you make him walk on his own the better. The longer we send aid to Africa, the worse its economy is going to become: more dependent, more in debt, and lower GDP. It's not just money either as The badguy from Tron's link showed. I cannot comment on whether or not they give aid to secure their own jobs. Only they can say for sure, but I'm certain it's crossed at least one person's mind. And one last economic point: it's not cost-effective nor economically beneficial to eliminate all poverty/pollution/crime.

Working at JPL has given me a sorta inside look at government funding (note that I'm not trying to come off as snobby). First, I'd like to point out that JPL is not NASA-run. It's not a government facility. It's operated by the California Institute of Technology (Caltech) and is a government contractor. Granted, they get the lion's share, but they are not NASA. Anyway, NASA's budget is $15B I believe which is nothing when you consider that every Mars mission costs $2-4B and every shuttle launch is half million I think (don't quote me on that last one). If the defense department didn't get that money, we may not be here discussing this (possible exaggeration). I guess my point is government spending on anything else is paltry and we just have to live with it.

I noticed that there are 2 conflicting views here. Kalidor for instance is looking at this from a high level. "We are all people" kind of view. I look at this on a lower level. Personally, I would help a friend before a stranger and a fellow American before an African. (Assuming that that was all I was to base my decision on, don't get mad). Neither view is better in an absolute sense, even though I think mine is. In order to argue any of these points we much approach these on similar metrics for measuring the argument which is impossible in this last example.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
St. Ajora

SOUL PATROL!


Joined: 19 Dec 2004
Post Count: 917
Location: Caldeaux
-98944 Potch
-54 Soldiers
0 Nation Points

PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

To be honest with you, I think that both are good choices...it all depends on your perspective. It's natural to care for those around you, than to think of others that may be strangers and to give to them. But it can go the other way too (as noted).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic     Forum Index -> Community Forum All times are GMT - 4 Hours
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
Page 1 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
suikox.com by: Vextor


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
  Username:    Password:      Remember me